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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 00:50
preacherman View Drop Down
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Why they chose what calibers they used as sniper rounds. Why didn't they choose far better and more effective calibers. If you had a say in the new sniper equipment what would you have done from WWII on to present day.
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The choice of calibers and equipment is political.  THAT is it.  There have been many instances, throughout history, where a different weapon than the one "chosen" proved far superior in testing.  You must understand that the "government philosophy" for selection is NOT (and possibly never will be) "Is it the BEST?"... the selection criteria is "Is it adequate?".  There are so many instances and proof of the insanity of this process, a process whereby bureaucrats who have never held, never fired a weapon, the closest they have ever come is watching a movie, have the power to select what people use.  Some of the most ignorant and assinine people you can imagine are "in charge" of choosing what our soldiers use in combat. And, in fairness, there are some soldiers who are in the decision process who simply have NO BUSINESS being there.  They choose by personal like and dislike, by caveat.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 09:26
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Even back in the 20s the Army ordnance testers allowed calibers as low as .256 and the original design for the M1 Garand was in .276. But there was already the .30-06 in inventory, the Springfield chambered in that as well as the BAR. So it wasn't like nobody was aware of better alternatives, there were other factors involved.
 
During and after WWII, what most of refer to as the .308 Win (there are slight differences between it and 7.62 NATO...mostly of interest to handloaders) was put into service. Because it was the same caliber, M1s could be adapted to fire it (with moderate success). Again there were better cartridges tested both here and among our allies. But it was at least a better round in many respects than the .30-06. Match shooters in the '60s halved their groups compared to .30-06 shooters.
 
That may have been partly due to the way they shoot out of a semi-auto like the M14 because there are modern target shooters like German Salazar that use .30-06 with great success. So I'm not saying a .30-06 is no good, just that the .308/7.62 was not a terrible replacement.
 
A few years ago, I read with some dismay an article by Bryan Litz explaining the advantages of 7mm or smaller dia. bullets over .308 cal bullets. In short, you get better ballistics and less recoil (or for the same recoil), given a standard rifle weight and shooter size/weight. I've still stuck with the .308, partly because I have really good dies for it and a lot of brass. But it's also a cartridge that will gitter done. Is it the best? No. But it's no slouch either.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 11:51
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Please, please let's stay in our lane and not make a "Why does the US military use the 5.56.mm?" U turn... ;)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 12:31
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Why did you bring it up then?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 12:40
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Logistics is another reason.
It doesn't matter if you have the best precision rifle in the best carteidge in the world, if your ammo is tied up a hundred miles away in the supply chain.
In WWII, the Germans loved the MP-44 in 8x33mm, and they produced a suffecient number of guns and ammo to have an effect on the battlefield. The problem for the Germans was that their supply lines had been so disrupted, that they couldn't get guns and ammo to where it needed to go. Everybody used 8x57mm and 9x19mm so it was easier to get it to everybody, maybe through in a case of 8x33, just in case somebody in that unit has one of the new wonder weapons.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 15:20
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I was kidding, Bud.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 15:29
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so was I... it's what I do... Bucky
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 15:36
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The military adopts "weapon systems", that means everything from the raw materials to the loaded round and guns that fire it. Everything has to be tested to make sure it will work under the conditions it will be used in.
That testing is neither cheap nor easy.
Take the .338 Lapua, the development began in the middle 1980's and the system did not come into use until the late 1990's with some NATO countries.
We adopted it in the 2000's, SEALS and Delta earlier.
I had a discussion with an individual about a weapon system he wanted the US military to adopt, I asked him if he would be able to provide the firearm's and ammo by the 100,00's in say a three year period.
He choked, literally when he realized the capital outlay required to buy the materials, the space, the production equipment and staff and training.
People wonder why say a company like Leupold gets a production contract for scopes when there are better choices. It is because they can deliver large quantities and maintain the specified quality.
When the US military orders equipment it is in the 1,000's, 10,000's, 100,000's and 1,000,000's and sometimes 1,000,000,000's.
So Fred's Boutique Rifle and Cartridge Company simply can not provide the the equipment in the quantities at the quality required.
The SCAR program is a perfect example, a large buy of the equipment was promised, then the requirement changed and FN the winner was stuck with large development and production costs for a system that will never pay off. This would have bankrupted Fred's if they had been allowed to compete and won, they would have had to borrow large amounts money to pay for the development, testing, productions set up and delivery of a system that was then effectively terminated.
This is why only the bigger companies can survive in that kind of environment and why the prices are so high.
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 17:24
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The other edge of 'Economy of Scale'!!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 18:37
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I have had the best Army shooters that I know tell me Army Marksmanship program is broken. Quite simply soldiers need marksmanship instruction and range time.  Ammo cost is a huge issue and they have essentially phased out the 22 cal training rifles and pistols from years back,  that was a mistake.  The new plan is video games with special simulator    rifles and you shoot at the screen and it scores the hits, no brass to pick up no burnt powder no lead polution Whatever
You start be teaching marksmanship  Sharp Shooter   a trained marksman familiar and confident with his rifle irregardless of the caliber make etc is a formidable force.  A trained man with an O3A3 Springfield can kill you from a long way off.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 18:46
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Training is my big "pet peeve".  There just is not enough of it.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 19:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 20:09
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well gentlemen you are all right to a point.By the way beltfed we all feel that way who served we were never released from our oath either although I was raised by a man who served in all three WWII Korea and a partial tour in nam. I Guess my question is this the 30-06 was and still is a fantastic weapon with todays propellants it whips the pants off the current 7.62 nato sniper round.

They were still all tooled up from WWI Iwhy try to change to the less effective round? Thats where the politics comes in by people who's combat experience comes in the form of video games. and the worst wound they have seen is a boo boo on their kids knees. enter the second opinion here. People who choose our weapons don't typically give much of a sh##.

The next opinion I love because it is the simple truth lousy training programs within every service with the notable exception of the USMC. Each man is a rifleman first  this means that they don't often graduate a man from basic OR MCT without them shooting expert. The Art of the rifleman is just not learned properly anymore. What happens when these kids get behind a trigger under life and death pressure and their weapon jams? unless the training has been through they are dead. The choice of the 7.62 has cost many a sniper a critical opportunity because he simply doesnt have the range or bullet weight.

When they developed the .338 Lapua in my opinion it was wasted effort again we already had the '338 win mag we have 30 cal. magnums running out our collective ears not to mention for those who like it the 7mm magnum. IMO the main problem is not recoil it's too little time on the range for the typical 0311 or 8641 now(o317) to adjust to the recoil. I was shooting a 30-06 and a 45-70 when I was 13 the45-70 has some fairly stout recoil. If you think about it the recoil of an 06 is NOT much more than a 7.62  If you had the choices of all the commercial cartridges what would YOU pick for us to use?

I wager that you guys would pick far better calibers.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 20:29
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Thanks by  the way guys for a great response form the FNG to the sites first blog. Mike 650, great pic do you know what unit that was?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 20:33
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Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:


I too love this pic, Mike. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 20:53
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Of course it is a sniper team I recognize the gear........................ bolt weapon and  m14 is kind of obvious do you know the men in the pic?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 21:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2012 at 22:09
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Personally I think the 5.56 is about as effective as they can make it they would be better with a 75-77 grain bullet. It make em just a little more effective but they are still subject to wind to much.
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