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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 09:45
RifleDude View Drop Down
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I realize it's pretty new and in short supply, but anybody shot one? Thoughts?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 15:00
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Best I can do is point you to the Sigforum. There maybe other posts on the 224 as well. But this is the one I saw.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4610045113
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 15:05
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Also Top Gun Supply does have them in stock.

https://www.topgunsupply.com/p224/
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 19:44
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Thanks for the reply, Sparky!

Actually, that has to be the ONLY online thread about the P224 I haven't read already! Too many discussions seem to degenerate into speculation and harsh criticisms about the P224 from folks who've never even seen one in person, much less shot one.

I can find one easy if I decided to buy one; there are several for sale right now on Gunbroker.

I'm a fan of the "classic series" all-metal Sigs (just as I'm a fan of the all-steel Kahrs), and have never totally warmed up to polymer frames, even though I know full well there's nothing structurally / mechanically wrong with polymer done right. I'm just old-fashioned about certain things, one of them being that plastic has no place on a fine firearm. My concern about the P224 is whether the seemingly high bore axis relative to the short grip might make the pistol harder to control, though I've had no difficulty controlling my even smaller Kahr MK40.  But, the Kahr has a lower bore axis, and the frame is stainless, so it isn't really top heavy like the P224 looks to be. I have a P229, and the P224's bore axis is the same height above the grip as the P229... however, the P229 also has longer grip purchase to help keep the muzzle down for fast target reacquisition. Having spent a lot of primers behind my P229, the Sig M of A is like an old friend to me, but I'm looking for something just a tad more concealable... and, to be honest, I just want a new gun... but I also don't want to be a beta tester.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 23:34
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You are welcome. I have only read about the 224, but it just does not fit any need for me. Plus I have not shot a polymer Sig that I liked. I did not like either the 290 or the 250. But I do like Sigs, I have two 229s one in 40S&W and one in 9mm. And the same in my two 226s one in 40 and one in 9. Since you are familiar with Sigs I would take a long hard look at a 239. I am looking hard at one to replace my Kahr CW9. I shot the 239 very well and I have yet to talk with anyone who did not shot it well. I am also toying with a S&W Shield in 9 after I shot one last fall and was very impressed with it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 12:16
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Yeah, I can't stand any of the polymer Sigs either. My wife has a Kahr CW9, by the way, and she shoots it very well. I'm impressed with it. Just out of curiosity, are you looking to replace yours because you don't like it, it hasn't run reliably, or are you just looking for something different?

I like the P239 pretty well; I'm just not in the single stack mag mindset when I consider a Sig, and I like the fact the P224 is a little smaller while retaining higher mag capacity.

Good feedback on the ShieldI I like things about that pistol, but again, I've got an anti-polymer frame bias I'd have to shake before I could consider one... even though the M&P series in general have maybe the best grip ergos I've ever felt.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 12:25
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Ted, I have a shield in 40. The single stack is good for carry, the pistol fits my hand, and i would highly recommend it. Bought the nine(tired of waiting for the forty) but traded back for the 40 when it came available. No regrets. Thankful I got this just before the politics drove the price up. Paid 400. Can't get it now for under 560. Thirty days made all the difference!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 12:43
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I hear ya, Sam. Politics have driven up the price of lots of stuff in gundom!

I have no issue with single stack. My Kahr MK40 is a single stack .40, and I love it and shoot it pretty damn well for such a tiny "pocket" pistol! I also have a Rohrbaugh R9S 9, an H&K P7 USP, and a 1911, so I'm pretty well covered for carry options in all sizes of single stack pistols.

For my next toy, the idea of combining more mag capacity than single stacks offer with smallish size for concealment kinda intrigued me, and I'm not a Glock guy (sorry CTSmile), so that option's off the table.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 15:45
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Yeah, I can't stand any of the polymer Sigs either. My wife has a Kahr CW9, by the way, and she shoots it very well. I'm impressed with it. Just out of curiosity, are you looking to replace yours because you don't like it, it hasn't run reliably, or are you just looking for something different?

I like the P239 pretty well; I'm just not in the single stack mag mindset when I consider a Sig, and I like the fact the P224 is a little smaller while retaining higher mag capacity.

Good feedback on the ShieldI I like things about that pistol, but again, I've got an anti-polymer frame bias I'd have to shake before I could consider one... even though the M&P series in general have maybe the best grip ergos I've ever felt.


For the most part I like my Kahr and I do shoot it fairly well, but I have to concentrate more to do it. And the mags can be difficult at times. Where as the 239 is easy to shoot as well as my 226 and 229 Sigs. The 239 is also thinner than the 229 so it is easier to conceal for me when it is warmer outside. And lastly the 239 is a proven performer.

For me the only M&P that I liked was the Shield in 9mm. It was very easy to shoot well for me. In the past I would have been looking at a 40S&W but with today's ammo there is no need for it.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 16:09
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Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

In the past I would have been looking at a 40S&W but with today's ammo there is no need for it.




