New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - SHTF  AK vs. AR and why???
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

SHTF AK vs. AR and why???

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options Page  1 2>
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2010 at 21:17
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Scope Swapper

Joined: October/17/2009
Location: STATESIDE
Status: Offline
Points: 2455
You fill it in...

People might be surprised to know I am a huge fan of the AK (Even in SA) and have caught a lot of crap for it.

I want to know specifics. If you don't trust the AK tell me why and sight a personal example if possible.

I was asked this question by someone who was at the range one day and they wanted to argue with me about how much of a POS an AK was...





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2010 at 21:27
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
check with the guys in vietnam who were issued the first versions of the m16 they'll tell you. the ak goes boom every time what more is there to say? are they as accurate? no. do they kill you dead? yeah. most feared small arms on the planet in my book, also the most recognized.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2010 at 21:37
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 28758
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

check with the guys in vietnam who were issued the first versions of the m16 they'll tell you. the ak goes boom every time what more is there to say? are they as accurate? no. do they kill you dead? yeah. most feared small arms on the planet in my book, also the most recognized.
very well summarized!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 14:41
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: November/28/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 129
my shtf rifle of all shtf rifles is an ak-74.

no i didnt make a typo, an ak74 is an ak47 rifle but one that shoots the 5.45x39mm round. that round is deadlier than the 5.56 but not as recoil sensitive as the 762x39. so follow up shots such as 2 to the chest one to the head are more accurate.

my pops came out of nam (staff sarge in marines) then became a cop (before they had swat/ems, back when regular officers did the job) and later became a detective. theres two things he always told me:

1. a revolver is more reliable than a glock
2. an ak47 will fire no matter what you throw at it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 14:51
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
Originally posted by outlawskinnyd outlawskinnyd wrote:

my shtf rifle of all shtf rifles is an ak-74.

no i didnt make a typo, an ak74 is an ak47 rifle but one that shoots the 5.45x39mm round. that round is deadlier than the 5.56 but not as recoil sensitive as the 762x39. so follow up shots such as 2 to the chest one to the head are more accurate.

my pops came out of nam (staff sarge in marines) then became a cop (before they had swat/ems, back when regular officers did the job) and later became a detective. theres two things he always told me:

1. a revolver is more reliable than a glock
2. an ak47 will fire no matter what you throw at it.

or in it for that matter, mud, sand water diesel fuel it dont care.

where is my ammo? is all you need to knowBig Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 14:54
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 9530
Originally posted by outlawskinnyd outlawskinnyd wrote:

the 5.45x39mm round. that round is deadlier than the 5.56 but not as recoil sensitive as the 762x39.


How do you figure that?  It is a slightly smaller round with less velocity behind it. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 14:57
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 9530
I will stick with my AR.  I took a 4 day advanced rifle class in the Nevada desert, lots of rolling in the dirt being real rough with my AR and 1200 rounds and no cleaning and it never had a single problem.  Just squirted a little CLP on the carrier each morning and it ran great.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 15:04
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 28758
AR's have came a long way since the inception in nam'
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 15:07
shooter07 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
Shooting Sprout

Joined: June/12/2010
Location: PA
Status: Offline
Points: 4843
Then = AK

Now = AR and it's not even close


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 18:59
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: November/28/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Originally posted by outlawskinnyd outlawskinnyd wrote:

the 5.45x39mm round. that round is deadlier than the 5.56 but not as recoil sensitive as the 762x39.


