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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 14:23
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What steps do you take to get better accuracy?  Do you start with a specific bullet and then try different powders first.  Do you start with a bullet and then try different amounts of powder.  Do you start with a specific powder and amount, and first try different bullets.  In other words,  what do you try first and second and third?  I imaging primers and distances to the lands would come later than trying different powders and amounts of powders.  I'm just wondering where to start and what to finish up with.  thanks.   
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sometimes the entire project can be geared around just the bullet-- say a long range target bullet or a hunting bullet. Reloading has been around for a while a certain combinations are known not to work. Combining this with the intended project will narrow things down pretty fast. On the other hand -- there may be a special old rifle you just want to spend some time with. This approach, is then different, as it tries many combinations of powder, bullets brands. When I first started you could by 20 lb kegs of 4895 for about $50-- then you would make a gun that would in all likely -hood shoot this powder. The finishing pt. is different also with each project and it is not always accuracy. It may be acceptable accuracy in a semi, but reliability is paramount. Sometimes it can be velocity. If you start shooting in any kind of competitive event, the course of fire will determine the level of the reload.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 13:59
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Thanks Dale.  The reason I ask is that Game and Fish cashed my elk application check, so I believe that I got drawn for bull elk this year.  I'm gonna use my 338 win and nosler partition 225 gr bullets.  I'm gonna buy a box of 50 bullets, and, cause their expensive use 15 or so in different loads to determine the most accurate, and then just load the rest like that.  I'm guessing the best way to do this is to  buy 3 different powders and load 5 rounds to determine the most accurate one.  Is this a good way to go about this?  It would help if the bullets weren't so expensive.  Also, what powders should I try.  I've only used RL19, and haven't gotten really good results with this.  I have RL22 on hand so I'll try that along with 2 other powders.  What powders do you suggest?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 14:34
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Originally posted by ckk1106 ckk1106 wrote:

Thanks Dale.  The reason I ask is that Game and Fish cashed my elk application check, so I believe that I got drawn for bull elk this year.  I'm gonna use my 338 win and nosler partition 225 gr bullets.  I'm gonna buy a box of 50 bullets, and, cause their expensive use 15 or so in different loads to determine the most accurate, and then just load the rest like that.  I'm guessing the best way to do this is to  buy 3 different powders and load 5 rounds to determine the most accurate one.  Is this a good way to go about this?  It would help if the bullets weren't so expensive.  Also, what powders should I try.  I've only used RL19, and haven't gotten really good results with this.  I have RL22 on hand so I'll try that along with 2 other powders.  What powders do you suggest?
 
 Congratulations on the elk tag! Arizona?
 If you don't want to spend a fortune on bullets and all summer running experiments, you are well on the right track with a great elk caliber and a great elk bullet.
 All my older manuals list only 210 and 250 grain bullets, so I can't help you with load data.
Get ahold of a copy of Nosler's latest edition, I'd bet it has up-to-date data on the 225 grain bullet.
 If they show any data for H4350 or H4831, I'd lean toward those two, if they show decent velocities, only because I've gotten them to perform well in other calibers. I haven' t much experience with the .338 Win. though.
 If you can get 250 grain partitions, they may be worth trying out if the 225s don't fly well for you. There is some data out on those. Don't obsess over half-minute groups, either.  An elk is two feet deep through the chest cavity. Super accuracy is always nice, but it's really not necessary for reasonable-distance elk hunting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 14:37
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Coby, I typed out a lengthy answer to your question, but my computer locked up for some reason before I could post it, and I lost my comments.  RL19 should be a good powder for the .338 WM, so I would continue trying loads with it, as well as IMR4350, IMR4831, H4831, etc.  Suffice it to say, it takes a lot more than 5 rounds with each powder to determine the most accurate load.  You need to get several manuals, where you will see common powders recommended for each.  Select a couple of powders to test, start about 3 grains below the average listed maximum for each powder and work up loads in 1/2 grain increments in batches of 10 each looking for pressure signs as you go.  This means about 60 loads for each powder.  Since this is a little lengthy and difficult to describe in a post, if you're interested, shoot me a PM and a number I can reach you, and I'll describe the process over the phone for not only selecting the best powder, but also bullet choices and finding the best seating depth / OAL for your rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 14:49
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Coby, I typed out a lengthy answer to your question, but my computer locked up for some reason before I could post it, and I lost my comments.  RL19 should be a good powder for the .338 WM, so I would continue trying loads with it, as well as IMR4350, IMR4831, H4831, etc.  Suffice it to say, it takes a lot more than 5 rounds with each powder to determine the most accurate load.  You need to get several manuals, where you will see common powders recommended for each.  Select a couple of powders to test, start about 3 grains below the average listed maximum for each powder and work up loads in 1/2 grain increments in batches of 10 each looking for pressure signs as you go.  This means about 60 loads for each powder.  Since this is a little lengthy and difficult to describe in a post, if you're interested, shoot me a PM and a number I can reach you, and I'll describe the process over the phone for not only selecting the best powder, but also bullet choices and finding the best seating depth / OAL for your rifle.
 
