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Some decent compacts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/09/2006 at 23:43
Anthony View Drop Down
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I am going to buy some binoculars for my sister. She started to complain about her 15$ humvee's after she looked through some of my riflescopes. When I say compact I mean under 30mm and over 20mm in 8 or 10x. This is something that is going to be carried around in a pack, or poket. Price range is 100-300$ depending on how good of a deal I am getting.

 

My current thought process is a pair of steiner wildlife's

 

I am open to any wild ideas or thoughts

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 07:43
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Minox?  Look on the sample list for some Stiener's

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 10:52
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Do the minox BR W have a warranty?

 

I also wondered off to IOR, Do you know if they make binocs as good as they make scopes?

 

On the SL I found some steiner's 10x28mm "rocky" I have never heard of them, I am looking for some info on these

 

I wish I could look through some of these myself, I can at the store, but I find ,with optics, that my first impression changes dramatically when I start to actualy use them.

 

I do appreciate the info and the punctuality silver

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 12:07
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Originally posted by Anthony Anthony wrote:

 

I also wondered off to IOR, Do you know if they make binocs as good as they make scopes?

 

IOR's make very good binos. Clear, tough, and inexpensive.

I'll give the devil his due here.....

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 14:06
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In case you were referring to me cheaptrick, I really like IOR full size porro binoculars, but I have never tried their roof-prism compacts.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 15:32
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You might also consider Leupold Mesa Series 8x23 ($100) or 10x23 ($116) 100% waterproof. 13.2 oz., 4.2", close focus 9.8'. Limited lifetime warranty. Also Aspheric lenses. www.leupold.com


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 15:56
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

In case you were referring to me cheaptrick,

 

Not this time, Oh Dark Lord!!

The "Devil" I was referring to was IOR/Val..... 

(This time) 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 16:05
Anthony View Drop Down
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She doesn't get along with porro prism binocs very well...

 

Which of these is the best choice considering price, optical quality, and durability

 

IOR B/GA

 

Steiner Predator

 

Steiner Safari

 

Steiner Wildlife

 

Steiner Merlin

 

Minox BR W

 

Pentax DCF MC II

 

Kowa BD25

 

Weaver Classic

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 17:09
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First choice IOR B/GA
Second choice Steiner Wildlife
Both are waterproof & built to withstand harsh conditions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 22:25
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Chech out the Pentax line they make good optics for the money.
Also, i know you said she preferred roof prisms but a good set of poro's are hard to beat especially if they are going to be compact models
good luck
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2006 at 22:59
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

In case you were referring to me cheaptrick,

 

Not this time, Oh Dark Lord!!

The "Devil" I was referring to was IOR/Val..... 

(This time) 

 

the thought of exploring the first statement scares me.

 

Cheap you don't like Romania?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2006 at 16:25
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Does anyone know if IOR compacts have phase coated prisms?

Thanks.
ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2006 at 19:26
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They do not mention the words 'phase coated prisms' in the ads that I have read, all they seem to make reference to is the Zeiss patented T3 coating. They talk about "the finest German optical glass"(superior optical glass), "full T3 ZEISS multicoating & anti-reflection treatment eliminating glare & maximizing light transmission", "the best glass in the world & the best lens coatings in the world".

Go to www.valdada.com & click on Product Reviews.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2006 at 10:02
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The product review you refer to does not make mention of phase-correction coatings because the review is of a 10x40 porro prism binocular.  The porro prism design does not use/require phase correction coatings as they do not exhibit the same degree of image degradation that is seen in roof prism models. 

 

There is no indication on the IOR/Valdada website that their compact binoculars (which are roof prism designs) incorporate phase correction coatings either.  This is somewhat strange considering the MSRPs listed on the website which are well above the level at which you would normally expect to see such coatings included.

