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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2010 at 22:55
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i have just read that stainless barrels are not recommended for below freezing temperature.does anyone know why?
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ive used stainless barrels quite a bit in sub zero temps and never had any issues. .300 win mag and .375H&H mag both.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2010 at 23:01
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It could make sense depending on just how freezing. If it's too cold for a stainless barrel, I likely would be inside enjoying a fire.
The reasoning is that stainless steel is more brittle than conventional steel is. But, any steel will become more brittle as it gets colder. The reasoning is the same for a sword, conventional steel take a temper to a spring and can rebound from a strike. Stainless does not. Still I think that in most huntable temps stainless will be just fine.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2010 at 23:51
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Stainless worked fine in very low temperatures on a Russian hunt. 
 
Just as important, I didn't have to worry about rust and extra cleaning time every night.  (If you go hunting in cold, ice, and snow, your rifle WILL get wet.)
 
I'm a great believer in the principal that your hunting gear should be able to handle as much bad weather as you can, without requiring a lot of extra work and care.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 07:46
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Sako trg's are not made in stainless for this reason, but the company only states that they get better (better accuracy) results chrome moly without a specific reason. It seems strange that they have so many stainless in their hunting line if it were a big problem. I've shot stainless AR's in below freezing for many years, also Coopers, and Remingtons and Sakos and have yet to see a problem.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 07:49
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Originally posted by cowski cowski wrote:

i have just read that stainless barrels are not recommended for below freezing temperature.does anyone know why?
 
Not true.  That is a myth that got spread around because a couple of factory rifles with barrels made from a bad batch of steel cracked when used in really cold weather, but the incident had nothing to do with the cold weather or stainless steel in general.
 
It's just a rumor.  Stainless steel is no more or less well suited for cold weather than chrome moly steel.
 
See Lilja's comment on this (bottom of the page)...


Edited by RifleDude - May/17/2010 at 09:27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 07:53
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Sako trg's are not made in stainless for this reason, but the company only states that they get better (better accuracy) results chrome moly without a specific reason. 
 
Simply not true.  Sako got a bad batch of stainless that reared its ugly head with some Finnlight rifles.  You get no better or worse accuracy with one steel vs. another.  It all depends on how the barrel was manufactured and the quality of the steel used.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 07:58
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

The reasoning is that stainless steel is more brittle than conventional steel is. But, any steel will become more brittle as it gets colder. The reasoning is the same for a sword, conventional steel take a temper to a spring and can rebound from a strike. Stainless does not. Still I think that in most huntable temps stainless will be just fine.
 
Actually, the exact opposite is true.  Carbon steel is far more brittle than most stainless steels, because of the high carbon content.  Stainless is usually more malleable than carbon steel.  But, it depends on which carbon steel and which stainless is being compared.  17-4 PH is an example of a stainless steel that can be tempered.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 08:00
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sako states this in some of their literature (whether it is true for them or not --not up to us to say), and along with claims of chrome lining surround some of the trgs stories (along with trying to find out what trg means).  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 08:05
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17-4 ph also works well in investment casting process where others don't and some stainless's have higher sulfur content, which makes them mill  (chip out) easier than others,  compared to 4140 chrome moly  which is like bubble gum.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 08:08
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How many of us would be actually in an environment that would remotely test the point of our rifles on a regular basis? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 08:28
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Folks, the rumor that stainless is less well suited to cold weather is exactly that:  a rumor.  To say stainless is more brittle and doesn't withstand subzero temps as well as chrome moly steel is simply a bunch of crap.  The most common stainless used in barrels is 416R, which is softer (and therefore less brittle) than 4140 CrMo steel.  416 is the same stainless as 410, except with added sulphur to improve machinability, because 410 is very gummy, producing long, difficult chips when machined, making deep hole drilling more difficult and time-consuming.  It is exactly BECAUSE it is less brittle that it is a little more resistant to throat erosion than chrome moly.  This is why 416 is overwhelmingly used in competition barrels more than chrome moly.   Harder steels tend to thermal crack more.  
 
Sako was simply covering their collective backsides because they most likely got some "dirty" stainless, i.e. had too much inclusions in the bar stock used to make the Finnlight barrels that failed.  There has been only a couple of documented cases of this failure ever, and it was related to a bad batch of material, not the fact it was stainless steel.
 
The stainless steel / subzero temps thing is a bunch of b.s.


Edited by RifleDude - May/17/2010 at 08:40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 08:33
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

compared to 4140 chrome moly  which is like bubble gum.  
 
4140 is not like bubble gum at all.  It has among the best machinability of any materials, and produces very short chips.  In fact, you would be very hard pressed to find a material with better machinability than 4140.
 
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 08:38
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

sako states this in some of their literature   
 
Where? 
 