 Great in-depth advice Ted!
 I just need to point out a minor detail.  Coby mentioned using a .338 Winchester Magnum.
 Your reply mentioned .338 WM. WM is the traditional abbreviation for WEATHERBY MAGNUM, whereas Win. is the traditional abbreviation for the Winchester's Magnum line.
 I don't want Coby to stumble onto data for the .340 Weatherby by mistake.
 Might get a bit hot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 15:45
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 Your reply mentioned .338 WM. WM is the traditional abbreviation for WEATHERBY MAGNUM, whereas Win. is the traditional abbreviation for the Winchester's Magnum line.
 I don't want Coby to stumble onto data for the .340 Weatherby by mistake.
 Might get a bit hot.
 
Good point.  Generally, I use the terms "Win Mag" and "Wby Mag" but this time, I was frustrated by the fact I lost the post I spent so much time on and was focused on brevity.
 
Coby, here's some load data you can try for 225 and 250 gr bullets:
 
225 & 230 gr bullets --
RL19
Starting 69.0 gr / Max. 73.0 gr
IMR4350
Starting 67.0 gr / Max. 71.0 gr
H4831
Starting 71.0 gr / Max. 75.0 gr
 
250 gr bullets
IMR7828 
Starting 71.0 gr / Max. 75.0 gr
IMR4350
Starting 64.0 gr / Max. 68.0 gr
H4831
Starting 68.0 gr / Max. 72.0 gr
 
Start out loading to OAL of 3.340" for all loads until you find the best powder and charge weight combination.  Once you arrive at your most accurate powder and charge weight, adjust your bullet seating depth starting at about 0.020" off the lands and test in lots with seating depth adjusted downward in 0.010" increments until you find optimal seating depth for your rifle.  Sometimes the magazine box length will limit how far out you can seat your bullets, so you may not be able to start within 0.020" off the lands, depending on your rifle.  Then, once you find the best combination of powder, charge, bullet seating depth (distance off the lands), duplicate this load using different bullet designs of the same weight.  Keep in mind that different bullets of the same weight may have different ogive profiles, so measuring OAL with calipers may not give you the same distance off your rifle's lands when chambered.  For this, you need an OAL comparitor or a bullet seating depth gauge like the Stoney Point OAL gauge.
 
Before you start any load testing, make sure all your scope mount screws and action screws are tight.  Action screws don't need to be any tighter than about 45 inch pounds, with 35 in/lb being typical.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 19:48
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you have geared your future action around a type of bullet.  I've had good results with 4350, 4831, win old MRP and R22 (when it was norma MRP) with 250's but it has been many years back. The cartridge and bullet you have selected is an old time standard and there is all kinds of data, which usually means its pretty hard to find a bad load.

One caution however, most fish and games cash everybodys check, so they get to use the funds for 3-4 months, before making the refunds, when the winners are announced.

as both rifledude and ronk have pointed out the overiding factors will be mag. box fit, (OAL) and just shooting which will get you used to the nudge of the 338's

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 22:35
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I think you might be right about game and fish cashing the checks, and if you don't get drawn they send the money back to you.  I hope that's not the case, cause I've heard of a few people that their check didn't get cashed.  I won't hold my breath.  Thanks for the info on the reloads.  I will wait to hear before I start the process of reloading these rounds.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 23:22
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Well I think I've waited long enough.  I'm gonna go ahead and purchase the powders anyways.  I will need them eventually.  It seems the 4831 and 4350 have been mentioned by all of you guys so I will purchase those.  I guess they are made by both Hodgson and IMR.  I'm gonna try the IMR for no other reason than I know they are sold at the local gun shop.  I'll PM you, Rifledude, when I get these and you can get me started on the right track.  I do need to buy one of those olgive measuring things, I guess, cause I only have the regular calipers.  Thanks.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 23:36
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Congrats on the draw bro, I hope it goes well for you and I'd like some jerky..Wink I can't add anything here as you have gotten some good advice from these guys and should certainly get you headed in the right direction. Best of luck to you bro.
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Coby, here is a very useful, yet inexpensive tool for comparing AOL over the ogive between different loads, using your calipers.  I use it all the time to set the seating depth of different bullet designs the same distance off the lands. 
 