 

Their schpeel about "superior glass" is crap as there are only a couple of manufacturers of  optical glass in the world and everybody (from the cheapest to the most expensive brands) buy their glass from the same places.  It's not the glass itself but rather, what is later done with the glass that creates a superior (or inferior) optic.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2006 at 12:54
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According to the Products Review & the web-site info. the glass in question comes from Schott Glasswerk in Germany. IOR (Industry Optic Romania) has been in business since 1936 & today is one of the largest suppliers of military optics in the world. By 1975 this company became involved with Carl Zeiss, Hensoldt, Leitz & Leica.
Schott glass in Germany is regarded as the finest optical glass in the world. By association with the above named people & companies I would say that this is far from being c---.
The Europeans have their own glass as do the Asians.

Anyway, I talked with Val at Valdada in Littleton Colorado & he stated that the 10x25, 8x42 & 10x42 roof prism binoculars ALL HAVE phase coated prisms. In the future they will be updating their web-site. They have new models that are not posted on the internet. He did mention the following porro-prisms: 8x56, 10x50 & 15x60.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2006 at 13:01
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Thanks for checking this out, Bird Watcher.

As for Schot glass, there have been some discussions on this.  The two premier optical glass suppliers in the world are Ohara (Japanes) and Schott (German).  These two melt glass for the vast majority of high-quality optical instruments out there.  There are others of course for less expensive stuff in Korea and China.

Either way you can not pass any judgement on a scope or a binocular simply because it uses Schott or Ohara or any other glass (with an exception of some Chinese sourced glass being less clear due to melt inconsistences, but that is improving).  Follow up grinding, polishing, coating, etc is what sets some lenses apart from others.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2006 at 15:45
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Hello anthony

 

Sightron SIII compacts are very good, they are phase coated and have

very good glass and constuction. These can be found at a great price.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2006 at 17:00
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Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

According to the review, Schott glass in Germany is regarded as the finest optical glass in the world. By association with the above named people & companies I would say that this is far from being crap. (Check your Forum Rules & Policies:You agree not to post inaccurate material,etc.) 

 

What? Do you work for IOR?  Are you afraid of being called on false advertising? Whatever the reason, you need to be more careful about the accusations you spread.

 

Actually, what I posted is precisely accurate.  Koshkin provided a somewhat more detailed description of the same facts [Thank you, Koshkin;  I was having trouble remembering the name of the Japanese glass manufacturer.] but, the basic fact remains the same. Almost all optics manufacturers buy their glass from the two major glass vendors.  The fact that IOR is using Schott glass is insignificant because so does every European manufacturer (Zeiss, Swarovski, Kahles, Leica, Steiner, etc., etc., etc.)  Thus the glass does not make the binocular superior.  If anything it suggests that they are basically "run-of-the-mill." What each of these companies does with the glass after they buy it, ie the grinding, polishing, and coating, etc. mentioned by Koshkin [Again, thank you!] is what makes for a superior (or inferior) optic. 

 

The mention of the manufacturer of the glass (whether it be placed covertly in a "review" or just in overt advertising copy,) is nothing more than an attempt to impress those who don't know anything about the manufacture of optics. It is (as I said before) pure, unadulterated crap - very much similar to the vast majority of the world's advertising campaigns.  This is not to say that IOR makes inferior quality items.  It just means that the fact that they buy their glass from Schott Glasswerks is nothing special.  It certainly doesn't contribute to making their binoculars superior to any other major label.

 

If you have previously fallen for this advertising schpeel, I'm truly sorry.  Hopefully you haven't lost too much money on decisions based on its claims. Don't feel bad though, as most people probably wouldn't have known any better either. However, right here on OpticsTalk you have just had a learning experience which will help ensure that you don't continue to give any undue weight to the garbage spewed out by advertisers (or "reviewers," if you prefer that term) and as such, we will have protected you from making an ill-informed choice in your search for your ideal binocular.

 

Say, "thank you."

 

You're welcome... 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2006 at 22:32
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First of all, I don't work for IOR or any optics manufacturer or reviewer.
Secondly, I'm not afraid of sharing information.
Finally, just because you say something is c--- that doesn't make you the expert.
   