All they have stated in this regard is they got a bad batch of material, and they had a recall to be cautious.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 10:10
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Some of the barrel manufactorers advise against stainless below 0 degrees simply as a liability issue. I have also asked about the benefit of cryo on stainless and they state that there has been no recordable improvment with cryo and offer concern of the stainless "possibly" being more brittle. This is simply a "proceed at your own risk" issue.
 
This is a page from Kreiger Barrels with their recommendation.
 
Read the notes at the bottom of the page.
 


Edited by Sgt. D - May/17/2010 at 10:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 10:10
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This stainless rumor is perpetuated by Krieger barrels as well. They won't make ss barrels below a certain contour for that reason. For the record though, Crucible states that for gun barrel stainless steel (416R) it can be safely used in temps down to something like minus 40 degrees.

Edited by Roy Finn - May/17/2010 at 10:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 10:12
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I did over simplify the answer a bit. Still you will not ever see a true battle sword made of stainless steel. Why is that? Yes it is true that too much carbon makes any steel hard and brittle. Chromium does as well. As with any steel the alloys are designed for the job that the steel is milled for. That is comparing apples and oranges, but none the less, it makes for a valid argument when comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the two steel families. As I stated before, if it's too cold for stainless steel, I will be inside enjoying a fire.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 10:29
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I agree that 4140 possesses excellent machinablity. I found the chips would pop of in short curls and did a great job of taking the heat with them.
Of the many types of stainless I have machined, most were gummy. Some were so poor at removing heat with the chip that when removing the part from the fixture they would spring. We would then have to normalize the part.
 
Doug
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 11:09
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Quote from Lilja (the link provided above):

 
"Q. Can stainless steel barrels be safely fired in sub zero temperatures?

Yes they certainly can be. There is a myth going around that stainless steel alloys used in rifle barrels loose their strength in sub zero temperatures. There is no truth to that. We have made many thousands of barrels that have been fired safely in below zero temperatures as have all of the other custom barrel makers as well as the major arms manufacturers. This is an urban legend that should be chilled."

The discussion here involves barrel steels, in this case 416 vs. chrome moly (4140, 4150, Vanadium, etc.).  In comparing those two materials, 416 is softer and less brittle than chrome moly steel.  Despite being softer, 416 is more resistant to throat erosion (thermal cracking) and is easier to lap to a smoother surface finish than chrome moly steel, which is why it is used more often in match barrels.  Since throat erosion will show up before mechanical wear, 416 provides a bit longer "accurate" service life.  On the other hand, chrome moly is more resistant to mechanical wear owing to greater surface hardness.  The main advantage to stainless is corrosion resistance.  Barrels made from either can be just as accurate as the other, so there's no real advantage there. 
 
The rumor that 416 stainless becomes more prone to fatigue than chrome moly alloy steel when subjected to extremely cold weather is FALSE.  Period. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 11:23
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Weatherby claims their Accumark barrels to be of 410 stainless. Would there be any advantage to this over 416? Seems to me it would just be more difficult to machine. I've turned 410 before, and don't find it to be one of my favorite materials.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 12:42
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410 is a superior stainless from the standpoint of better corrosion resistance and higher tensile strength.  The reason 416 is usually used instead of 410 is because the sulfur content in 416 makes it easier to machine (shorter, more manageable chips).  410 is far more difficult to drill.  We gun drill 410 quite often at work, and chips have a tendency to get wrapped around the head of the gun drill, causing gouges in the bore, even with super high pressure coolant.  The shorter chips produced in 416 are easier to evacuate through the flute of the gun drill.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 12:44
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The statement was compatitive and qualified. 4140 is like bubble gum to some stainless steels (how many are there anyway) , thats what it says, don't read stuff into it.
 
why Sako doesn't use stainless steel barrels in the trg is/has been the topic of several websites for years, if you want to do a search to catch up that would be fine. I think it has more to do with the pressing of the receiver around the barrel than stainless vs take your pick. How a major maker does press releases for their vested interests is probably a more to the point issue.
 
Ask any 4 barrel makers questions on a variety of topics usually brought up in websites and you will get 4 different answers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 12:59
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

 
Ask any 4 barrel makers questions on a variety of topics usually brought up in websites and you will get 4 different answers.
One thing I agree with 100%. Ask them all about stainless, and fluting. Just try to get the same answer from two of them! If you really want a treat throw gain twists in for fun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 13:00
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

 
Ask any 4 barrel makers questions on a variety of topics usually brought up in websites and you will get 4 different answers.
One thing I agree with 100%. Ask them all about stainless, and fluting. Just try to get the same answer from two of them! If you really want a treat throw gain twists in for fun.
+100 to both of you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2010 at 14:21
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Regarding Krieger's claims, I don't remember if it was Brux or Bartlein barrels that said they felt this stainless rumor was BS as well. One of those two companies started with two guys that worked for Krieger if I recall correctly.

Edited by Roy Finn - May/17/2010 at 14:22
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