How do you figure that?  It is a slightly smaller round with less velocity behind it. 

shoot something with a 5.45 and something with a 5.56...look at the wound it causes. does the 5.56 get the job done...of course the ar is a great weapon. 

but the 5.45 has an internal cavity which causes it to tumble and pretty much mame whatever it hits.
theres a reason why the afghans call it the "poison bullet." 

a carbine course in nevada is not like iraq or afghan. i dont care if your instructor is sargant f**king slaughter, your not nearly putting any amount of stress on it comparable to overseas. period. done. 

also if an ar is so much better now over an ak how come if it gets submerged in water you have to tilt the barrel down to empty it out. ive done that to my ak on purpose and it fired fine. now we have ar's with gas pistons (imo arent needed unless using a pistol gas length) that mimick the ak's function (long stroke). the only way you can shoot an ar with a barrel full of water is with a gas piston. (not like we are ever gonna need to though)

if you wanna come out on top of this debate do what i did and get both. shoot both. shoot an animal with on, a yote or anything you feel you can shoot making an ethical kill. and look at difference on the animals insides when using a 5.56 and 5.45

or just build an ar that shoots 5.45 if you can get reliable magazines. 

i wouldnt wanna get shot with either. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 19:14
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: November/28/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 129
btw the 5.45 has way better penetration that the m855 any day. even against other ar ammo. all you gotta do is look it up.

and for the other comment about bullet weight and velocity and fps, thats from a 20" barrel. i doubt hes using a 20" barrel.

also what twist rate? 1 in 7 over stabalizes a 5.56's terminal power at 55g. a 1 in 12 doesnt, however its not as accurate a rifle then. 

im sorry im just posting sh*t in no order im just on my way out to see true grit ill let you know how it all is!

ps- dont go by faulkner or whatever the guys name is. he doesnt test things fairly.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 20:09
tahqua View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Have You Driven A Ford Lately?

Joined: March/27/2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8047
Originally posted by outlawskinnyd outlawskinnyd wrote:


1. a revolver is more reliable than a glock



I love my Smith and Colt wheel guns. But, the Glock wins the sandbox test everytime. It doesn't take a whole lot of grit to bind up the clock works in a finely tuned revolver.
All of my Glocks have gone boom every time for many years. All of my heavy use S&W revolvers have bound up from dirt, mostly sand.


Edited by tahqua - December/22/2010 at 20:09
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 21:10
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Scope Swapper

Joined: October/17/2009
Location: STATESIDE
Status: Offline
Points: 2455
Originally posted by shooter07 shooter07 wrote:

Then = AK

Now = AR and it's not even close




Please Expound on this.

I am not be sarcastic just want to know why.

Wondering what is the distance between them if it not close.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 21:17
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Scope Swapper

Joined: October/17/2009
Location: STATESIDE
Status: Offline
Points: 2455
Hey lets add sidearms as well.

I am really interested in this AR vs. AK

I do not care the caliber if you have preference state why the caliber choice and in which build of weapon system.

My thoughts on SHTF I am guessing digging in isn't going to be an option for all of us so I might choose something I can pick up anywhere and get ammo for 5.56/.223 or 7.62 might win that but hey if you have 5.45 or 6.8 in bulk more power to ya.

I even thought about the SIAGA with BUCK and SLUG.  12gauge version. 10 rd 15 rd or 20 rnd drum That would be able to put the hurtin on pretty good


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - December/22/2010 at 21:19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 21:26
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4615
Originally posted by outlawskinnyd outlawskinnyd wrote:

btw the 5.45 has way better penetration that the m855 any day. even against other ar ammo. all you gotta do is look it up.


I'd take the Army's new 5.56 round over a 5.45 anything: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

I'd also prefer an AR because of the availability in this country of ammo, mags and a plentiful variety of parts. And, if the sights on an AK-47 are anything like the ones on the SKS that I got a chance to fire once, I didn't care for them. But I guess aimed fire is not a priority with the AK. Don't get me wrong, it's an impressive weapon for what it is but I don't think it or its variants are better than a modern AR. Also, another thing about the early years with the M-16: The ammo was often a problem in Vietnam, not the rifles themselves.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 21:46
shooter07 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
Shooting Sprout

Joined: June/12/2010
Location: PA
Status: Offline
Points: 4843
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Originally posted by shooter07 shooter07 wrote:

Then = AK

Now = AR and it's not even close




Please Expound on this.

I am not be sarcastic just want to know why.

