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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2013 at 23:33
Brad4213 View Drop Down
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I have a Remington model 700 sps .300WM that i purchased a few years ago. I originally had a Leupold base and rings (the kind that you twist and lock in the front and have the windage screws in the back) holding a Burris fullfield II 3-9x40 and was averaging 1" groups at 100yds. I upgraded my scope, base, and rings last year to an EGW 20MOA base with burris extreme tactical rings with a Zeiss Conquest 4,5-14x50 scope. I also had a trigger job done and dropped my trigger pull from 7.6lbs down to 2.5lbs and had a muzzle break installed. Now to the question. When i took my gun out to sight it in at the range my groups were not as tight as i would like them to be at 100yds but they will do for hunting, my concern is that when i moved out to 200yds my groups went to hell (about 7-8") and were hitting 4-5" high this is using the same ammo that i have used in the gun the whole time ive owned it and have shot 6" groups at 400yds with. Im curious if the base caused the grouping to hit high and if i so should I buy a standard egw base or some other straight picatini rail. All of these shots were fired from a Caldwell Lead Sled to remove most of my human error. I am curious to any insight some of you veteran shooters may have on this. I drew tags again in Nevada and know that i can have some longer range shots present themselves and i know that 8" groups at 200yds are not going to be ethical. Any suggestions to help me out are greatly appreciated.  -Brad
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 06:27
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Are you shooting factory ammo? what gr bullets?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 16:28
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Yes factory ammo. I have shot remington corelokt 150gr & 180gr psp and Federal power shock(blue box) 180gr. I got better groups with the 180 gr ammo so usually stick with that. I have bought some HSM ammo 185 gr loaded with Berger VLD bullets that i have not tried yet seeing as how it was very expensive and did not want to waste money until i got an idea of what may be going on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 22:39
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While I really dont know what is going one with this the first thing I would change would be the Burris rings.  That is not based on any particular experience with that exact ring it is more based on my past overall experience with Burris where 9/10 of their products have failed me and the sole survivor a 1x scope is now discontinued.  Based solely on price I would pick up some Warne rings and try that change to see if it fixes the problem. If it does not I would take the rifle to a gunsmith and inquire about free floating and glass bedding the rifle and ask about trueing the action and see what he says.  Remmington guns can be made to shoot very well but some straight out of the factory do not do all they are capable of.  The other alternative is to trade the rifle for a Tikka and put Talley lightweight ringmounts on it they dont leave the factory unless they are under an inch.  Savage rifles also seem to shoot very well.  The Talley ringmounts eliminate having a  seperate base and ring so one less thing to go wrong.
 
Also not a bad idea to have someone else who is an experienced shooter shoot 3 or 4 rounds to see if it does the same for them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 23:00
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Since your rifle used to shoot pretty good with the same ammo I would look at what you changed. First I would check the base and rings to make sure they are torqued to the correct tightness. And did you use a torque wrench? If that is okay I would next switch back to the Burris scope that you had on it. I would also look at the crown to see if it has been damaged. Can you remove the muzzle brake? If so does that change anything?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 23:13
Brad4213 View Drop Down
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Thanks. I have shot sub moa groups with the rifle before, I've even clover leafed a time or two. I know the rifle and I  were  capable of it at one point Big Grin. I had a Game Reaper DNZ 1 piece mount for the previous Burris scope and it worked great for me. I have one holding a leupold on my wife's Rem700 in .270 and it is sub moa all day. I was just curious if the cant on the base could cause me to shoot high at 200 yds with a 100 yd Zero. I would love to switch the stock out with an HS precision or Bell and Carlson full bed stock but the cost of that isn't in my budget before hunting this year. I think i just couldn't leave well enough alone and am paying the price for it now. I always have the option of taking the .270 out for this years hunt if i cannot figure out the issue i am having now. I thought about purchasing some talley lw ring because of their praise on this forum but wasn't sure how they would do on my rifle or if the DNZ 1 piece would do just as well. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 23:20
Brad4213 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Since your rifle used to shoot pretty good with the same ammo I would look at what you changed. First I would check the base and rings to make sure they are torqued to the correct tightness. And did you use a torque wrench? If that is okay I would next switch back to the Burris scope that you had on it. I would also look at the crown to see if it has been damaged. Can you remove the muzzle brake? If so does that change anything?

