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Some thoughts on optics that I use

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2006 at 21:06
koshkin View Drop Down
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I was going through the contents of my gun safe and looked at what I have mounted onto different guns.  It occurred to me that I had somewhat spontaneously ended up with a fairly rational distribution of optics.

I am not sure if this is of value to anyone, but I figured I might as well post it anyway since I've gone through the trouble of formulating my thoughts.  Is this an optimal way of selecting optics?  Probably not, but it is something that seems to work with my budgetary considerations and with my applications. 

 

I post enough here, so that quite a few people would recognize my name, but here is some background information.  I do not put my life on the line with a gun in hand.  If I did, I would perhaps justify spending a grand for ACOG.  I do not go onto African safaris (yet).  I am 29. I am married. I do not have kids.  I work full time.  I go to school part-time for my MBA.  I just bought a house (when I bought it, I calculated how many guns I could buy for the same amount of money and got depressed).  My undergraduate degree is in Applied Physics from Caltech.  Specialties: classical optics, non-linear crystals, optical waveguides, lasing cavities, optical fiber, etc.  I work for Raytheon Vision Systems on various infrared programs.  Most recently, next generation night vision goggles and weapon sights. 

 

I am by no means an expert on sporting optics, but not a newbie either.

 

At the latest count I have three Burris scopes, four Sightron Scopes and two binoculars and two IOR scopes and three binoculars.  I have had a number of Leupolds, but sold them all except for one (a scout scope).  I also have optics from a few other brands here and there, but I am slowly converging on the brands mentioned above and selling off other stuff.  I will keep some other scopes like a couple of excellent Israeli 6x40 Nimrods and an older Micro-track Weaver K2.5 that looks right at home on a VZ24 sniper.  I am also planning to get one of Trijicon's excellent Accupoint scopes to evaluate and, perhaps, keep.  I generally stay away from German products, but I have played with quite a few of them.  I used to have a Zeiss Diavari ZA 1.5-6x42 which I sold.  It was a nice scope, but not sufficiently good to keep it.  I got a very good deal on it when I bought it used and I made a bit over $200 on it when I sold it.  I've bought and sold a lot of scopes and that's probably the only time I actually made money.  I've played with a few Conquests.  Nice scopes, but not good enough to justify the price (higher magnification models) or to overrule my aversion to German products (3-9x40).

Basically, from all I've tried, I think Sightron S2 and Bushnell Elite 4200 offer the best bang for the buck, optically speaking.  I tend to be eye-relief sensitive, so I do not put Elite 4200 on guns that kick, but on my 22-250 varminter it's perfect.  In the varmint configuration, 6-24x40, I have yet to see a better scope for the money.  To get better optics you'll have to double the price.  I had a chance to compare several scopes of comparable configuration from SIghtron, Burris, Nikon and Leupold and I'll stay with Elite 4200.  Interestingly, I think that Elite 3200 does not have the glass to compete in its price range while Elite 4200 is top-notch.

I like Burris Ballistic Plex reticles on mid-range scopes and their low magnification variables.  I think these are great scopes for rifles that kick and all Burris scopes that I've tried seemed very durable.  Optically, Burris scopes are certainly competitive in their respective price ranges, but hardly better than competition (no worse either).  Their competitive advantages seem to be innovative reticles, ruggedness and consistent eye relief.  Also they offer a pretty full complement of compact scopes in the Short Mag line up that have very generous and non-critical eye relief.  I look forward to trying their new Euro Diamond 1-4x24 scope that has attracted my interest.  I once dropped a rifle with a compact 4x20 on it onto a concrete floor scope down (accidentally).  Dent on the tube.  No change in zero.  I have a Burris Fullfield II 6.5-20x50 which is a nice scope, but not a threat to Elite 4200.  Itís going to be sold as well.

For all-round use, or for testing guns I go with Sightrons.  I've never had one loose zero.  Sightron S2 has some of the best adjustments at any price, and it seems that their optical design is really well optimized for midpack scopes of 3-9x42 and 4-16x42 variety.  Their eye relief is long enough for nearly anything that I have and the glass is very nice.  My only beef with Sightrons is that they do not have a fast-focus eye piece which I have learned to appreciate.  I also have a Sightron 10x42 binocular, but that is going to be up on Ebay shortly as well.  I am switching to porros 100%.  Another Sightron binocular that I have is a cheap little inverse porro 8x25 that lives in my car's glovebox.  One of Sightronís discontinued scopes that I have is a 3-15x42 AO.  It is an interesting design with good resolution, but in order to make the 5x erector work the FOV was made pretty small.  On top of that the scope is a fair but bigger than a 4-16x42AO that I have.  To the Ebay it goes.

