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Should The Doping Baseball Players.....

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Should The Doping Baseball Players Be Considered For The Hall Of Fame?
 
Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, etc.
 
They've got talent and the majority of the players were juicing.  And during this steroid era it was not against major league baseball rules (even though it was illegal).
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No NoNO!
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Vitamins are performance enhancing... should they be excluded?
FOOD is performance enhancing... should players be starved?
Organized work out is performance enhancing... should they have to play without regular workouts?
How about PAIN RELIEVERS?   Pain relievers enhance performance considerably...take those away?  
Steriods provide little to nothing for improved capability, so raw athletic ability is not impacted, they increase strength and improve healing time...dramatically.  With the price of tickets for sporting events, don't you want the absolute BEST performance these entertainers can provide?  
I don't care if they take steroids.  Taken properly, under the supervision of a qualified physician, steriods are no more dangerous than most of the "allowed" medicines players of all sports take. Can steroids hurt someone, absolutely.  Taken to extremes, almost everything, in fact I can't think of anything that isn't, is damaging.   And therein lies the problem.  Since athletes cannot legally take them, they take them without supervision using the old tired adage "if a little is good, a LOT must be VERY GOOD".  They are not all the sharpest tacks in the box.  
Don't think that "back in the day" players didn't want them or take what was available.  Very few would or did resist the temptation and the honest ones say "yea, if I could have gotten them I would have taken them". I applaud those that did not, those that gave their heart and soul to "the game" (whatever game it was) without the benefits of steriods.  They are definitely superior athletes.  Those who fell into steriod use are just a little better than average athletes whom WE demanded superiority from.  
They are only human, folks.  You turn them into gods and expect them to perform like gods and then demean them when they do what you asked...whatever it takes to be a godlike player. 
They did the best they could...
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Steroids can't help you SEE a 97 mph fastball nor react to it or accurately throw one over the plate.  Does it tarnish their good names in the presence of Ty Cobb or Ruth? Maybe. But lets judge them by their peers. Shall we?  Then what do you say?



edited for ED!!!


Edited by Steelbenz - February/12/2009 at 17:46
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Hmmmm That's a good question to which there is no simple answer.
To sum up my own thoughts on the matter. They should be held to the same standard as anyone else. There are several instances where what they did was in fact illegal. No different than Rose betting on a game that he had an immediate impact on. Different cup of tea, but in the same vain it was wrong. So many doing this to perform, when so many hall of famers were drunkards and carousers, hardly performance enhancing, yet they set performance standards, how great could those guys have been if they used the technology available today? Entirely too many things that need to be sorted through, and I have far greater issues to tackle. So for the sake of saving time. I just say NO.
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Could you imagine if Babe Ruth wasn't a cigar smoking, whiskey drinking, womanizing, chowder hound?  and had Roids? OK, he probably did have roids but I mean Steroids!!!  LOL  
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I'm not a baseball fan, so I'll not leave an opinion, what?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 18:08
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Big fan of baseball..... Not at all most of the players.
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I can not agree with you Kickboxer. Steriods are doing nothing good for the game of baseball. It is putting those who are not taking steroids at a disadvantage because if they don't take steroids they are at a physical disadvantage to provide the stats that the players on steroids are producing. I will agree that some level of athletic ability is needed but steroids give the player extra strength, durability, and endurance.  A vitamin is a whole different type of enhancer. You find vitamins in food and if you eat properly you will retain the amount of vitamins that is necessary to keep a healthy body. There are no steroids found in food. Weight lifting is performance enhancing but it does not use chemicals to do the enhancing, just hard work. Athletes are in no way taking the steroids without supervision. A lot of players are getting the juice from their trainers and are under a lot of supervision. Players in the minor leagues might be taking them without perfessional help but not the pros. The pros are getting the best of the best type of steroid. The pros can not use the fans as a reason to take the steroids because fans have been very demanding of players for centuries.
     As far as the question whether or not a player that has confessed or convicted on using steroids should be allowed in the hall is a tough question. Because of the era that baseball is in I think they have to be let in because not everyone who was on steroids has confessed. It just sucks for those who have not been on steroids because the players on steroids are putting up numbers that are really hard to achieve by even a talkented MLB player. Steroids give the player the advantage of being able to play at a very high level on a daily basis. The baseball season is a long season and injuries and stamina are a big part of it. So this era of baseball is a hard one to judge. I  do know that steroids need to be taken out of baseball because as long as it is in the pros the players under them (AAA, AA, etc.) are going to be pressured into taking them just to compete.
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