The muzzlebreak that was installed is not removable. The barrel was removed and the break installed and then spun on a lathe down to the barrel diameter. My Uncle and his brother both had the same break installed on their rifles without issue. Ill look to see if i can see the crown with a flashlight but i believe it was not damaged in the process. I know the base has a gap between the reciever and bottom of the base but the sides mount flush. I do not have a torque wrench to torque to the "proper" specs. Basically just tighten it down snug then go about 1/4 turn past snug. I'm sure im going to end up either buying a new rifle for this scope or dumping more money into this current rifle and making it custom. Im just trying to avoid that before october. After that it is fair game.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2013 at 23:21
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I will try to get some pictures to show what i am talking about. should have them up tonight.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 00:14
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Originally posted by Brad4213 Brad4213 wrote:


 I was just curious if the cant on the base could cause me to shoot high at 200 yds with a 100 yd Zero.

 


No.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 00:28
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Originally posted by Brad4213 Brad4213 wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Since your rifle used to shoot pretty good with the same ammo I would look at what you changed. First I would check the base and rings to make sure they are torqued to the correct tightness. And did you use a torque wrench? If that is okay I would next switch back to the Burris scope that you had on it. I would also look at the crown to see if it has been damaged. Can you remove the muzzle brake? If so does that change anything?

I do not have a torque wrench to torque to the "proper" specs. Basically just tighten it down snug then go about 1/4 turn past snug. I'm sure im going to end up either buying a new rifle for this scope or dumping more money into this current rifle and making it custom. Im just trying to avoid that before october. After that it is fair game.


Get a torque wrench. The specs for tightening rings and bases are in in-lbs which is not very tight but may or may not be tighter than your guess at tightening them. It will cost you $50 which is a lot less than dumping more money into your current rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 00:33
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Here is a picture of the muzzle break itself. I looked inside and see no damage to the crown.
here is the picture of the gap i was referring to
here is a picture of the whole set up


Edited by Brad4213 - June/06/2013 at 00:40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 00:37
Brad4213 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

 
Get a torque wrench. The specs for tightening rings and bases are in in-lbs which is not very tight but may or may not be tighter than your guess at tightening them. It will cost you $50 which is a lot less than dumping more money into your current rifle.
 
Thank you, i will pick one up from Sportsman's Warehouse this week. Then got to find a good day to go shoot. Not any time this week. Its supposed to be up to 114 degrees this saturday. Not looking forward to that
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 20:29
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When you go from a flat  base to a Plus 20 MOA base the point of impact at 100 yds just went up 20 inches but windage would be the same.  Having said that any time you change any component ring base scope you will have to zero the rifle.   Here again if the scope does not have enough internal adjustment to zero with some adjustment left over you may not be able to use a Plus 20 MOA base or you may have to select a scope with more internal adjustment.  It is not good to have the elevation or windage screwed all the way to the far end of its range of adjustment all the time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2013 at 21:54
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So today i took the scope rings and base of to inspect potential issues when i noticed this gouge on the base where my ring had apparently worn it down. This next picture is of the bottom of the front ringNow seeing this it makes me feel that this is most likely the culprit to my problems so i went down to sportsmans warehouse and picked up some Talley LW rings And now here she sits waiting for a cooler weekend to go check results. Will keep you all posted on my findings. thank you all for your help and input.Howdy
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 06:10
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nice, now if this wasn't the fix... I would have the muzzle brake looked at. It can make rifles do strange things if not straight when installed or seated to the crown correctly.

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Originally posted by Brad4213 Brad4213 wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

 
Get a torque wrench. The specs for tightening rings and bases are in in-lbs which is not very tight but may or may not be tighter than your guess at tightening them. It will cost you $50 which is a lot less than dumping more money into your current rifle.
 