Sorry to go off topic a bit here, but this comment always makes me wonder.  I carry a nine most of the time as well, so I am not intending to argue with you.  But everyone always says with today's ammo a 9 is as good as a 40 or 45.  But the .40 and .45 is todays ammo as well and has the same performance increase as the 9mm stuff does.  So that would lead me to believe that a .40 is still better in regard to making a slightly bigger hole and maybe penetrating a little deeper because of the added weight.  And the same goes for the .45.  Or is my thought process all wrong?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 16:24
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I think the same ST.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 16:43
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:


Sorry to go off topic a bit here, but this comment always makes me wonder.  I carry a nine most of the time as well, so I am not intending to argue with you.  But everyone always says with today's ammo a 9 is as good as a 40 or 45.  But the .40 and .45 is todays ammo as well and has the same performance increase as the 9mm stuff does.  So that would lead me to believe that a .40 is still better in regard to making a slightly bigger hole and maybe penetrating a little deeper because of the added weight.  And the same goes for the .45.  Or is my thought process all wrong?


I tend to agree with your thinking, but I believe what he means is that the improvements have made 9mm so much more effective than it ever has been in the past to the point that it's no longer so much a "cartridge effectiveness vs. mag capacity" debate anymore, since you can now have both. The latest police engagement studies I've seen seem to support the premise that there hasn't been a statistically significant difference in first round stops or lethality between LEOs using 9mm, .357, .40, or .45.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 16:46
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I think along the lines of, a 9 will do pretty much all you will "need" an allow you a smaller gun or more mag capacity while doing it.  Will modern 40 or 45 outperform modern 9, ballistically yes, but does one kill "deader"??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 16:58
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Right. Plus, given its chief virtues of lower recoil and more rounds in reserve, which would help provide better control, faster follow-up, and possibly more kill zone hits, couldn't a credible argument be made that perhaps 9mm may actually be MORE effective in a real-world engagement?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 17:04
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

provide better control, faster follow-up, and possibly more kill zone hits, 


That is actually one of my reasons for selling off my .40s and going to 9mm.  Plus my wife shoots the .9mm much better so its easier to deal with one less caliber.

Buy my biggest reason is, they all suck so I may as well get one that will hold as many rounds as possible til I can get my hands on a rifle. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 17:31
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http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

Handgun Cartridge Power Chart

By Chuck Hawks


Caliber Load Bullet MV (fps) ME (ft. lbs.) Penetration (10% gel.) AIT (goats at Strasbourg) One Shot Stop % Test Brl.
.22LR CCI, Rem, Win Hi.Vel. 40gr.LRN 955 81 12.8" n/a 21% unk.
.22LR CCI,Rem,Win Hi.Vel. 37grLHP 975 78 10.3" n/a 29% unk.
.22LR Rem. Yellow Jacket 33gr.TCHP 1259 116 n/a n/a 33% 6" Colt
.22LR CCI Stinger 32gr.LHP 1262 113 9.8" n/a 34% 6" Colt
.22WMR CCI +V 30gr.HP 1450 140 9.2" n/a 40% unk.
.22WMR CCI +V 30gr.HP 1300 120 n/a n/a n/a 2" NAA
.22WMR Winchester 40gr.JHP 1400 174 13" n/a 42% 6.5" Ruger
.22WMR Winchester 40gr.JHP 1098 108 n/a n/a n/a 2" NAA
.22WMR Federal 50gr.JHP 817 74 n/a n/a n/a 2" NAA
.25ACP Winchester 45gr.Ex.Pt. 815 66 13.8" n/a 25% 2" test
.25ACP All 50gr.FMJ 760 64 18" n/a 23% unk.
.25ACP MagSafe Defender 22gr.Frag. 1610 n/a 6" n/a 41%est. 2.5" test
.32ACP Winchester 60gr.STHP 970 125 6.5" n/a 63% 3.2" Wthr.
.32ACP Magsafe Defender 50gr.Frag. 1250 191 7.8" n/a 57%est. 3.5" test
.380ACP Federal 90gr.JHP 1005 200 14.4" 11.06 sec. 69% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Rem. Golden Saber 102gr.JHP 925 194 9.4" n/a 64% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Remington 88gr.JHP 1000 195 12.8" 13.46 sec. 54% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Federal Hydra-Shok 90gr.JHP 1007 200 10.5" 10.94 sec. 69% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Cor-Bon +P 90gr.JHP 1041 217 9" 11.12 sec. 70% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Fed, Rem, Win. 95gr.FMJ 955 190 17" 22.8 sec. 51% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP CCI Gold Dot 90gr.JHP 1030 212 8" n/a 67% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Glaser Blue 70gr.Frag. 1313 268 5" 7.94 sec. 75% 3.6" SIG
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 17:32
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:


Buy my biggest reason is, they all suck so I may as well get one that will hold as many rounds as possible til I can get my hands on a rifle. 


