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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 13:14
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Seems to be some incredible mis-information on shot-out, burn-out, eroded barrels and barrel throats. Some believe it happens, but not enough to affect hunting accuracy or use, some believe it doens't occur due to todays guns material, some are well aware of it etc etc.

So for fun (isn't that what its all about) I orderd a 6.5-284 from Cooper should be here toward the end of the week, a caliber noted for its short barrel life. Now image a cartridge that shoots about 15% more powder and about .1 small bore--- the 257 weatherby. Even with stainless barrels, 800 rds is considerd the bench turning point for this caliber. Please go to 6mmbr.com and read the info page on the 6.5-284 if you don't want to--don't make any stupid posts.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 15:27
crispycritter View Drop Down
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Are you going to slow fire,allowing the barrel to cool or get it hotter than blue blazes ?

 

My understanding is heat from alot of fast shooting increases the erosion factor.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 18:00
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Slow or fast certainly has an effect, however the approx. total rd. count is constant. Would you like to see it go in a day?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 20:44
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i think you should define what kind of accuracy you consider is shot out are we talking like the gun wont shoot 1/2 inch groups at a 100yds or are you talking 5 rounds and only 3 of them could hit a 4x8 sheet of plywood or are we talking it wont shoot 5 into a 6"x6" square. i'm thinking this may have something to do with why you and i dont see eye to eye on the whole issue.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2007 at 00:09
crispycritter View Drop Down
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Didn't realize that I was stepping into a deep pile of debate. My bad.  ----note to self - read all threads before posting ------
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2007 at 11:20
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Crispy-no please- continue your input. This forum is about the broadest range of shooters. Some sites are very specfic such as 6mmbr- which defines "shot -out"quite specifically- and others such as pyro who put a larger cone of fire on the group size.

pyro- I'm just to going perform the experiment and let the reader decide. The Cooper is here, have got everything but the dies. will send pics.

The controls I will impose are the following.

All reloading will be done on a Dillon progressive-If you can't do it on a Dillon I don't shoot it.

Brass will be Lapua, two lots 50 with outside neck turning and bumping the shoulder, 50 no neck turning.

Bullets will consist of match grade, sierra,berger, and hornady.

Targets pic will be given the OT every 100 rds. ( i got the gun for 1000 yd shooting-so the in between rounds will be used for this.

No groups will fired from a concrete bench set up at a range-all will be done prone at my range.

Powder will be R22 as was used by Cooper in their test group, charges will be thrown by volume and not weighed.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2007 at 11:37
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so are we suppose to tell you in our opinon as targets are posted when we would call the barrel "shot out" that sounds fair if thats what you were planning!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 12:17
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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yes, I plan to cut, the barrel back, and rechamber at the 800 mark regardless. Inbetweens the gun will be used for 1000 yd practice.

Why don't you give your version of shot out--approximation of course.

Perhaps someone else with practical accuracy, hopefully MacDonald with tactical, etc.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 12:47
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Dale, just out of curiosity, why wouldn't shooting be done from a bench?  If this is a test of accurate barrel life, wouldn't you want to remove as many variables as possible so that any variability seen in the results could be more directly attributed to the gun, not the shooter?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 13:15
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Thats why I'm not shooting of a pickup hood--just kidding. Accurate barrel life, which I'm sure is what pyrro is getting at is a relative term, while someone such 6mmbr. views it more in absolute terms (and the military). It would be impossible to remove all the variables to the point of making everyone happy. Prone is good compromise between concrete benchs and action shooters who use time pressure to measure accuracy.

Please-post your definition of accuracy and shot out--what variables you view as most important, and why.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 13:47
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Have to agree with Rifledude.  If the intent of the exercise is to detrmine at what point a barrel is "shot out", i.e. no longer meets some definable criteria, you need the most stable rest possible to remove the human component.  For this test a machine rest would be even better.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 18:14
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I'm a hunter, not a target shooter (although, that could change)  and shot-out to me means I can't put a group within the size of a Deer heart at 200 yds!  Not sure how to quantify that at 100 yds...... does that equate to 1 - 2 inches? 

 

I hope to get into praire dogs this spring....... I think my idea of shot-out might change at that point.

 

I would think you would want to shoot from a solid rest as well.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 20:15
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Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

I'm a hunter, not a target shooter (although, that could change)  and shot-out to me means I can't put a group within the size of a Deer heart at 200 yds!  Not sure how to quantify that at 100 yds...... does that equate to 1 - 2 inches? 

 

I hope to get into praire dogs this spring....... I think my idea of shot-out might change at that point.

 

I would think you would want to shoot from a solid rest as well.

 

i agree, either this needs some definement or the test would only be one man's opinion, shot out to dale probably isnt the same as shot out to me or rifledude

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 22:18
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So far two types of shooting have been described. Platform, (snipers, pds, prone, bench) and shoot and scoot (hunting, active pursuit of quarry, action shooting). Each of which has their own definitional need. The solid rest would use the gun lock up like a rail gun in bench, with the scope mts. silver soldered to the action, the mount would be about 2 ft. high so I could set in a chair and the trigger guard would be drilled for a camera release. This could describe something like the unlimited class. But would it help the scoot and shoot people who know that statistically that a "good" shot doens't require this?

 

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 04:00
crispycritter View Drop Down
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"Shot out" is gonna be hard to establish. As mentioned,a long distance target shooter and a 100yd. deer hunter are not going to have the same opinion.The hunter will think a barrel is still good to go while the target shooter is ready to chunk the barrel in the trash.

 

However, I think if you stay with the same load and shoot from the bench,you will be able to give an idea of IF,WHEN and HOW MUCH accuracy is affected and at what round count it happens. The reader can then determine at what point the barrel is "shot out" for their shooting needs.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 04:21
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Quote:

But would it help the scoot and shoot people who know that statistically that a "good" shot doens't require this?