Hmmmm That's a good question to which there is no simple answer.
To sum up my own thoughts on the matter. They should be held to the same standard as anyone else. There are several instances where what they did was in fact illegal. No different than Rose betting on a game that he had an immediate impact on. Different cup of tea, but in the same vain it was wrong. So many doing this to perform, when so many hall of famers were drunkards and carousers, hardly performance enhancing, yet they set performance standards, how great could those guys have been if they used the technology available today? Entirely too many things that need to be sorted through, and I have far greater issues to tackle. So for the sake of saving time. I just say NO.
Rose always bet to WIN.  If he bet against his team, different story, but he always bet on his team to win.  
If the president of the United States can make the claim that his job performance is all that counts and his personal life is "his" and "cheating" doesn't matter AND a majority of the U.S population agrees, HOW IN HELL can anyone say what Pete Rose did should keep him out of the Hall of Fame?  He is Mr. Baseball STILL and is in my Hall of Fame.  
I agree that there are legal implications for steroid use, but how many pot smokers out there are screaming for players' heads because they use steroids???  
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

Hmmmm That's a good question to which there is no simple answer.
To sum up my own thoughts on the matter. They should be held to the same standard as anyone else. There are several instances where what they did was in fact illegal. No different than Rose betting on a game that he had an immediate impact on. Different cup of tea, but in the same vain it was wrong. So many doing this to perform, when so many hall of famers were drunkards and carousers, hardly performance enhancing, yet they set performance standards, how great could those guys have been if they used the technology available today? Entirely too many things that need to be sorted through, and I have far greater issues to tackle. So for the sake of saving time. I just say NO.
Rose always bet to WIN.  If he bet against his team, different story, but he always bet on his team to win.  
If the president of the United States can make the claim that his job performance is all that counts and his personal life is "his" and "cheating" doesn't matter AND a majority of the U.S population agrees, HOW IN HELL can anyone say what Pete Rose did should keep him out of the Hall of Fame?  He is Mr. Baseball STILL and is in my Hall of Fame.  
I agree that there are legal implications for steroid use, but how many pot smokers out there are screaming for players' heads because they use steroids???  


I agree with you Kickboxer on the Rose subject. I believe he deserves a nod for the hall of fame no matter what type of betting he was involved in. But like you said unless he was betting against his team. But his statistics show he should have been in the hall a long time ago.
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Vitamins are performance enhancing... should they be excluded?
FOOD is performance enhancing... should players be starved?
Organized work out is performance enhancing... should they have to play without regular workouts?
How about PAIN RELIEVERS?   Pain relievers enhance performance considerably...take those away?  
Steriods provide little to nothing for improved capability, so raw athletic ability is not impacted, they increase strength and improve healing time...dramatically.  With the price of tickets for sporting events, don't you want the absolute BEST performance these entertainers can provide?  
I don't care if they take steroids.  Taken properly, under the supervision of a qualified physician, steriods are no more dangerous than most of the "allowed" medicines players of all sports take. Can steroids hurt someone, absolutely.  Taken to extremes, almost everything, in fact I can't think of anything that isn't, is damaging.   And therein lies the problem.  Since athletes cannot legally take them, they take them without supervision using the old tired adage "if a little is good, a LOT must be VERY GOOD".  They are not all the sharpest tacks in the box.  
Don't think that "back in the day" players didn't want them or take what was available.  Very few would or did resist the temptation and the honest ones say "yea, if I could have gotten them I would have taken them". I applaud those that did not, those that gave their heart and soul to "the game" (whatever game it was) without the benefits of steriods.  They are definitely superior athletes.  Those who fell into steriod use are just a little better than average athletes whom WE demanded superiority from.  
They are only human, folks.  You turn them into gods and expect them to perform like gods and then demean them when they do what you asked...whatever it takes to be a godlike player. 
They did the best they could...


Thunbs Up

Yes, they should be allowed in "the hall".....

or ban everyone's records during "steroid era". At the time it wasn't against the rules and hundreds of players, fair to great, were doing 'em. Draw a line in the sand and move on.



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       Stiring The Pot      
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Well considering that that particular president wasn't one that I willingly supported, That argument holds no water. As far as the Pot smoking, when someone nominates me for the hall of fame, I will admittedly decline. Truth be told, the game suffers, because there are several players that won't do the steroids, and will be missed because of it they may never see the big leagues. they may never see the hall of fame, because they won't dope. Fair? Not in this lifetime. You can hold to your own opinion, you will however not sway mine.
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I agree cyborg......

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I somewhat agree with you, Dan... but there's one little troublesome fact that's inescapable -- steroids are illegal.  Even if they weren't illegal by the sanctioning body of the sport, they are illegal by the laws of the land, which trumps the rules of the sport.  The league doesn't have explicitly stated rules against many things that are illegal that, if violated, would remove an athlete from his/her profession.  We could argue all day long about whether or not steroids should be illegal, and I agree with your logic, by the way...but the facts are, they are. 

