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short barrel .30 cals....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 23:05
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I did just a test with Browning BARs in the four .30 cals. and those have 20" barrel.
I belive the manufacturers cheat us severely with the sales of a short barrel guns in "LOOOOONG barrel calibers"
 
I tested the following calibers and ONLY with factory loads.
I only used loads where the same bullet are loaded in all four calibers.
And there is a big reason to no use handloads in such a test, and that is the lack of a preassure gun. There is no reason to publish loads that maybe are far beyond all legal limits in CIP or SAAMI.
 
Calibers .308, .30-06, ..300 Win mag and .300 WSM.
The only caliber that had an existing rigth in this barrellength was .308 win.
 
180 Grain Norma Oryx factory loaded
30-06 2476fps
.308 2558 fps
.300 Win Mag 2591fps
300 WSM 2624fps
Yes read right, 308 have more velosity in this barrellengt than .30-06 and the 300s are just a minimal
 
The situation with the 150 grain load (factory loaded Ballistic tip was somewhat better but still about 250 to 300 fps to LOW)
308 2656fps
.30-06 2755fps
.300 Win MAG 2919fps
300 WSM 2950fps
 
.300 WIN mag in .20" barrel with those loads are terrible, recoil,muzzle flach, loudyness etc was severe and that to NO gain.
 
Opinions anybody?
 
Regards Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 23:13
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Some connected photos, small muzzleflach is .308, big is .300 Win mag.
Regards Technika
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 07:49
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not really an issue -- most seasoned reloaders already know this-- and anyone shooting T/c handguns. also anybody that plays with ar's knows the fall off between and m4 and 24 in varmit barrel. Also marketing claim such as ACOG combined with an M4 at 500 yds.

but yes , short barrel mags are a joke

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:07
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that pisses me off about gun makers today, why the hell should you only be able to buy guns with 22" barrels? i myself like at least a 24" and 26" is preferable
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:32
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I agree pyro.  Course, my 300 RUM came with a 28" if memory serves me.  Had to buy "specialty" rifle for lack of a better term to get 26" barrels for my .308s.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:38
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yeah and all they are doing is cheating us the consumer, they think they are doing us a favor by giving us fast handling lighter weight rifles, are you kidding me yeah there lighter and faster handling for sure but like tech said they are annoying to shoot, and you dont get full performance i dont care what any gun manufacturer says you shorten the barrel you lose performance and accuracy and increase muzzle flash recoil and more noise
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:55
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Personally would not have a 30 cal mag in a real short barrel but many guys I know have 308/30.06 in carbine length barrels just for the handling & weight when in brush areas - aware of the trade-off on velocity but (think it was estimated at about 30-40 fps/inch) but more than enough for any of the game we hunt.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:58
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i agree with you dogger, if its a 30-30 or a 308 i guess it wouldnt bee such a big deal but you start sawing off 300 winmag and 300wby and damn thats going to get not only annoyingly loud but the kick wouldnt be any fun either.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 10:36
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I know that a lot of people that are very interested know this.
But there is a lot of average hunters who don't know this and spend money on a magnumrifle and gains more than  short barrellife, low magkapacaty, expensive ammo and a massive recoil.
Look here at the forum and here is people who is planning to buy 300 WSM with 16,5" barrel, that is most likely almost as bad as a 300 WM with 20" Barrel.
 
Regards Technika
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:10
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this has been going since ackley started putting shoulders on straight cases- good luck\
as far as recoil is concerned-- it is substantially less because the mass is not accelerated to its fullest extent, the recoil is a function of the ejecta mass, which in the case of the mag would only be the additional wt. of the powder charge, approx. 30 grs. what is horrible and horrible are muzzle breaks on 18" 300 wm. and such. even a 308 in say a 16" barrel doesn't gain much over a 7.6x39 ak round. This has been known forever--- The 7.30 waters was adopted by the IMSHA group as a result of the blast from 308 in unlimited Wichitas and weatherbys. It is however interesting to see the top circle about every 10 years.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:13
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It is however interesting to see the top circle about every 10 years--something wrong with key board-- It is interesting to see the topic repeat itself etc.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:15
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but why are they constantly trying cut the barrel lengths. i can see where they may save some money, and for some people the shorter oal is nice but i dont like it
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:19
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the rule of thumb is -- if you need a shorter length barrel, go to the same cartridge in the next larger caliber and it will usually give you the ballistic performance your looking for. This works especially well in revolvers and pistols. The results are caused by the ability to use a much faster burning powder in a lower dose.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:21
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so i could get .280 performance by buying a shorter barreled 30-06 is what your telling me right dale?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:25
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basically yes, but this small of range isn't  marketable, and in your case -- remember that the reason for the shorter barrel is handling in deep (wood, thicket, timber) and doesn't necessarily apply to long distance shooting which is another thing. the increase in caliber usually results in an increase in mass, (bullet wt) in which case the shooter is trading momentum for kinetic energy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:32
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i can see making them for youth and women, but i dont wanna carry a rifle with a short stock, i had one in a 7-08 a few years ago. i bought it for my wife and i tried it out it killed a deer but it was so short it was annoying for me but that was a compact, i dont mind the 24" stuff because the stock is still a standard length.  and when it comes to performance i want the chambering i want, not one that would give close performance but in a shorter package. thats just me of course
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:48
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one can still get a good pull length in the caliber, the easiest solution above all is just load the same caliber down, in the shorter barrel with a faster powder, I use a 270 on an FN mauser for a scout rifle just for this reason  in ballistics about like a 708. When I built the gun the 708 wasn't around (that hurts)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 11:52
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what year was that?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 12:05
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Did I hear someone mention expansion ratio?
Big case/small caliber=long barrel
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 12:22
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yes, another advantage of loading down the larger case is --- lower pressure, which translates into less muzzle blast in the shorter barrel.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 12:28
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as long as you dont load it down to much, in those magnums thats a big deal
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 13:11
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mostly it is reduced mag powder loads or small amounts of slow burning powders, 4759 will shoot at any low level in a mag case. (as an example).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 13:14
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as an example I use .412 cast bullets and HS-6 in my 416 rem. alot, lots of fun out to a 100 yds, and cheap practice (say nothing of recoil reduction)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2007 at 13:16
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yeah i cant imagine shooting that with full strength loads very oftenCrutch
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2007 at 11:08
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I've had good success with the 308 at 20/22" barrel lengths, with pretty warm OCW loads it still tickles 2800fps and delivers superb accuracy. With our brush and regrowth jungles to hunt in it seems all long barrels do is inhibit handling when you do make contact. I would consider longer barrels with the larger powder charge magnums if they were in my arsenal. Accurate reloading did an interesting test where they kept cutting a 223 barrel shorter and shorter while recording the velocity changes. At some lengths there was little difference but at other points it was note worthy. It was not a consistent velocity loss as it got shorter.

   Focus

Edited by Focus - December/15/2007 at 11:10
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