 
For determining how far out you can seat the bullet before touching the lands, I make a "dummy round" (sized case with seated bullet, but with no powder or primer) to test OAL for function and distance to the lands.  Color the bullet with a black marker, blue dykem, or soot from a candle so you can see rifling marks scratched on the bullet.  Seat the bullet intentionally long at first, and seat the bullet progressively further in the case a little at a time until the bolt will just close.  This establishes the OAL where the bullet is touching the lands, and you should see rifling marks on the bullet.  Seat the bullet 0.020" deeper and start testing your first loads for OAL from there.  As stated earlier, your magazine box may not allow you to seat your bullets out this long, so the first priority is to make sure whatever OAL you go with functions in your magazine.  You can also get a Stoney Point OAL gauge or Sinclair also sells an OAL gauge as an alternative to the dummy round approach.
 


Edited by RifleDude - March/16/2008 at 23:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/17/2008 at 03:23
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Coby,
Everybody has given you excellent advice.
Do a search on this forum for"Nosslers difficult to stabilize" I did a similiar project on 200gr Nossler Part for a 300H&H. I fired a 100 rounds before I found the load that worked! Expensive, very expensive. I firstly found the correct amount of powder to give me a reasonable grouping and velocity, which was on the top end of the scale. I then played with bullet OAL to give me a tighter grouping. I found that as little as 3/1000 of an inch effected the groupings. See my post of today: Finally got the Nossler to behave.
But do not loose faith,the Nosslers seem to be a difficult bullet to work with.
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You are getting good advice. On selecting powders. I select the bullit for the job and then the powder for the bullit and the job it has to do. If I need a hunting load I check all of my loading manuals for the powders that on average give the highest velocities for the starting load and maximum load for that bullit weight +or- 5gr of bullit weight. This helps select a powder. After picking a powder I average the starting weights of the powders and then the maximum weghts of the powder to give me a starting and maximum powder charge weight. If one manual's start weight is another's max. back off 10%. This GENERALLY will give you a safe maximum load you can wortk with, but be sure to watch for pressure signs. Find your best load and then start tweaking it, and ALWAYS CHECK for signs of HIGH PRESSURE.
Your gonna need more bullits.
Remember I'm no ex-pert, or current-pert, just a pre-pert.
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What are the signs of high pressure.  I assess all cased after firing and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary.  But, I should probably know the "signs".  Thanks.  
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Originally posted by ckk1106 ckk1106 wrote:

What are the signs of high pressure.  I assess all cased after firing and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary.  But, I should probably know the "signs".  Thanks.  
 
Difficult bolt lift after firing, flattened primers (no longer a radius at outer corner of primer), loose primers, shiny spots on case head showing marks from ejector button or ejector slot. 
In extreme cases of overpressure, you get blown/pierced primers, difficult extraction or inability to extract cases, case splits hear rim, etc.
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Well, other than the obvious such as split necks, or cases. Hard extraction: hard to turn the bolt handle or pulling the case out of the chamber. Flattened primers: the primers don't have that radiused edge where they fit in the primer pocket but look flat.when you punch them out they look squared or even flared out at the base of the primer. If it looks like there is a crater around the indention made by the firing pin on the primer. A shinney ring around the case at the web. burn marks around the primer or the primer falls out after firing. Any one of these by them selves MAY not mean the pressure is to high but two or more and I would back off. I also like to measure the case web and if it starts to measure more tha .002 over the diameter of my starting load then I start getting concerned.
These are just some of the signs you can look for, ther may be more.
Anybody else out there that's got high pressure signs?
Remember I'm no ex-pert, or current-pert just a pre-pert. 
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Signs of high pressure

  1. Hard bolt lift
  2. Brass flow on the case head causing a shiny mark
  3. Flattened primers
  4. Higher than expected velocities

If you are looking for accuracy with the Nosler Partition then you may find it but in my experience you would be one of the few.  If Partitions were as accurate as others then the bullet market would be a lot smaller because there would not be any need for a lot of the other premium bullets.

In my 338 win mag I have found the 225 gr Accubonds (cheaper than the Partitions) to be much more accurate.  The Barnes Triple Shocks are also very accurate but more expensive than even the Partitions.  Other suitable premium Elk bullets like the Swift A-Frame and the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws are very expensive.  So my recommendation is for the Accubonds and RL19.  I would post some of my 225 gr bullet targets with the RL19 but most are over book max.

