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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/12/2008 at 23:38
ckk1106 View Drop Down
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What do you think of this guys' opinions on self defense ammo?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2008 at 08:44
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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this cyclical topic comes up and usually involves handguns , as rifle and shotgun lethality are a given. giving an opinion on another opinion is always interesting- rarely goes anywhere.
type of ammo doesn't really matter when the broader context of the situation is considered. the entire subject always starts from the point of view the user or shooter is "adequately" trained and practiced to ring out the "advantages" which is rarely the case. or that somehow the mystical properties of the silver bullets (this whole thing started with the Lone Ranger by the way) will flow from the bullet thru the gun and up the shooters arm giving the powers similar to the mallet of hercules, and is usually substituted for practice. total energy dump scenarios, or wad cutter take your pick ---
only two things matter
poi=poa with reliable ammo
ability to operate inside the performance curve of your opponent.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2008 at 08:54
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Classicly stated Dale!!! Excellent   
 
My daddy taught all his son there are three rules in a gun fight!
 
  1.) Don't Miss
  2.) Make your first shot count  (10 ring or better )
  3.) SEE RULES 1 and 2
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2008 at 09:11
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The biggest caliber and heaviest bullet you can shoot well and are able to carry.  It is all about shot placement with a handgun, and as Dale said being better than your opponent.  You have to have a bullet/caliber combo that will penetrate deep enough to hit an organ or shoot them in the eyeball.  If you can't take out their hydraulic system, then you have to go for the electrical system.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2008 at 10:23
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Not bad... A bit too much Ayoob and Cor-bon.  I am not a bit fan of using +p to make things work.  I've tried alot of the flavors of .45 acp in +p and find the recoil eats up a lot of the advantage. That is true of a lot of other calibers as well.  +P  in short barreled gun is a waste, those loads use a slower powder that does not burn well in a short barrel.   +P in an alloy gun is not the best move.
 
I like Slugs much more than these guys.  I think OO pattern tends to thin out too quickly. I think that #1 buck should see more use.
 
It comes down to what you can get a good( not great, or perfect) shot with, Damn quick. That shot needs to break bone, cause bleeding, and disrupt the central nerve system. Think about having a gun battle in your bathroom... the faster you can get them broken and bleeding the better you are off.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2008 at 21:03
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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 1. With handguns the long standing rule is that if it doesnt have a 4 or a5 in the caliber it is not adequate for stopping bad guys.
2. Success is in large part determined by the accuracy of bullet placement.  One must be able to control the chosen weapon  -  In real terms that means a small female with a .22 who practices with it every sunday is far more likely to kill a bad guy than someone with a 500 S&W who rarely shoots.
3. For the firearm to be of value you have to have it with you.  A 45-70 pistol locked in the safe at home is not nearly as deadly as a Glock 23 or S&W model 640 in an inside the pants holster.
4. There is nothing more irresponsible than shooting someone you did not intend to shoot -- therefore you must practice and you must be aware of  who may be behind your intended target and make adjustments so as not to hit innocent bystanders.
5. He who shoots the mostest the firstest runs the other guy off --- so take extra ammo lots of extra ammo, and have more in your car.  A lot of bullets can be shot in a 3 minute gunfight. Real policemen carry an extra box of bullets in their briefcase.
6. Shotguns for home defense  are very effective when  loaded with birdshot  like #2, #4, #6 shot.  At close range it cuts a very lethal hole and it usually wont go through your neighbors house and kill them like 00 Buck.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2008 at 12:31
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+1 WesThunbs%20Up
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2008 at 01:26
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Just a side note here regarding self defense point blank range shotguns for home defense.  A friend of mine recently purchased some 12 shot loaded shells for his home defense riot gun, he noted in the comments on the website where he bought it that one customer had complained that the 12 shot did not do a very good job of breaking clay pigeons. The feedback from the next customer told the first - you bought it for entirely the wrong reason this is close range self defense ammo.  Recently we have seen slug guns with a door lock breaching attachment on the muzzle - this is a good thing point blank as you get blow by rather than blow back.  For those who dont understand this - blow back occurs when you fire a gun pressed against a bad guy and blood and tissue are sucked back into the barrel which can render the barrel full of unwanted material that will prevent you addressing the issue of multiple agressors with that firearm.
Another way to accomplish preventing the muzzle from touching the bad guy is to use a magazine tube longer than the barrel.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - August/15/2008 at 01:29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2008 at 09:01
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Rules for a Gunfight

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your
friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is
expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough
or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and
diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a
friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or
tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and
running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more
dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a
gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel
pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to
beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep
your hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2008 at 15:49
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The first rule of a gunfight is don't get shot!
How you do this depends upon the circumstances.
 
The second rule of a gunfight is to survive it and win it, no matter what!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2008 at 16:17
Longhunter View Drop Down
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The Evan Marshall Stopping Power books and Massad Ayoob's columns are based on real life experiences and feedback.  This makes them more useful than any theories (including theirs).  They make for interesting and informative reading.
 
Skill can accomplish marvelous things with less than perfect tools.   Wild Bill Hickock did just fine with a  single-action .36 Colt Navy, which is roughly equivalent to a full-sized .380. 
 
Some of the most important things about a defensive handgun are:
1.  It must be concealable.
2.  It must be comfortable for you to carry at all times.
3.  It must use your shooting skills well  (i.e., it must point naturally and quickly, have a good trigger, and shoot to point of aim for you). 
4.  It is the most effective caliber and bullet choice meeting these criteria.
5.  There are not a lot of levers and safeties that have to be pushed to make the gun work (i.e., all you have to do is point and pull trigger).  [Murphy is alive and well.]
 
The truth is that you will probably need several handguns to fully meet your self-defense needs in differing circumstances.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 01:14
tahqua View Drop Down
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For all the people that have been shot with a 9mm, get up, your not deadWink.

Edited by tahqua - August/17/2008 at 01:14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 08:41
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

For all the people that have been shot with a 9mm, get up, your not deadWink.
 
LOL....Welcome back, Buddy!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 09:35
tahqua View Drop Down
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Thanks, good to be back.
Just joking there, BTW. I'll take the heavier, deeper penetrating hitters I can shoot well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 15:09
tahqua View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

The Evan Marshall Stopping Power books and Massad Ayoob's columns are based on real life experiences and feedback.  This makes them more useful than any theories (including theirs).  They make for interesting and informative reading.
 

 

If this is meant to dismiss Dr Facklers research, I disagree. Both make for entertaining reading, but in terms of research, Fackler is far more scientific. Both camps are at odds with each other. It is interesting that the low mass/high energy crowd has been using jello testing and are supporting penetration more than in the past.
The same rules apply, though. You have to hit the target first. Bullet performance only matters then.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 15:12
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

For all the people that have been shot with a 9mm, get up, your not deadWink.
they may not be dead but i can guarantee that they probably wish they were! 10mm min i would say
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 17:26
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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.22 can be very effective at killing but it is not very effective at stopping someone.
 
I  had a .380 but I didnt ever trust it enough to carry it
 
I have had 9mm's but I dont trust them eaven with 30 round mags so I dont own one.  
 
I  have always had a .38 J frame gun - nice little gun for when you are not really carrying.
 
I feel relatively confident carrying a  40S&W  on or off duty the Glock is quite idiot proof.
 
I carried a .357 for years as a service revolver and they work well.
 
While I think 10 mm and 41 mag would also work well I have never owned either and have no desire to own either. 
 
I carried a S&W 629 as a service revolver for about 6 yrs and I have never felt under gunned with a 44
 
I have probably carried a .45acp more than any other caliber and it is my favorite.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - August/17/2008 at 17:40
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