Just as with many illegal activities, if a player knowingly decides to participate in the banned activity, they make themselves ineligible for Hall of Fame honors.  That's the risk they know they are taking beforehand.  If we use the same analogy to most other professions, working for most companies large and small, known illegal drug use would probably get us fired from our jobs.  At least that's the way it is where I work, and I know it would be where you work.  Why should sports be different just because they are providing entertainment?
 
I ain't buying the "they are victims of our expectations" thing.  They are BLESSED beyond belief to be able to do what they truly enjoy and making far more money in one year than most of us will ever see in a lifetime from playing a game!  That's great, more power to them, but I don't pity them at all.  Getting to the level of professional sports is difficult, as it should be.  That level of athletic prowess should be something rare and special.  If there are shortcuts to achieving it, it makes the achievement less rare and special.  If the playing field is even for all people who endeavor to become professional athletes, it wouldn't matter what is banned or allowed, everyone will be bound by the same rules and the better athletes will always succeed.  The same disadvantages would exist for all, making them no longer disadvantages.  But, when the playing field isn't equal, how is it fair to the gifted, principled athletes who abide by the laws of the land even if it means being at a decided disadvantage to have to compete against those who are willing to use illegal means to succeed?  Right or wrong, as long as something is illegal, in a civilized society, people of privilege shouldn't be rewarded for flaunting the same laws the rest of us would pay a heavy penalty for violating.
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Well said Rifle Dude......I know a friend who is in the minors, just in rookie ball. He was California State Junior college player of the year. He got to minors and said there was a big wake up call as to the competition level from JC ball to rookie ball. The higher you go in anything the more competition you will face, that is just a rule of life. But when you take the competition and add an illegal substance you make the odds of a decent player (like my friend) down on his odds of making it to the pros. 
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Maybe they should ban the owners and managers who obviously knew what was going on.
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I doubt they could prove who knew what. Those owners are handing out the checks to these players and the manager is not going to call out a player that is performing because he does not want the owner to come down on him.
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Originally posted by Monster Monster wrote:

I can not agree with you Kickboxer. Steriods are doing nothing good for the game of baseball. It is putting those who are not taking steroids at a disadvantage because if they don't take steroids they are at a physical disadvantage to provide the stats that the players on steroids are producing. I will agree that some level of athletic ability is needed but steroids give the player extra strength, durability, and endurance.  A vitamin is a whole different type of enhancer. You find vitamins in food and if you eat properly you will retain the amount of vitamins that is necessary to keep a healthy body. There are no steroids found in food. Weight lifting is performance enhancing but it does not use chemicals to do the enhancing, just hard work. Athletes are in no way taking the steroids without supervision. A lot of players are getting the juice from their trainers and are under a lot of supervision. Players in the minor leagues might be taking them without perfessional help but not the pros. The pros are getting the best of the best type of steroid. The pros can not use the fans as a reason to take the steroids because fans have been very demanding of players for centuries.
     As far as the question whether or not a player that has confessed or convicted on using steroids should be allowed in the hall is a tough question. Because of the era that baseball is in I think they have to be let in because not everyone who was on steroids has confessed. It just sucks for those who have not been on steroids because the players on steroids are putting up numbers that are really hard to achieve by even a talkented MLB player. Steroids give the player the advantage of being able to play at a very high level on a daily basis. The baseball season is a long season and injuries and stamina are a big part of it. So this era of baseball is a hard one to judge. I  do know that steroids need to be taken out of baseball because as long as it is in the pros the players under them (AAA, AA, etc.) are going to be pressured into taking them just to compete.
Actually you are incorrect on many of your points.  As an example, vitamins cause increased production of a number of hormones which directly contribute to performance. Weight lifting does the same thing.  And, the "pros" have always found a way to try to improve performance in order to meet fans' demands, often resorting to drugs of different types.  Before steroids became popular one of the most popular was cocaine...it really IS a performance enhancing drug.Steroids are merely a synthesization of naturally occuring hormones.  Steroids amplify the effects of those other performance enhancers, vitamins, workouts, etc. 
I have been a martial artist for over thirty years, have trained world, international, and state champion kickboxers, have consorted with professional football players on a daily basis and actually have the credentials to discuss use or nonuse of "performance enhancing" drugs.  None of my fighters ever used drugs, performance enhancing or otherwise, I dropped any who did.  I once cancelled a title fight because I caught my fighter drinking beer a week before the fight.  The only fighter I ever trained that I know of using drugs (I found out after the fight he had taken speed before the fight) lost his title because of it and I had him banned from fighting for a year.  However, fighters are under a different type of pressure than the team sport players.  If a fighter gets injured, the fight can almost always be delayed giving him time to recover, training is designed to get him in top shape for an event that will occur only several times a year.  Baseball, football, basketball players don't have that luxury... the game is on Sunday (or whatever day) whether they are healed or not... and oh by the way, they are still expected to show up and perform.  Steriods, properly administered, can assist them with the healing processes and does increase strength.  For those who choose not to use them, I have GREAT admiration.  I just don't think those that do should be penalized.  It is NO different than any other performance enhancing activity or substance they already perform or take, just needs better regulation... and it works better.  Team doctors inject all sorts of pain killers, anti-inflammatories, etc and no one says "oh, you can't do that".  It is hypocrisy in its truest form.  No matter what steroids or other performance enhancements are induced, body types, mental types/activities, etc will still separate out "natural" physical abilities as superior.  Steroids help those who could not otherwise compete "stay in the game" (and making it tougher on those who don't use them, but superior ability makes it tougher on those who don't have it).  They also help the naturally superior stay in the game when injuries would cause otherwise.  