Yep! My hope is that if, God forbid, I ever have to use a CC pistol in self-defense, that it acts as a deterrent without actually having to fire a shot, which happens in many cases. I personally wouldn't want to be shot by a firearm of any chambering!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 18:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 19:15
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That info is very dated, as it doesn't include more modern ammo. Plus, there number of engagements using 9mm dwarfs the other rounds by a considerable margin, over a longer span of time, with old tech bullets thrown in the mix, so the data on it will naturally look less favorable. More recent tests conducted (I posted on here a couple months ago) show much less difference between the major self-defense rounds. Current ballistic gel tests with modern bullets (Gold Dot, HST, Critical Defense, etc.) has mirrored the field data by showing not much difference in actual wound channel size when the best bullet designs are selected for each caliber.

Edit: Actually, the second link you provided in your 2nd post confirms the above statements about there being little real world difference in penetration and wound size in the real world, given good bullet designs in all.


Edited by RifleDude - January/31/2013 at 19:21
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Bottom line: compared to rifles and shotguns, the popular auto pistol rounds -- all of them -- suck.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 21:23
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Ted I had some newer statistics but I cant find them thought I posted them here somewhere about a month ago.
What I can tell you from actual experience is several things.  First no matter what you get shot with, it ruins your whole day.  Little guns may be little but it hurts to get shot with them.  Big guns are much more effective at keeping bad guys off of you, they command more respect.  I tend to prefer 45acp 44 mag .357 and 40 S&W.  Use the 155 gr ammo in the 40 S&W because much of the 18O grain fails to penetrate sufficiently in deer size game. .357 mag truely is the cartridge to beat when it come to handgun calibers because most people can handle that amount or recoil and its energy is able to knock a deer down right where it stood with one good hit.  The old saying is that if it does not have a 4 or a 5 in the caliber dont bring it to a gunfight. Shotguns and rifles are at least 40 % more effective than the best handguns at stopping a bad guy from getting to you under stress.    The 45acp has the following that it does because it has earned the reputation of being a man stopper able to stop drug crazed felons.  9mm may be a fine pistol and I have owned several or them that shot very well however I have never been comfortable with a 9mm no matter how many bullets it holds and following getting their ass kicked FBI no longer uses 9mm because they learn from the errors of the past. Another lesson learned the hard way in Waco is that semi auto .308 will smoke you even if your wearing your superman costume.  A bullet to the brain is the only knock out hit even a direct shot to the heart leaves 12 to 15 seconds of reaction time  for the bad guy to hurt you. There are several truths about handgun one is that some people are better off with a .22 that they will go out and shoot than a larger gun that they cant or wont afford to practice with. Another is that it is better to have a small or medium size gun that you will take with you, than it is to have a  huge gun that you left at home because it was uncomfortable to carry.   Also having the correct holster makes a huge differenc.  So I may not personally like a 9mm but they do have a place now that they are .380 size people will carry them.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/31/2013 at 21:29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 22:55
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http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

No question, long guns are always more effective in stopping a threat. Give me a rifle or shotgun any day. But, since I can't hide a long gun under my shirttail or in my pocket...

The data in the link above does not support the contention that .45 has a statistically significant advantage in stopping power in real world engagements. I've seen other recent studies on the topic that pretty much echo these results.

On the FBI choice of the Glock 22/23 .40, 2 things: one, much of the data used to determine the issue cartridge was based on penetration data gathered well before the modern JHPs used today were introduced. Second, when it comes to federal agencies, politics plays as much a role in what gear is selected as any other factor.

By the way, my choice for primary CCW chambering is .40. I just recognize that today's improved JHP offerings and +P loads have dramatically changed 9mm performance vs. what was possible 20 years ago, and 20 year old data is still used today to make the "only calibers starting in .4 count" case.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 23:02
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Urif.... well said. Any gun you have with you is better than the one you left at home in the nightstand.  For dress up occasions and pedaling my road bike I pack an 11 oz. seven shot S & W .22 Magnum revolver in a pocket holster stoked with Hornady 45 grain personal defense ammo.  Otherwise daily carry is a full or commander size 1911 in .45 ACP or .38 Super.   I'm considering a Kahr CW or CM 9 upgrade from the .22 Magnum for the light small carry.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 23:37
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Sorry Ted. I knew after I clicked post reply that I probably had opened up a can of worms. I personally am just fine with a 9mm now. And my personal thoughts are as long as I have good SD ammo. Which for me is either Corbon DPX, Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket, Speer Gold Dot or Rem Golden Saber. I used to carry a 45 but after talking with an individual who used to be a firearms instructor for the feds and a former Captain with the HP about what they carry I changed to 9mm. They both felt that it was more than enough to get the job done. As SVT wrote " but does one kill "deader"??". The debate on the different calibers is like Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge. Bottom line I carry a 9mm and sometimes a 380, you carry what ever you wish.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 23:39
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Right. Plus, given its chief virtues of lower recoil and more rounds in reserve, which would help provide better control, faster follow-up, and possibly more kill zone hits, couldn't a credible argument be made that perhaps 9mm may actually be MORE effective in a real-world engagement?


+1

A friend of mine sent me an article about a shooting where he lives with I believe six or seven officers trying to stop one individual who was shooting at them. The officers were using Glock 22Cs and they fired I believe over 70 rounds and only hit their target about a half a dozen times. Can not stop someone if you can not hit them.



Edited by Sparky - January/31/2013 at 23:49
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