IORs are my choice for tactical applications (I am not LE and I am not sure if tactical is the right word to use here, but I could not find a suitable synonim).  I have had several of their 4x scopes and they have been uniformly excellent.  I've got two of them now (although I'll putting one up on Ebay shortly).  Here in Commiefornia I can't have guns that look too scary (no ARs or AKs).  The closest thing

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chasseur106 View Drop Down
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Thanks Ilya,

          It was nice to hear someone's honest thoughts on their set ups.  I, too, have come around to liking some scopes over others but nonetheless, do not consider myself to be an optics guru.  So when you get around to it, how about some lowdown on the best values in Night optics, or should we wait to see what comes out next?   You did not say what caliber of rifles that you currently shoot, except for the 22-250, so I was wondering about that as well? 

          I currently own a .300 Win Mag made by Beretta, ( MATO), synthetic and it is all the gun I want to ever shoot.  I had to put a muzzle brake on it to even consider keeping it.  It kicks like a rented mule

          Then again I do most of my shooting with a pair of .30- '06's.  One is my 'goto' deer rifle a Savage M116 Weather Warrior, and the other a heavy P-17 Enfield that has had the rear sight assembly ground off of the rear.  Then I also have a custom built .25-'06 built on an 8mm Turkish Mauser.  It is the most accurate, and also kicks like a Missourri Mule!      I have .223 CZ and a Ruger .22-250 Varmint rig that I use a Burris 6-24X44mm on for all the Pennsylvania Pasture poodles I can perforate in a summer here in Western PA.  The .300 Win Mag sports the Burris Black Diamond, and the Savage has a 4-16X44mm Burris SS.  Everything else is either Leupold or Burris, as I just recently got rid of the Bushnell(Bausch and Lomb)3-9 X40mm to a friend of mine.  He is just now getting into the sport of hunting and I wanted to be sure that he got a great scope that he would be happy with, and not one that would disappoint at the wrong time.

           I, too am leaning heavily towards Burris Eurodiamond scopes.  The only porblem I can see with them is that they are absent of parrallax adjustment.  I do like the concept of the illuminated reticles, but would probably opt out of them if I were to hear that they did not hold up well to hunting.  Shots around here in Western PA are on the short side of things, maybe 180 yards is about all you would ever see, but not really all that often.  Sub 100 yard shots are the norm, but I was hoping to have a hunt out in the west sometime in the next two years, so I wanted something that had a parallax adjustment to it.  I was even thinking of going with one of the tacticals and I have often wondered about the IOR with the MP8 reticle, wether it would be a wise choice or not.  The smallest variable I own now is a 2-7 Vari X II compact on top of a .22 LR Marlin lever.  But I wanted to opt for a 2-10 or even a 3-12 from the eurodiamond line.  What are you eyeing up?

          Scott 

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koshkin View Drop Down
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The night vision stuff that I am working is not likely to be available to the non-military folk for a pretty long time.  It is pretty cool though (that's more or less all I can disclose of the specs).

You seem to have both a Black Diamond in 4-16x50 and a Signature Select in 4-16x44.  Have you tried comparing them side by side at 6x or 7x?

Parallax adjustment does not make much (if any) difference until you go beyond 10-12x magnification, so I do not worry about it too much.

A well executed illuminated reticles are quite durable.  Burris seems to have a good grip on this.

The bulk of my guns is various surplus rifles (I enjoy tinkering with them).

Several versions of Mosin Nagant (Finnish M39s and Russian 91/30s and M38s).  Some scoped, but some not.  I have a Finnish M39 that I put a side mount and a Nimrod 6x40 scope on that is a sub-MOA rifle with good ammo.  The receiver on that gun was made in 1896.  I've grown to like 7.62x54R cartridge since cheap plinking ammo is plentiful, reloading is very straightforward (not fussy about powders and shoots bullets from 150 to 200 grains well).  One M38 has a scout mount on it (2x pistol scope).  I am putting a 91/30 with a PE mount together.  We'll see how that works.  I am still not sure which scope I'll put on that.  I think it has 30mm rings, but I am not yet sure of the exact mounting spot for the scope.  That will dictate whether I'll need to buy another scope or not.  The rest of them I'll keep with iron sights.