Kids using steroids is wrong.  Should not happen.  Alcohol is a good example of regulation of a drug that kids want to use very much, but are prevented, to the extent possible, until they reach the 'age of reason'.  Know anyone underage who ever drank alcohol?  Want to try to convince me THAT is OK?  Want to try to convince me steriods are worse for you than alcohol?  I've been a bartender as well and am well qualified to speak on that subject.  Why not put the same controls on steriods as are placed on alcohol, but make the penalties for allowing a child to use steroids so tough that no one wants to take the risk.  Penalize the child, but REALLY penalize the supplier.  Kids go to great lengths to prove they can't be prevented from doing anything and if something exists and is used by ANYONE, a kid will find a way to get it.  That should not make it taboo for an adult with full reasoning to make a choice on how he wants to "enhance" his body. IF bionics were to the level of the TV shows, I would start trading in limbs tomorrow.  There are uses for steroids...in sports.  If the laws were changed to allow proper experimentation and administration, those "gods" of football, baseball, basketball could be a lot closer.  
You can have your opinions, mine are based on fact, first hand experience.  
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I just do not see how a vitamin can be compared to a steroid. I have used performance enhancers in the past like Creatine, Nitrous Oxide and various energy supplements but in no way I would say the results are as great as people I have seen first hand using steroids. What they were like before steroid use and after steroid use was two different players. 
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You are generally correct on that, but it is because they are left to their own devices... IF the regualtion were there it would be different.  Banning generally does no good other than to create new crime bases.  
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I'll agree with you on that but the only part I am disagreeing with is that you can compare steroids with vitamins and food.....Steroids are a way stronger enhancer and vitamins and food alone cannot give the results steroids give.
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Sometimes it's good to use an absurd analogy to provide clarity to a dilemma.  I'm sure Major League Baseball has no explicitly stated rule against pedophilia, yet it's obviously against the law.  Let's say half the players were routinely sodomizing children and the owners were encouraging this behavior.  Regardless of athletic accomplishments on the field of play, should athletes committing such horrendous acts be honored with the Hall of Fame at the end of their careers?  Should owners and managers who knowingly participate in the crime retain their jobs?  Of course not... or at least I don't think so! 
 
But that's a totally absurd analogy, you say...and you're right.  However, by agreeing with the premise given, you are thereby agreeing that there are at least some acts an athlete could commit that makes them unworthy of being honored, independent of their athletic achievements, it's just a matter of where you draw the line.  Obviously, steroid use is nowhere in the same universe as pedophilia in terms of seriousness.  Both are illegal acts, though, and at what point does violating society's laws rise to the level of making someone unworthy of honor?  At some point, the league has to draw the line and say that certain activities damage the image and integrity of the sport.  Steroid use undeniably provides physical advantages to athletes that they cannot achieve by hard work and good nutrition alone.  Children look up to star athletes, so they are role models, whether or not they chose to be put in that role, or whether or not they are well suited for it.  Is it good for the sport to send the message to children that it's o.k. for a star athlete to take whatever advantage is available to achieve, even if it involves doing something illegal?  What kind of message is that to promote and how does it translate to the lives of us ordinary folks who play by the rules?  Sports is entertainment.  In the grand scheme of things, it's really very unimportant.
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Your right Rifledude it will not matter in the long run, but sports are an everyday event and a big part of american culture. Many children grow up idolizing sports athletes and when athletes are seen breaking the law what good is that for the child who is idolizing these sports figures? I think that is more important than the hall of fame
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