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sticky bolt and pressure signs on savage model 14

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 09:17
jladams View Drop Down
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I have a dangerous problem with my new Savage. Using Winchester BST 130gn factory loaded ammo I am getting dangerous pressure signs. The bolt at times if near impossible to open taking maybe 20 pounds of force, the primers are flattened, there are bad ejector and extractor marks on the case.

I just tried a different brand of ammo (federal powershok 130gn) and could not duplicate these issues with 2 shots fired. 

Should I return the rifle to Savage, or is the Winchester ammo the real problem?

Thanks,

Jack Adams
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more than likely what your looking like is a large chamber, not pressure. Factory loads are made to min. dimension in order to chamber in every rifle out there. If you have a max, chamber dimension condition, the firing pin will push the load forward until it contacts the rifling or shoulder, and as ignition occurs, the primer is pushed out of the pocket and flattens on bolt face, and as the pressure increases it pushes the case back against the ejector marking it. Now that the rim and base are semi, stuck in the bolt face the bolt face has difficulty rotating with case attached.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 09:42
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That is exactly what I was thinking. Now, the questions is, is this an issue with the rifle to be addressed by Savage or is it an issue with the ammo to be addressed by that manufacturer? I could not duplicate this problem with another brand of factory ammo.

Jack
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 10:01
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A good smith can quickly tell you all about the chamber.  Take the rifle and a case to a smith and ask him (or her, I guess chicks too can be good smiths.  Sorry for being sexist.)

It might be that your one brand of ammo runs hot, it might be that the chamber is loose.  You will not definitively be able to answer this question till someone looks at your chamber.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 11:30
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If the chanber is large or the head space is excessive I would be talking to Savage to replace it. That would make it difficult to get good accuracy with those problems.
Duce Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 13:51
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Update: My Dad just checked to rifle ( a gun smith in his own right, closed his business years ago). His opinion is that the Winchester ammo I was trying is the problem. It does not fit the chamber properly, and may even be loaded too hot. However, the Federal ammo is functioning flawlessly - no tight bolt, extractor marks, ejector marks, or anything whatsoever.

I am still going to contact Savage as well as Winchester about this. 

Thanks,

Jack
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 13:55
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Good luck.

It always sucks when things don't function as they should.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 14:01
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if possible mike the distance from the base to the start of the shoulder, between a new win round, a fired win round and a new fed round, bet you see quite a difference.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/16/2009 at 22:27
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OK. Here is what I got.

Federal Unfired: 1.650"
Federal Fired:     1.657"

Winchester Unfired: 1.661"
Winchester Fired:     1.662"

To my less than experience eyes, that looks like a big difference to me. The Winchester unfired brass is 11 thousandths longer to the start of the shoulder??? Could this be the problem?

Jack

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

if possible mike the distance from the base to the start of the shoulder, between a new win round, a fired win round and a new fed round, bet you see quite a difference.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2009 at 09:08
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Ignore those numbers. My calipers are no good. I am going to re-measure with a good set of calipers and see what I get.

Also, I called Savage and the lady listened to me, then simply said to send in the rifle so they could take a look. I guess the lawyers prevent her from saying anything else.

Jack

Originally posted by jladams jladams wrote:

OK. Here is what I got.

Federal Unfired: 1.650"
Federal Fired:     1.657"

Winchester Unfired: 1.661"
Winchester Fired:     1.662"

To my less than experience eyes, that looks like a big difference to me. The Winchester unfired brass is 11 thousandths longer to the start of the shoulder??? Could this be the problem?

Jack

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

if possible mike the distance from the base to the start of the shoulder, between a new win round, a fired win round and a new fed round, bet you see quite a difference.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2009 at 09:17
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Originally posted by jladams jladams wrote:

Ignore those numbers. My calipers are no good. I am going to re-measure with a good set of calipers and see what I get.

Also, I called Savage and the lady listened to me, then simply said to send in the rifle so they could take a look. I guess the lawyers prevent her from saying anything else.

Jack

Originally posted by jladams jladams wrote:

OK. Here is what I got.

Federal Unfired: 1.650"
Federal Fired:     1.657"

Winchester Unfired: 1.661"
Winchester Fired:     1.662"

To my less than experience eyes, that looks like a big difference to me. The Winchester unfired brass is 11 thousandths longer to the start of the shoulder??? Could this be the problem?

Jack

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

if possible mike the distance from the base to the start of the shoulder, between a new win round, a fired win round and a new fed round, bet you see quite a difference.
 
 Forget trying to measure cases with a calipers. That won't cut it.
 Your situation requires headspace gages and a cartridge case gage in the hands of a barrelmaker or riflesmith to tell you what's going on.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2009 at 09:55
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indeed --the additional length of the case is quite evident.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2009 at 09:56
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this is exactly the technique used to make some wild cat cases, the 204 ruger from 222 mag cases is the first that comes to mind,.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2009 at 12:51
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

indeed --the additional length of the case is quite evident.
 
-If he had measured them accurately. (Which he later admitted that he did not.)
 
 That measurement is largely irrelevant anyway, because proper case length as it concerns headspacing is determined at a datum line  part way up the shoulder on rimless cases, and not at the start of the shoulder.
 
The shoulder angle and the case length to the start of the shoulder can vary considerably between brands or lots of cartridges, yet both could still headspace in the chamber correctly and safely, depending on shoulder ANGLE.  Ackley Improved chambers able to safely fire factory ammo prove this point.
 