Then there is a bunch of 8mm Mausers: Yugo M48 converted to a scout configuration in an ATI stock with a Leupold 2.5x scout scope, VZ24 sniper with an older Weaver K2.5 scope, Turkish M38 (to be converted into a 6.5x55 "tweed"), another M48 action (to be mated with a Parker Hale 308 barrel, Ken Farrel base and Sightron 4-16x42MD scope; I have not decided on the stock yet), one more VZ24 that is still full of Cosmolins and a Czech 98/22 that shot really well with irons and will probably be scoped.  I am fairly certain I am missing a couple of other 8mm Mausers, but I am too lazy to go and look into the safe.  I primarily shoot 196 gr ammo from Privi Partisan and Sellior and Bellot.  VZ24 sniper thrives on surplus Yugo 198gr ammo.  I have also worked up a few good loads with Speer 200gr Hot-Cor, Nosler 200gr Partition and 180gr Ballisti Tip.  Interestingly all of my Mausers prefer heavier bullets.

A couple of 7.5x55 Swiss K31s, one scoped and one not.  Scoped K31 has a SIghtron S1 3-9x40MD on it which is my beater scope of a sort.  Not yet sure which scope I want on it permanently.  The cartridge has similar ballistics to 308 and the rifle is very accurate and has a wonderful trigger, so I am considering either getting something with 308BDC or a Burris with Ballistic Plex reticle.  I think I'd like to try shooting this one out to a fairly long range.

A couple of Romanian 22s with some beater scopes on them.  That's a project that I put on hold since these are very cheap rifles that are not easy to make much out of.  One of them shoots quite well with CCI Velocitor ammo, so messing with it is on my list of things to do.

I just bought my first Enfield (No4 Mk1).  It is going to end up scoped if it shoots well.  TBD, but I will probably pair it with another 6x40 Nimrod scope.

I've got a Tikka M695 in 280Rem with Warne bases, Burris Signature Zee rings and a Sightron 3-9x42MD.  It is absolutely stock and shoots very well.  I once swore to never mess with it, but I have an itch to get a Trijicon Accupoint 3-9x40 scope and mount it on the Tikka.  We'll see if I can resist it.

Then there is a Savage 12FV in 22-250 with a Choate Super Sniper stock, Ken Farrell base and Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x40MD scope.  No need to mess with this one any further.

Kel-tec SU-16 223Rem with an IOR 4x24CQB in IOR high QD rings.

A couple of SKS rifles (Yugo and Romanian).  No need to scope these, although I scoped the Romanian and occasionally shoot it with optics.  Mostly I shoot both with aperture sights though.

I think that's the bulk of it.  As for the stuff that I am eyeing, well I've got a Bushnell Holosight XLP on order.  I'll probably spend a little time on a Romanian SKS that's been sporterized.  Afterwards, I'll have to see.  If I buy another Kel-tec SU-16 that's where it is going to go.

I've been eyeing a semi-auto 22WMR rifle from Excel Arms.  That would be a good platform for a Burris Fullfield II in 3-9x40 with BalPlex.

A Euro Diamond 1-4x24 looks mighty attractive, but I'd like to see how expensive it will be.  I've been thinking of getting some sort of "African" rifle (for a while now and mostly for the heck of it) and that would be a good platform for it.

There are a couple of rifles that I'd like to get: Marlin 1895 levergun in 45-70 that will get a Burris 4x20 compact and a CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39.  I like the intermideate 7.62x39 cartridge and I want too cook up some interesting handloads for it.  I've also seen people convert it to a 6.5Grendel which is another option.

Ilya
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chasseur106 View Drop Down
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Wow Ilya,

     Looks as though you and I love Mausers.  Every rifle I own excpet one is based on a Mauser action.  I even built a .25-' 06 from a Turkish Mauser, just because I wanted to, but everything I have had was bought for hunting some 'thing', even though I have not made a kill with each gun yet.  I guess I would say that my pleasures run the gammet of shooting well with each gun, and practicing so that I am competent with each gun.  But actually I love to reload and experiment with ballistics more than anything.  I was an officer in the US Army Field Artillery for a number of years and that got my obsession started with burning powder and ballistics.  My absolute favorite rifle that I own at the moment is a CZ 527 with a laminated stock in .223, and also the one I have had fits with until tonight getting a proper scope mount to sit correctly on it.  I went to our local gun store here, and they got me some Leupold rings so I could mount that scope on it.