Thank you, i will pick one up from Sportsman's Warehouse this week. Then got to find a good day to go shoot. Not any time this week. Its supposed to be up to 114 degrees this saturday. Not looking forward to that

Sounds like a perfect time to go shoot... shooting in adverse conditions is always good for "adjustment" of the shooter and high heat will help you learn to read mirage...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 07:21
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Just looking at your base and ring pictures, you may want to try different rings and bases first, and torque wrench is a must.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 09:43
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My vote, with what limited info is available, is the crown.  

Could be base and rings, which is much simpler to fix.

Good luck.
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When you clean it do you remove the bolt and clean from the rear?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 18:40
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Yes i remove the bolt. I use a bore snake when i clean it. I usually don't do a heavy cleaning on the gun and have not done a heavy cleaning since the break was installed. (its only had about 40 rds through it) i usually just put some Hopes No 9 on the bore snake and pull it through. I never wanted to pull anything back into the action so i assumed it was still ok to pull everything out the end of the barrel, even with the break, am i mistaken? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 18:59
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Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

nice, now if this wasn't the fix... I would have the muzzle brake looked at. It can make rifles do strange things if not straight when installed or seated to the crown correctly.





I agree with Bigdaddy. I'll wager that the muzzle brake is the culprit. I can't see the bore size from your pics but its been my experience that the magnum cals generally do better with a oversized bore. Regardless of port size or number. I built a custom brake for a friends 300wm and after building it to spec. had to open the bore twice to get it back to shooting as before. It still provided great recoil reduction and shot like he wanted it to. Unless they used red locktite you should be able to remove the brake but, I don't recommend shootin without a thread protector/muzzle blank. I'm sure that on that barrel diameter there isn't much metal there at the threads. If you didn't have one made when you had the work done they should be able to make you one for a reasonable price. In fact they can make one to match your threads and if you give them the muzzle diameter they can get pretty close without the gun. If getting the gun to them is a problem. Good Luck!!
Referring to Bigdaddy's post too, if a brake ain't on straight you'll know it right away!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 22:01
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http://www.smithenterprise.com/products06.03.html  I dont use a break I perfer the Smith Vortex flash suppressor because it saves your night vision in low light and might allow you to get off a second shot.
 Cleaning from the rear is good using a hard cleaning rod from the bore can damage or wear on the crown causing degraded accuracy over time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 23:18
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

 

I agree with Bigdaddy. I'll wager that the muzzle brake is the culprit. I can't see the bore size from your pics but its been my experience that the magnum cals generally do better with a oversized bore. Regardless of port size or number. I built a custom brake for a friends 300wm and after building it to spec. had to open the bore twice to get it back to shooting as before. It still provided great recoil reduction and shot like he wanted it to. Unless they used red locktite you should be able to remove the brake but, I don't recommend shootin without a thread protector/muzzle blank. I'm sure that on that barrel diameter there isn't much metal there at the threads. If you didn't have one made when you had the work done they should be able to make you one for a reasonable price. In fact they can make one to match your threads and if you give them the muzzle diameter they can get pretty close without the gun. If getting the gun to them is a problem. Good Luck!!
Referring to Bigdaddy's post too, if a brake ain't on straight you'll know it right away!!

Im pretty sure i cannot remove the brake from the barrel. Ill try shooting it with the new rings, and if i am still getting bad results i will go back to the gunsmith who did the work and go from there. fingers crossed that's not the issue.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 23:20
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

 
 Cleaning from the rear is good using a hard cleaning rod from the bore can damage or wear on the crown causing degraded accuracy over time.

I havent used the metal rods on my gun for a while now, i have the cable cleaning kit and then the bore snake. I never cared for the metal rods but when i used those i cleaned from the rear as i did not want to damage the crown.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2013 at 23:25
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Sgt D here's a pic of the muzzle next to a round for the gun. If i insert the bullet from the front of the muzzle the neck of the case stops it. As i do not have a caliper to measure the size, that may give you an idea of how close the the caliber the inside diameter of the break is
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