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2006 at 11:03
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Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

I hardly think that the consumers, who spend their hard-earned money, would classify Zeiss, Swarovski, Kahles, Leica, Steiner, and IOR as "basically run-of-the-mill."

 

Certainly not, but the glass they each use is. "Run of the mill" simply indicates something that is a basic, standard offering being neither special nor lacking in any respect.  Since each of them start with the same glass, that glass is therefore rightfully considered a basic, standard offering and is thus "run of the mill."

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

I understand all about grinding, polishing, and coating, etc., from your point of view. I was a photographer for almost fifteen years & everyone from Canon to Hasselblad to Leica to Minolta to Nikon to Olympus & Pentax, etc. did the exact same thing when it came to bragging about their optical glass & coatings, etc.

 

Grinding, polishing, and coating issues are not a function of "viewpoints" (regardless of whose.) They are very measurable processes that some companies do well and others....

Having been a photographer, you should know better than to place stock into the advertising claims and reviews offered in trade magazines, company publications, websites, etc. This is especially true as related to anything a given company is claiming makes their product superior to their competition.

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

OBVIOUSLY there is alot more to each of these companies than just their advertising campaigns.
 

 

While I'm willing to engage in a discourse as to the merits of this statement, I'm not so sure it is correct. While studying for my Master's Degree and in subsequent work experiences, I have spent many hours both reasearching advertising principles, campaigns, and strategies and also participating in the development of such advertising efforts.  Most of the time I find that advertising hype really is just that... hype.  What's really interesting though, is how advertising makes for a fascinating study of human emotional responses. What makes for a good advertising campaign is not good information but rather,  the presence of a solid emotional draw that cements an impression of the existence of a relationship between the company and the consumer and/or instills loyalty that keeps the consumer from even considering competing brands. Some companies are very good at this and others need a lot of help.

 

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

However, advertising is a legitimate form of educating consumers about each manufacturers product line, especially when you get beneath the surface. It's not ALL pure, unadulterated crap. For example, I am extremely interested in specifications data. A catalog or web-site without a spec. sheet is just not the same, for me.

 

Getting beneath the surface means understanding that claims like "superior glass" are simple advertising gimicks designed to deceive the average ill-informed consumer into thinking they have purchased something special. Some other examples of advertising lines that fit into this category would include Leupold's "Index-Matched Lens System," Swarovski's "Swoarobright and Swarodur," Carson Opticals "Lab Tested Light Transmission Summary," etc.  Certainly such advertising gimicks are not the sole purvue of optics manufacturers.  You can see examples in BoTech's "Absolute Zero," Scent Killer's "Seriously Disappear,"

Scent-Lock's "activated-carbon clothing," and GoodYear's "Hide and Seek rawhide camo ATV tires" campaigns. And you wouldn't believe the number of perfectly healthy men who, simply because they are over 40, believe that they will never be able to enjoy a normal, healthy, fulfilling sex-life unless they first take some Viagra, Levitra, or Cialis, etc. They've seen the ads on TV and are sure they need help.  Luckily, such pills can't be purchased without a prescription so these guys end up in clinics like mine, where our doctors patiently help them understand that these drugs really aren't for them.

 

While they can often be seen as a component of an advertisement campaign, spec sheets are (at least to me) somewhat different.   Spec sheets don't (generally) involve claims of superior workmanship, quality, performance, etc.  They simply provide the product's measurable and verifiable stats, based on somewhat standardized criterion for use in making comparisons.  Generally a spec sheet isn't good for determining how good/poor a particular product is since for example, a $2000 Leica binocular can have identical magnification, objective lens size, FOV, exit pupil, twilight factor, weight, size, etc. specs as a $50 Tasco but, only a fool would try to claim that the Tasco was an equal or better optical instrument.  So, while they are VERY important for their intended purposes, spec sheets only provide a very limited part of the equation.

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

  What you don't seem to realize is that you are putting all your eggs in one basket(the final product).