         Do you hunt at all?  I hunt Whitetail deer, Turkey, groundhogs, ducks, and coyote/fox.  Depending on which one answers my predator calls, is the one i go after for the evening. 

         I have fired every crew served weapon in the American military, except for the M249 SAW.  I never really got off shooting a lot of the machine guns, except when the ammo was available for it, and I had the range to myself.  Normally after everyone else went and there was a surplus in the ammo available.  But I have never really wanted to own a machine gun, or even an AR 15 for that matter.  I like the classic stuff that Mauser did with his designs, and for that reason I am now covered as far as having the right combination of speed and lethality for those animals that I want to hunt.  I imagine in California, it is tough to be open with your passions for shooting and collecting guns, isn't it?  Do you hunt?  From what you have said in you other posts, it would seem unlikely that you actually had any spare time to do that.  But maybe you do??

         Do you collect those older weapons for the nostalgia of owning history and getting them to shoot well, or is there another reason why you prefer the Russian and Finnish weapons?  I have seen them, but I was always a little leary of buying something that old, and wondered if I would get a good one or a junker.  If you have the abilities to fix the problems mechanically, then I guess it would not matter.  I have friends that have machine shops, and the desire to monkey around with these things, but I am not gifted in this area.  I mostly tinker with woodworking, and for a while I made a living carving gunstocks, but no more.  People are too unstable in their wants and desires for that to be a good living around here.  There is also a very limited audience for that sort of thing nowadays.  It is cool that you like tinkering and purchasing them.  There is a super gunstore near me called Springfield Sporters that specializes in the purchase of those older Finnish and Russian Mosin Nagant firearms.  They are near Indiana, PA.  Have you heard of them?    I should probably go.  I am tired and though I typed a longer letter to you before, somehow I got knocked off the Internet and lost it to Cyberspace.  So have a good week, and it has been nice talking to you.

           Yes, I have stacked the Burris Signature beside the Black Diamond, at all magnifications, and the Black Diamond is far and away a better scope.  It just feels too cluttered when I look through the Signature, even though the objective lenses are nearly the same size.  4- 16 X44mm vs. 4-16X 50mm.  And I am not sure that the old manner that Burris used to control the light with the installation of that shutter, doesn't somehow interfere with the light even when it is fully open !?  The other thing is that even at 16 power the Signature has difficulty presenting me with a full field of view, where the Black Diamond is clear at all magnification levels.  I may trade it for that Euro Diamond in 2.5- 10X44mm, or even a 3- 12X50mm Euro. 

             Oh, before I forget, I just saw the Meopta line of scopes for the first time tonight up close and personal.  Mankind, but they are well built but heavy, huh?  They looked to be very well made, but I am not so sure about going for one of those as they are pretty pricey.  If I were to buy something else I would go first to a newer Euro Diamond, or a Black Diamond, or perhaps even one of those newer Leupolds that have part of their objective bells scalloped out of the front.  That would put me into newer territory optically, as I have never spent so much money on a scope, before, or even considered it.

          

      Ciao,

        Scott

 

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koshkin View Drop Down
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To be honest I do not have much time for hunting these days, although I might be able to sneak out and go shoot a pig this summer.  We'll see.

I am not sure why I like Mosin-Nagants.  Perhaps it is because I grew up in Russia.  Also, Finnish M39s are among the most accurate military rifles ever built (along with Swedish Mausera and Swiss K31s).  Also, various milsurp rifles are cheaper to collect and shoot than a lot of modern guns and since I enjoy working on them, I just ended up veering in that direction.  I just do not have the disposable income to collect modern rifles a whole lot.

Collecting guns in PRC (People's Republic in California) is not too bad, but you can't be as open about it as you'd like.  On top of that, I work for Raytheon, so I've been called a "babykiller" more than once.  The left wing crowd here is quite hillarious at times though.  I wish they could go spend a few months where I grew up.  That would do wonders to their view of the world.

Meopta makes nice scopes, but they are out of my price range.  Generally, Meopta does a lot of OEM work for other companies.  For example,  Meopa makes the glass for Zeiss Conquest scopes.

Ilya


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Hello Ilya,

        Yes I had imagined that California was like that, considering most of the weird gun legislation gets bandied about from Diane Feinstein and her likes.  I think she is a senator from California, isn't she? 

         There are a lot of older guns like what you were mentioning of Finnish and Mosin Nagant vintage at some of the more specialized gun stores around here.  Around here, people do not get all wrapped around the axle about having the most modern looking store fronts and there are a lot of gun stores here that were put into pole barns and old office buildings, so it would not surprise me at all when you say that modern guns are too pricey. 