Wondering what is the distance between them if it not close.


Advances in technology and build quality on AR's over the years, especially since the AWB ended back in 04. I know plenty of people who have put 10's of thousands of rounds down range on AR's without even cleaning them fully. A little lube on the carrier group is all you need now. Barrel life is amazingly long and accuracy isn't even close between the 2. The AK is great for wars of old, when you had huge battles with large #'s of troops engaged in open fire warfare. This is not how we fight today (i served in Iraq and Afghanistan). Battles are more surgical and precise and the AR can be put into hundreds of configurations with different barrel lengths, types, different twist rates etc.

Having a quality M4/AR build will survive torture testing in extreme heat/cold, sand, mud etc. And again, accuracy allows the AR carrier to hit targets who may be carrying an AK well before that AK even has a prayer of getting into an effective killing range.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 23:06
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: November/28/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Originally posted by outlawskinnyd outlawskinnyd wrote:


1. a revolver is more reliable than a glock



I love my Smith and Colt wheel guns. But, the Glock wins the sandbox test everytime. It doesn't take a whole lot of grit to bind up the clock works in a finely tuned revolver.
All of my Glocks have gone boom every time for many years. All of my heavy use S&W revolvers have bound up from dirt, mostly sand.

its my pops he's just old school hhaha what can i say 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2010 at 23:33
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: November/28/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 129
and hes talking about police work
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2010 at 03:49
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
A well built AR is very reliable, although on average AK is more likely to be reliable through just about any environmental conditions you might through at it.  That having been said, none of us is likely to encounter conditions where it would make any difference. 

AR is unquestionably a more accurate firearm, but for SHTF scenarios I am not sure that matters.  Perhaps more importantly, AR is easier to make inoperable via physical impact than an AK.  All you have to do is damage the buffer tube and it is done.  Typical AR magazines are also not exactly a paragon of durability, although there are some plastic ones that are reported to be very sturdy.  In that regard, AK with its magazines is a more rugged design.

On the other hand, AR is much easier to shoot well.  

Personally, I suspect that if you choose your gear carefully it makes no difference which system you go with as long as you practice with it.

As far as ammunition choice goes, between 5.56x45 and 5.45x39, I would go with the 5.56 every time.  

Most of the information I see on the web that talks about super lethality of 5.45x39 is certifiable BS.  Original 5.45 bullet (7N6 ammo) was well designed and created considerable wound profile primarily due to tumbling in the tissue.  Subsequent evolution of the 5.45 bullet took it in the direction of enhanced barrier penetration at the expense of lethality.

If that sounds familiar, you are right, that is effectively the same thing that happened as 5.56x45 ammo evolved toward M855 round.  In terms of lethality and barrier penetration, there is little to differentiate  5.45x39 ammo from comparable flavor of mil-spec 5.56x45.

The part that I do not get is why you would want to limit yourself only to ammo that the military uses.  Commercial ammunition is not limited by a myriad of international conventions and offers much better lethality and wounding potential because it can use more sophisticated bullets.

That is where 5.45x39 ammo falls flat: commercial ammo in this caliber is not any better (and often worse) than the military versions.

Conversely, commercial 5.56x45 (223Rem) ammunition is highly developed and offers much better performance.  

With 7.62x39, it is not quite as simple.  It is an appreciably more powerful round and there some commercial ammunition available that is pretty decent: Vmaxes and various softpoint bulets are available.  Barrier penetration is MUCH better than both 5.56 and 5.45 rounds. 

The downside is that if you have to lug all that ammo on your person, then 5.56x45 is certainly a better choice.

In case you are wondering whether I practice what I preach, I have two rifles chambered for 5.56x45 and three rifles chambered for 7.62x39.