 

 

 

 

Yes, I think it will since Rifle Ability and Shooter Ability are two different things. For example, if your test show that the barrel gives 6"-8" groups at 100yds. at XXX rounds, then the hunter knows not to attempt a 200yd shot. Even if the hunter is able to be accurate at 200yds, the rifle will not.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 12:12
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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 How about the case when the rifle is not accurate and the hunter can't shoot and he gets the deer. If you shoot 10 shoots 1 inch to the aim point 10 inch to the right statistically you have 100%. I can tell you from a lot of previous shooting that the groups will never reach 6-8" except under incredible circumstances. The group size will go from the factory 3 shot group which is about 7mm to 1" and 1 1/2". Even in match grade .233 varmiters as an example that I consider "shot out" at 6000 to 10000 rds, they make really good uppers for select fire guns until about 20000 until you get some amazing flyers. Even if the groups started at  2-3" this is considered to be miltary ok. The difference in each case is how many rds.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 13:18
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

 How about the case when the rifle is not accurate and the hunter can't shoot and he gets the deer. 

 

 

I'd have to call that a case of pure d luck. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 15:58
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pure luck (what ever that is) or not it is still part of the statistical process and must be considered. all things are possible some things are more probable.

take a look at the whackos in almost anything goes and add your own. After you read and hear enough of these types of things, it appears they happen more frequently than one would expect.



Edited by Dale Clifford
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 16:20
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Not sure how you would do this but if it's possible to determine what the nominal accuracy of a new barrel is after break in (e.g. shot scatter radius from point of aim equals .75" or 1.5 moa rifle fom the new barrel), then measure at what point it deviates from that nominal accuracy by some predetermined percent variance.  When it reaches this threshold it would be considered shot out.  The difficulty would be in coming up with this variance.

 

Hunting rifles may not have the same tight tolerances that a bench rest target rifle would have but that wouldn't matter here.  We would be judging the change in performance from each barrel so the variance between the two would not be the same.  Whethor or not the rifle was to be used for hunting Vs bench shooting this test would have to be done from the sturdiest rest possible.  We are not measuring the shooters performance. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 17:09
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Excellent points. I'm suprized someone hasn't been more vocal about the break in method, than the control of the shooting technique. This is usually the topic of all kinds of stuff.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 08:31
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Dale, for the type of rifle you're evaluating (accurate varmint rifle), the accuracy expectations are higher than a typical hunting rifle, so I'd say "shot out" would be when aggregate group sizes get about 25% larger than observed when new.  And, you’ll also need to test based on aggs, not individual groups, so you have more statistically valid data.

Also, with regards to the bench issue, the very best test you could devise to determine accurate barrel life would be using a rail gun while shooting indoors or in an area that also eliminates the effects of wind.  Since this probably isn't practical, anything that gets closer to this ideal will improve the validity of the test results.  So, I really do think using a bench would be better so that the variation in data will be most closely correlated to the barrel, not shooter.  Not doubting your shooting abilities, but the results will be more meaningful if we know all other variables besides the rifle were taken out of the test as much as possible.  Especially since the accuracy expectations for this class of rifle are more stringent, and therefore, the definition of "shot out" would probably involve a smaller cone of dispersion, more difficult to sort out from human factors.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 09:31
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Dale/Rifledude:  is there any info available from barrel makers/rifle manufacturers that would provide an idea of what criteria they use to accept or reject barrels?  If there is, not sure if criteria is decided upon by tolerance measurements on the barrel itself or through live fire testing.

 

Would be nice to get other members ideas on what MOA is acceptable on a big game centrefire rifle at 100 yds.  I'm leaning towards 4-5 MOA max from a sold rest.  Don't care if the rifle is brand new or 50 years old.  Expectations will play a part here, i.e.  if I'm only ever going to shoot to a max 100-150 yds from an old 45-70 this may be ok.  If a have a 338  it has to be better than this.

 

Thoughts?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 10:02
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Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Dale/Rifledude:  is there any info available from barrel makers/rifle manufacturers that would provide an idea of what criteria they use to accept or reject barrels?  If there is, not sure if criteria is decided upon by tolerance measurements on the barrel itself or through live fire testing.

 

I don't know what factory barrel makers use as acceptance criteria from a tolerance standpoint, but custom barrel makers consider a "match grade" barrel to be one with a measured land & groove TIR (total indicator reading) of 0.0001" to 0.0002" across the entire bore, measured with an air gage.  Good factory barrel TIR would be around 0.001", which is the number I believe Kimber advertises as their acceptable tolerance (not saying Kimber has the best factory barrel, just that I remember they published something to that effect).  Factory barrels aren't finish lapped like custom barrels, so they aren't capable of achieving the same tolerances as customs on a mass production basis.  Notice the number of "0"s after the decimal point in those tolerances; that wasn't a typo.  A true "match grade" custom barrel is made to 5-10 times tighter tolerance for bore uniformity than the factory barrel example used above, and that's considered a very good factory barrel.  Rifle manufacturers throw around the term "match grade" a little too liberally.



Edited by RifleDude
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 15:45
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Cooper lists this tube as match chamber, which is easy, but as Rifledude pointed out, I doubt if it is Match grade barrel. I'll try to find out from them, although both Kimber and Cooper advertise lapped at the factory. 4-5 moa is usually the accepted standard for an action shooter type rifle AR-10 or ar 15 from standing under time pressure. I would demand much more from a hunting rifle. 2-4 inch groups are usually a standard for standing metallic silhoutte.

Also I think there is an assumption about bench that should be looked at. How about the rests, would a loose Hoppes be ok, or do we need Sinclairs stuff and how about rear gun support 

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