            I have seen some of the more modern gun stores near where my girlfriend lives in Michigan, and the prices they want forused guns is absolutely horrific, and makes me glad that I bought all of mine way below retail here in PA.  Around here, there are so many gun stores that they all cut each other's throats and I never pay full markup on a new rifle.  It averages about 35%- 50 % savings on what the MSRP is elsewhere.  For example, the Beretta MATO synthetic that I bought several years ago listed for $1200.00 and I got it for $600.00, then I bought that Black Diamond 4- 16X50mm scope for on top of it.  I saved a great deal on the scope because it was used.  About $300.00 off of new, so for the price of a Leupold 4.5- 14X44mm, I got a better scope for that .300 Win Mag.  The only gun I really put any serious money into was the custom built Mauser in .25- ' 06, and I was able to make payments on that as the gunsmith built it.  That totaled around $975.00, but it shoots great and I won't ever trade it.  The gunsmith never charged me full price for most of his work.  It is that way aroundhere with anyone working on guns, there are so many people with machinery and desire that full price is really affordable.  Unfortunately, he died in the middle of a build he was doing for a friend of mine, so I have to look for another guy with his kind of talent.  He was definitely old school as he died when he was 93 years old and actively employed in creating great gun works.  I won't say they were works of art, but more importantly they were supremely functional and accurate, and I am doing the stock work on it, so I will see, if I can pull off an attractive design. 

             I just got off the phone with my best friend, and he told me that he was robbed of all his valuable guns on New Year's Eve.  They took a Husqvarna .222 that was valued at $1500.00, a low serial numbered 11- 87 shotgun worth $1200.00 and a CZ .22LR with a Beretta Citori grade shotgun.  He is sick to his stomach, and wallet, because though he had a gun safe, when he got called out to work, he did not lock the front door, and when he came back the next day, he noticed that his safe was empty.  He toldme he was just thinking about changing his homeowner's policy to reflect his gun purchases, and now he does not really have any worries left about them.  He does not think that they will recover them, I imagine they are too easily transported and sold, so it makes me nervous about taking my guns to my new apartment, not too far from here.

             better go.

                 Scott

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llya:

 

I think your choice in optics is pretty much in line with my view.  Most of the brands you mentioned I own or have used at one time or another.  I think the companies that you listed offer some great optics at some pretty good prices.  In fact, I dare say that now is a great time to be a shooter or a sportsman because many companies are providing scopes and binoculars that a couple of years ago would have cost much more for the same level of performance.

 

On a side note I want to offer my thanks, you always seem to offer very sound advice for shooters looking for the best performance for their money.   Also, while you claim not to be an optics expert I'd say with your background you are pretty close.

 

I also live in the PRC so dealing with the gun laws is always a chore.  However, for some firearms I can avoid the waiting period it it is for work since I am a LE.  I have a fair number of handguns, and a few rifles in fact I picked up a Marlin Guide gun in .45/70 any suggestions for a scope (personally I may keep it open sights but maybe a low power would be good)

 

I am now setting my sights on a good shotgun either a Benelli Legacy or a Beretta Tekys. 

 

Scott:

The story about your friend just makes me ill, I could not imagine what that is like.  Hopefully he has serial numbers so that the firearms can be entered into a Stolen Fireams System. Its a long shot but he may get some back if someone is stopped with a stolen firearm. Or if the person attempts to sell it off to a business.

 

I know I have a habbit of spinning that dial just to make sure the thing is locked.  Wonderful world we live in that you have to lock them up in a metal safe however the vault is the only way to go.

 

Good luck guys and happy shooting

AC 

 

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I put a Burris Sig Safari 1.75-5 on my Guide Gun and it seems to be just right.  I load 45-70 pretty hot for the big hogs around here (405gr gas checked bullet at about 1900 fps).  This kicks quite a bit and I've never had any problems.  I shoot out to 150 yds with this load.  My Guide Gun will routinely shoot 2" groups at that range with the above load, better than some of my "long range" rifles.
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koshkin View Drop Down
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That's a very good choice for a guide gun.  That scope is probably one of the better choices for a kicker.

 

If you want to keep open sights, I've seen people put a XS Sights rear ghost ring and front dot and then also get a scout mount with a low mag scout scope.  That way you have the optics and a good set of irons for backup.

 

Ilya

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