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Should The Doping Baseball Players.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:13
I just do not see how a vitamin can be compared to a steroid. I have used performance enhancers in the past like Creatine, Nitrous Oxide and various energy supplements but in no way I would say the results are as great as people I have seen first hand using steroids. What they were like before steroid use and after steroid use was two different players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:15
You are generally correct on that, but it is because they are left to their own devices... IF the regualtion were there it would be different.  Banning generally does no good other than to create new crime bases.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:18
I'll agree with you on that but the only part I am disagreeing with is that you can compare steroids with vitamins and food.....Steroids are a way stronger enhancer and vitamins and food alone cannot give the results steroids give.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:23
Sometimes it's good to use an absurd analogy to provide clarity to a dilemma.  I'm sure Major League Baseball has no explicitly stated rule against pedophilia, yet it's obviously against the law.  Let's say half the players were routinely sodomizing children and the owners were encouraging this behavior.  Regardless of athletic accomplishments on the field of play, should athletes committing such horrendous acts be honored with the Hall of Fame at the end of their careers?  Should owners and managers who knowingly participate in the crime retain their jobs?  Of course not... or at least I don't think so! 
 
But that's a totally absurd analogy, you say...and you're right.  However, by agreeing with the premise given, you are thereby agreeing that there are at least some acts an athlete could commit that makes them unworthy of being honored, independent of their athletic achievements, it's just a matter of where you draw the line.  Obviously, steroid use is nowhere in the same universe as pedophilia in terms of seriousness.  Both are illegal acts, though, and at what point does violating society's laws rise to the level of making someone unworthy of honor?  At some point, the league has to draw the line and say that certain activities damage the image and integrity of the sport.  Steroid use undeniably provides physical advantages to athletes that they cannot achieve by hard work and good nutrition alone.  Children look up to star athletes, so they are role models, whether or not they chose to be put in that role, or whether or not they are well suited for it.  Is it good for the sport to send the message to children that it's o.k. for a star athlete to take whatever advantage is available to achieve, even if it involves doing something illegal?  What kind of message is that to promote and how does it translate to the lives of us ordinary folks who play by the rules?  Sports is entertainment.  In the grand scheme of things, it's really very unimportant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:27
Your right Rifledude it will not matter in the long run, but sports are an everyday event and a big part of american culture. Many children grow up idolizing sports athletes and when athletes are seen breaking the law what good is that for the child who is idolizing these sports figures? I think that is more important than the hall of fame
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucytuma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:32

You can't use a corked bat or vasaline the ball, but go ahead and use all the roids you want.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:42
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

 Steriods, properly administered, can assist them with the healing processes and does increase strength.... It is NO different than any other performance enhancing activity or substance they already perform or take...  Team doctors inject all sorts of pain killers, anti-inflammatories, etc and no one says "oh, you can't do that".  It is hypocrisy in its truest form.  
 
Wrong.  There is a HUGE difference, and the issue has nothing to do with effectiveness or applicability to physical performance.  One is illegal, the others aren't.  PERIOD.  When our laws state that steroid use isn't illegal anymore, then I will totally agree with you.  You are arguing from the standpoint of whether or not steroids have a legitimate benefit or purpose comparable to other medicines, pain killers and supplements and whether or not they can be used without negative health consequences.  That isn't the point.  It's illegal.  As long as it's illegal, whether the law is correct in making it illegal or not, by using it and benefitting from its advantages, it's providing an unfair advantage to the athletes who use it vs. athletes who abide by the laws.  It also sends a terrible message to young people that cheating and breaking the law is o.k. if doing so will help you to achieve more than you would otherwise.  Professional sports leagues don't want to project that message.  It's really that simple.


Edited by RifleDude - February/12/2009 at 19:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:44
Originally posted by Monster Monster wrote:

I'll agree with you on that but the only part I am disagreeing with is that you can compare steroids with vitamins and food.....Steroids are a way stronger enhancer and vitamins and food alone cannot give the results steroids give.
That's the point.  While food, vitamins, painkillers, etc are performance enhancers, they are weak compared to steroids, which are merely synthesized hormones ordinarily produced by the body and ingested or injected in larger amounts than the body ordinarily produces.  The point is, all those things STILL enhance performance.  It's kind of like getting someone "a little bit pregnant".  
IF steroids were adequately regulated, the downside, which can be TERRIBLE, would be nearly eliminated. Not ever completely, there are always abusers, and especially with something that makes you bigger, stronger, faster, better than you were before.  But take the mystery and the intrigue away and allow use under a physician's care and you would see a quantum change in sports.  And make it a life imprisonment offense for allowing someone under, say 21, to use steroids.  
I engaged this because I find the arguments so inconsistent, both ways. I don't want indiscriminate use of steroids, but I do want them legal.  They are not "bad" in and of themselves.  Addiction, if there is a true steroid addiction, comes from abuse, not like cocaine, crack cocaine, heroin, which can more often than not be addictive at the first use.  There are studies that show a large percentage of alcoholics are formed at the first drink.  Steroids, generally, require heavy abuse to form an addiction and it is at least as much mental as physical.  
I don't take steroids, have not, because they are illegal. Would I if they were not... IN A SECOND.  I have witnessed the results firsthand, and they are truly impressive.  I know long term steroid users who are not addicted, are fully functional, have wonderful lives and have magnificent musculature, easily, not having to perform half the time in the gym that I do, and get better results.  I think it sucks that a bunch of jealous, fat, limp, sedentary old men prevent me from being the best I can be.  