Also the 210 gr bullets in the Nosler Partition or the Barnes Triple Shocks are good Elk medicine

Matter of fact, the 210 gr TSX has been my most consistantly accurate loads
 
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Well, other than the obvious such as split necks, or cases. Hard extraction: hard to turn the bolt handle or pulling the case out of the chamber. Flattened primers: the primers don't have that radiused edge where they fit in the primer pocket but look flat.when you punch them out they look squared or even flared out at the base of the primer. If it looks like there is a crater around the indention made by the firing pin on the primer. A shinney ring around the case at the web. burn marks around the primer or the primer falls out after firing. Any one of these by them selves MAY not mean the pressure is to high but two or more and I would back off. I also like to measure the case web and if it starts to measure more tha .002 over the diameter of my starting load then I start getting concerned.
These are just some of the signs you can look for, ther may be more.
Anybody else out there that's got high pressure signs?
Remember I'm no ex-pert, or current-pert just a pre-pert. 
  Three that I can think of not yet mentioned are unusually loud muzzle blast, unusually stiff recoil and poor accuracy.
 Also- split necks are not always a sign of high pressure. They more often indicate work-hardened brass.
 Case head seperations are sometimes mentioned as a pressure sign, when they more often indicate headspace problems.


Edited by RONK - March/19/2008 at 21:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/19/2008 at 21:45
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Once again your correct RONK. Split cases are more likely work hardened or brittle brass and case head seperations are probably head space issues. I was having a head space issue when I responded, but I thought ckk1106 needed a quick response and I was throwen out as much as I could remember.
Anyway most loading manuals and sometimes the gun comics (aka gun magazines) will talk about pressure signs.
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 Well, all the things mentioned by all participants in this thread are probably warning signs of SOMETHING with the potential to cause trouble.

 Just a good reminder that we really need to pay attention to things with this handloading /shooting business!

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I start by uniforming the brass. Full length resize, ream both sides of the flash hole, but a vld taper on the case mouth. Clean and inspect. As for powder selection I choose the top two that show the highest velocity and highest case volume. Then I start throwing powder charges (for the bullet weight Im using)  beginning at the listed min. starting charge and work up from there but not beyond listed max charge. As for bullet selection I try several different brands until I find the one that shots the best through my rifle or handgun. I set my bullets at or as close to the lands as I can with out going over the magazine length. (what good is a repeating rifle if you cant use the mag... I wish every company would set there chamber spec's so you could reach the lands while maintaining the oal length to work in the mag but a few dont) From there once I find a good shooting load I may play around with different OAL's if that is a option. I have not seen any real gains in accuracy using different primer brands, but many shooters play with that too. I would do that last if you wish to do it at all. As for pressure, if you stay within published guide lines you should not see any pressure problems. But it is still a good idea to look for it.
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Going back to the original question: Where does one start on working out a load?
I gave this some further thought.
I would say that one firstly has to decide on the bullet weight.
Then you have to decide on the minimum and maximum velocity you will accept.
Then you would load and chronograph (or read of the powder chart) your velocities.
Then, once you have an acceptable velocity, you would start looking at accuracy by varying OCL, powders, primers etc.
I say this, because I once loaded the amount of powder only looking at accuracy, and not thinking of velocity. I brought the powder amount down and down as accuracy improved. Eventually I had a nice grouping. But when I chronographed the bullet, I had to throw the whole load out the window as velocity was unacceptably low for my use.
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Just because a loading manual states a min. and max. load don't mean it's safe. One of my earliest loads that I developed showed signs of pressure long before I got to the published maximum charge weight. I ended up with two very accurate loads, and I selected the lighter one. I have since learned that this load is a favorite of more than one gun writer. Oh by the way the load was for the .357 magnum 125gr, JHP WW case, Win. small mag. pistol primer, 19.2 gr. Win 296. It was developed in a S&W Mod.19. The other load was 19.8gr of 296 and I used that in a S&W Mod. 28 on occasion; this load would have soon ruined that Mod. 19. I never reached the Max. listed load as I started getting flat and cratered primers right after the 19.8gr. Components and guns make a difference in handloading.
8shots I agree with you too. I was working up a load for my 300 Win mag and my starting load started to look like it was going to be the most accurate. I thought I may as well get a 30 06 but I pressed on and found a load that wiil work. I could probably push it some more if I need to, but at least I don't have an expensive tp shoot 30 06. 190gr SMK@ 2900fps.
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