Well, of course I am.  It's only the final product that counts for anything.  Look, come over to my house sometime.  We'll go pick out a couple of the very best steaks available anywhere at any price. We'll get a gourmet chef to prepare one of them and the other we'll have prepared by my younger brother (who can't even boil water without burning it.)  I'll let you choose which steak you want to eat.  Would you care to place a wager on which one you'll want to pick?  In fact, I'll bet if we bought one superior steak and gave it to my brother to cook and also one inferior steak, giving it to the gourmet chef to cook, you'd still end up wanting to eat the chef's dish in the end. (Trust me, I've eaten my brother's cooking!) Starting with good raw materials is a good thing but, that doesn't mean you're automatically going to end up with something worthwhile in the end. Similarly, starting out with "lesser" materials doesn't always mean a poor product will result.  Just look at all the poeple who just love their 6x32 Leupold Katmais. These binoculars use "lesser" BAK 7 prisms (rather than the "better" and more popular BAK 4) and yet many people swear by how wonderfully this little binocular performs.

 

The raw materials are indeed important.  But, it's what each manufacturer does with those raw materials that really makes a difference.

 

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

The Europeans(Germans?) START OUT with the FINEST optical glass available in their part of the world & give us a variety of excellent final products.
The Asian market(Japanese?) STARTS OUT with the FINEST optical glass in their part of the planet & gives us a variety of excellent final products.

 

But, you've just proved my initial point.  Since the Gemans and the Japanese are ALL starting out with the "FINEST optical glass available," the fact that IOR might also buy glass from the VERY SAME glass manufacturers cannot be legitimately used as evidence that they are providing a superior product.  All it says is that they aren't short-changing themselves from the get-go. Therefore, in respect to the materials used to make their product, they become just "one of the guys" or in other words "run of the mill."

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:


p.s. If you "protected" your kids from 'everything' in life, how would they learn and grow to maturity?
 

 

As I was not the one attempting to muzzle anyone's comments by falsely alleging some unsupportable violation of "forum

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2006 at 13:10
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With all due respect,
That you do not understand is obvious.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2006 at 13:21
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Anthony:

 

IOR's are kind of an enigma for me.

I think they are coming around now better, or so I hear.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2006 at 13:42
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Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

Webster's dictionary/definition/run-of-the-mill:NOT selected, or special, ordinary, average.
You can't have it BOTH ways; if it is run-of-the mill it IS NOT the FINEST optical quality available.

 

Webster's is nice and certainly is a useful tool for the masses but, is not regarded as authoritative in academia. Your better off searching for word use/origins in an etymological dictionary.  You can find a few online if you don't want ot go buy one.

 

"Run-of-the-mill" is a phrase that dates back originally to 1909 when it was first coined to refer to material yielded by a mill, etc., before sorting for quality. Figurative usage is traced back to the year 1930 where it became en-vogue for describing the basic product one could receive from a given "mill." Whatever the normal, everyday quality was (high or low,) that was what you could expect from a given producer of a given product.  

 

The key component here is that "run-of-the-mill" has no inherent reference to overall quality so, it is very possible to be both run-of-the-mill (if that's what a particular "mill" produces) and the finest quality at the same time.  Thus Swarovski, who allegedly makes one of the finest binoculars in the world, produces a product that (for them) is run-of-the-mill. What you get is exactly what you expect from their "mill." They only become viewed as superior as you compare their product to those of other manufacturers. The high quality glass made by Schott Glasswerks, etc. is likewise run-of-the-mill, regardless of its relative quality or who buys that glass or what they do with it later.

 

 

 

 

You don't by any chance, happen to go by the handle "E" on other forums?

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Hello anthony

 

Did you find a very good compact at a good price.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2006 at 19:25
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If I can get away with it I am going to buy some Sightron S3's, Otherwise I am just going to get the pentax DCF's. It will be a christmas present, so I have plenty of time to decide. I may go back to the original plan of the steiners or IOR's. When I do order then I will put a post under this topic.
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