All I'm saying is that the OP needs to consult a gunsmith on this one before trashing a brand or lot of ammo. Both rifle and ammo should be checked out hands on by a knowledgable shooter, and preferably a gunsmith.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 22:19
jladams View Drop Down
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I am not trashing anyone. I am just trying to figure this our. The rifle is going back to savage alond with  a sampling of each of the fired rounds ( I can't send live ammo with the gun).

I logged in tonight to post the following additional information:

Each one of the Winchester BRASS cases from the 150 grain loads shows that the case necks extended into and was engraved by the rifling.

Each one of the Winchester nickle plated cases from the 130 grain loads show a crimp around the end of the case neck. 

The Federal cases show no such signs. I am not blaming the ammo or the rifle yet, but it is obvious that something is not right. Also, Savage test fires this particular rifle using Winchester 130 grain Ballistic Silvertips according to the manual (also on the website). When I learned this I decided that rather than having a local gunsmith look at the rifle, I should definitely return it to Savage for inspection as it is still under warranty and one of the type of ammo that is giving me problems is the same ammo they tested the rifle with (or were supposed to anyway).

I am not sure where in any of my previous posts how you gleaned that I "trashed" anyone. I am just looking for and gathering information. 

Jack
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2009 at 08:04
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I had the exact same problem with a Win. 70 Classic Sporter in 7mm Rem. Mag.  Chamber was too long.  Sent it back and they rebarreled it and sent it back.  Of course this was back before they went under.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 15:25
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Someone suggested to me to check the headspace by applying scotch tape 1 layer at a time to the case head (properly trimmed around the case head of course) and see how many layers it takes before the bolt become difficult to close.

I just tried that and it took 6 layers which measured out to 0.014". I tried the same trick with my Tikka 300wsm using Win XP3 150 grain 300 wsm rounds using the same 6 layers of tape and there is no way you could even begin to close the bolt.

I could still close the bolt on the 270 with only moderate resistance.

Ideas?

Jack
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 18:49
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So, I think I may indeed have a head space issue.

On yet another whim I decided to try to chamber my 270wsm rounds in my Tikka 300wsm, (not fire them of course.) They chamber easily, but the fired 270wsm cases will not chamber at all in the 300 wsm.

Jack
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/03/2009 at 12:45
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Interesting stuff. I have an older Steyr Model L in a .6mm Rem that was given to me and I have always had trouble with the bolt locking up immediately after a shot. I wonder if it's a similar issue.........does not matter what brand of ammo. And the bolt will open easily after a minute or two ....but will barely budge immediately after a shot ! Makes follow up shots almost impossible ! Wonder if it's a head space issue ??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/03/2009 at 18:06
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Originally posted by jladams jladams wrote:

I am not trashing anyone. I am just trying to figure this our. The rifle is going back to savage alond with  a sampling of each of the fired rounds ( I can't send live ammo with the gun).

I logged in tonight to post the following additional information:

Each one of the Winchester BRASS cases from the 150 grain loads shows that the case necks extended into and was engraved by the rifling.

Each one of the Winchester nickle plated cases from the 130 grain loads show a crimp around the end of the case neck. 

The Federal cases show no such signs. I am not blaming the ammo or the rifle yet, but it is obvious that something is not right. Also, Savage test fires this particular rifle using Winchester 130 grain Ballistic Silvertips according to the manual (also on the website). When I learned this I decided that rather than having a local gunsmith look at the rifle, I should definitely return it to Savage for inspection as it is still under warranty and one of the type of ammo that is giving me problems is the same ammo they tested the rifle with (or were supposed to anyway).

I am not sure where in any of my previous posts how you gleaned that I "trashed" anyone. I am just looking for and gathering information. 

Jack
 Well, this is leaning in that direction:
 
Originally posted by jladams jladams wrote:

Update: My Dad just checked to rifle ( a gun smith in his own right, closed his business years ago). His opinion is that the Winchester ammo I was trying is the problem. It does not fit the chamber properly, and may even be loaded too hot. However, the Federal ammo is functioning flawlessly - no tight bolt, extractor marks, ejector marks, or anything whatsoever.

I am still going to contact Savage as well as Winchester about this. 

Thanks,

Jack
 
At any rate, I was only trying to get you to have a gunsmith  examine the chamber before blaming the ammo by taking irrelevant measurements of it, etc.
I sure didn't didn't mean any offense, just worded my response poorly. Sorry. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/03/2009 at 18:11
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 And yes, you do have a serious problem, somewhere, if the neck of the brass is engraved with rifling marks!
 I wouldn't be surprised if your barrel is stamped with a different cartridge than it's actually chambered for if it's doing that.
 
Please don't fire it again until you get to the bottom of this situation.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/04/2009 at 18:08
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Went back to Savage today. I will update when I hear from them. 

Thank you for your help. I was not offended.

Jack
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 10:27
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UPDATE:
 
Savage is returning my rifle today. They said they replaced the bolt body and polished the chamber but offered no further explanation.
 
Jack
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 11:21
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Originally posted by jladams jladams wrote:

UPDATE:
 
Savage is returning my rifle today. They said they replaced the bolt body and polished the chamber but offered no further explanation.
 
Jack
Thats cause they are covering their arse!  It was most likely chambered in the wrong caliper than it was stamped.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2010 at 15:54
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 I wonder what prompted them to replace the bolt body?
 This is a weird situation, and I hope it's all fixed now.
 
 Did I spell "weird" correctly?
 
  For some reason it looks...well, weird!
 
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