Edited by Kickboxer - February/12/2009 at 19:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucytuma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:52

To me steroid use is a very liberal point of view, "wanting something for nothing".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:55
Originally posted by lucytuma lucytuma wrote:

You can't use a corked bat or vasaline the ball, but go ahead and use all the roids you want.



Some of the spit ball pitchers, corked bat and amphetamines users (who got caught) are in "the hall".





Edited by mike650 - February/14/2009 at 22:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 19:59
It is certainly not wanting something for nothing.  You STILL have to work out, recovery time is the HUGE advantage.  Decreases it significantly.  Steroids are used to improve recovery when people have knee, ankle, elbow and wrist problems.  Is that getting something for nothing?  We need to change our whole medical system then.  
I do not begrude someone that they can spend less time and get better results using steroids.  
Actually, a VERY liberal attitude is that there should be equal outcomes to the lowest common denominator.  That is what liberals preach all the time, and one of the reasons steroids are illegal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:04

The water is being muddied by "what if" questions and arguments about what should be.  Let's deal with what is.  The only questions that need to be asked are:

1.  Is it illegal?

2.  Does it provide an advantage that other competitors who choose to obey the law don't have?

3.  Is gaining an unfair advantage over others who play by the rules the definition of cheating?
 
4.  Is cheating in any form bad for the integrity of sports?
 
5.  Is the implied lesson being reinforced that breaking the law pays off in the long run a bad thing?
 
The answer to all the above is yes.  Therefore, it seems simple to me that those who ignore right and wrong are undeserving of honor.
 
The only exception I see to this is if the substance in question was legal at the time of use, by both the league's and society's laws, and when it later became illegal, the athlete immediately ceased using it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:04
Taking steroids will instantly make you huge and land in the higher tier of what ever sport you choose. Weight Lifter


Just look what they did to Jerry.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:07
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Taking steroids will instantly make you huge and land in the higher tier of what ever sport you choose. Weight Lifter


Just look what they did to Jerry.




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UUUUUhhhh, I might change my mind...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:11
Seriously though, yes using steroids is wrong. Picking out only a handful of players to discipline is wrong too. Like I said before there's hundreds of players involved in MLB steroid scandal. We're only hearing about a small few, the higher tier players, the latest being Alex Rodriguez. The Players Union is also doing a fine job of hiding the facts along with everyone else.

Good points everyone!!


Edited by mike650 - February/14/2009 at 22:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:11
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

The water is being muddied by "what if" questions and arguments about what should be.  Let's deal with what is.  The only questions that need to be asked are:

1.  Is it illegal?

2.  Does it provide an advantage that other competitors who choose to obey the law don't have?

3.  Is gaining an unfair advantage over others who play by the rules the definition of cheating?
 
4.  Is cheating in any form bad for the integrity of sports?
 
5.  Is the implied lesson being reinforced that breaking the law pays off in the long run a bad thing?
 
The answer to all the above is yes.  Therefore, it seems simple to me that those who ignore right and wrong are undeserving of honor.
 
The only exception I see to this is if the substance in question was legal at the time of use, by both the league's and society's laws, and when it later became illegal, the athlete immediately ceased using it.

I go back to, at your insistence, to 1) alcohol, 2) marijuana.
Society turns a blind eye on those and attaches little to no stigma to their use.  A president was just elected, regardless of whether you voted for him or not, who is an admitted marijuana and cocaine user.  Does that send a wrong message to our youth????
I am not saying two wrongs make a right, but this whole steroids in sports thing is a distraction.


Edited by Kickboxer - February/12/2009 at 20:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:37
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I go back to, at your insistance, to 1) alcohol, 2) marijuana.
Society turns a blind eye on those and attaches little to no stigma to their use.  A president was just elected, regardless of whether you voted for him or not, who is an admitted marijuana and cocaine user.  Does that send a wrong message to our youth????
I am not saying two wrongs make a right, but this whole steroids in sports thing is a distraction.
 
Yes, it does send a terrible message to our youth, and in my view, it should disqualify him as president in the same way it would disqualify him for military command, since I think the commander in chief should be held to the same standard as anyone else in the military.  However, those aren't the rules, so it's a moot point. 
 
Alcohol is legal.  Marijuana is not.  I personally don't think marijuana should be illegal, but I don't get to make the rules.
 
Your argument isn't congruent, though.  We aren't talking about merely breaking the law, but whether the act of breaking the law also provides an advantage that other competitors in the same profession who abide by the law don't have.  The illegal substance in question has a direct correlation to athletic performance.  As long as the athlete used this substance, there is no way to know whether that athlete would have had the same achievements had they not done so.  Therein lies the central point -- it destroys the credibility of the game and taints the accomplishments as long as everyone isn't playing by the same rules.  I agree that the steroids in sports issue isn't worth congressional hearings, but the question is simply one of whether or not an athlete who admittedly cheated is worthy of being honored by Hall of Fame induction.  That question doesn't have national security implications, but it does bring into question whether athletic accomplishments are genuinely earned, which is a vitally important consideration to make when doling out Hall of Fame inductions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:44
But, Pete Rose didn't use steroids...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:47
And I bet he hates binoculars too!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 20:50
That was a flippant remark, kind of joking.
 However, there are, as stated previously, a number of known, admitted drug users who are in the hall.  I don't think there is a separative factor because one used "performance enhancing" drugs vs just plain ole drugs.  "our hypocrisy knows no bounds"...
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