As far as the sights go, stock AK sights are nothing to write home about, but they work.  As you get older though (I am told), they get even less optimal.  There are some excellent upgrades available.  For example, you can get a rear ghost ring from either Mojo Sights of Krebs custom. Both work great.  XS makes a tritium front sight that works great as well.  If you prefer a simple front post, KNS makes a variety of them with different widths.  Personally, aside from tweaking the iron sights, I decided to put an UltiMak rail on top of the handguard and use a red dot sight on it.  If push comes to shove, I can always yank it off and use iron sights.

Bottom line, there are enough aftermarket parts to tweak an AK into a configuration that works for you.

Still, for ultimate customizability, it is impossible to beat an AR.  However, a properly tweaked AR will cost you quite a bit more than an AK.

It will be more accurate and it will definitely look sexier.  However, for SHTF purposes, I am not sure I care.

Regardless of which system you choose, pick something that is rugged, durable and fairly light.  Put together a spare parts kit.  Stock up on ammo.  Fire some ammo from every batch you have stockpiled.  You'd be amazed at some crap I have seen bulk ammo manufacturers let through.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2010 at 06:22
billyburl2 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2009
Location: Cottonwood, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 3874
For me its all about the AR. The m-16a2 I carried in the Marines never had a problem, unless the rounds where wet. And I think I ran across 5-6 bad magazines while I was in. Is it the best weapon on the planet? No. But I, personally cannot get my mind wrapped around the idea of owning a weapon ( the AK) designed to kill Americans.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2010 at 07:30
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 28758
Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

For me its all about the AR. The m-16a2 I carried in the Marines never had a problem, unless the rounds where wet. And I think I ran across 5-6 bad magazines while I was in. Is it the best weapon on the planet? No. But I, personally cannot get my mind wrapped around the idea of owning a weapon ( the AK) designed to kill Americans.
 
 
 
EDIT b/c my comment was taken the wrong way.


Edited by SVT_Tactical - December/23/2010 at 09:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2010 at 07:36
shooter07 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
Shooting Sprout

Joined: June/12/2010
Location: PA
Status: Offline
Points: 4843
+100 BB and G. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2010 at 08:42
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Scope Swapper

Joined: October/17/2009
Location: STATESIDE
Status: Offline
Points: 2455

Lets try to get off that track and back on topic...

 
Wondering what makes it combat ineffective or not as GREAT as the AR...


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - December/23/2010 at 08:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2010 at 08:47
shooter07 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
Shooting Sprout

Joined: June/12/2010
Location: PA
Status: Offline
Points: 4843
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Lets try to get off that track and back on topic...

 
Wondering what makes it combat ineffective or not as GREAT as the AR...


I put my answer above, and Ilya also had a nice writeup. In this day in age, the AR has surpassed the AK in many areas as i outlined above.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2010 at 08:57
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Scope Swapper

Joined: October/17/2009
Location: STATESIDE
Status: Offline
Points: 2455
Ilya- as always is not just limited to an optics Lord...
 
What spare parts for the AK???  How about an extra complete rifle for $350 bones.
 
Where is DAN the MAN (besides hunting) on this one.  Please KB I really am interested to hear you Chime in.


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - December/23/2010 at 08:58
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  1 2>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "SHTF AK vs. AR and why???"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
SHTF Situation Scope Question DL32 Tactical Scopes 10
Kreb's AK-15 cheaptrick Firearms 1
After years, I figured out why bases get loose Clark Rings and bases 6
Why is swfa closing out sig k2000 ba_50 Laser Rangefinders 12
AK-47 Help....The right one to buy JLud Firearms 14
Scope Mount for Milled AK-47 SnoEngr Rifle Scopes 2 4/10/2005 1:58:51 PM
AK 47 w/ side mounted base Urimaginaryfrnd Tactical Scopes 4 2/16/2006 4:14:57 PM
Scoping an AK gtsteve03 Rifle Scopes 4 10/28/2006 12:25:04 AM
Saiga AK 47 Dolphin Firearms 10 4/23/2007 2:53:39 PM
AK-47 optics? glockman55 Tactical Scopes 31


This page was generated in 0.547 seconds.