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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 13:19
flascot007 View Drop Down
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Well, I am new here, and saying hello from central Florida.

I have been on a quest to set up my new rifle (Savage FCP-K 308) with tactical (not taticool), practical, ease of use, quality optic scope.
I know I ask a lot, but, I have been reading through the forum here for several days and been researching on line for even longer to come up with a reasonable solution.
I found this forum in one of my searches and believe this to be the best optics forum around. Thus, I recently joined and now seek ya all's omnipotent knowledge.
To share my finding in short order I have looked very hard at the following.
.
1) Kahles 4-12x52 multi-zero & 3-10x50 multi-zero. I know, not exactly tactical, but able to set up for different ranges out to 800 yards.
2) Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 and/or 50 with rapid-z 800 or 1000 and target turrets.
3) IOR Valdada 2.5-10x42 Tactical and the 3-18x42 Tactical.
4) SWFA SS10XHD
5) SWFA SS3-9x42
.
This is a mid to upper budget I have to spend, I have looked at these with the previous listed reasons in mind. I have read some OK to fan-damn-tastic reviews on just about all of them.
Now that I have narrowed the field, (unless I have missed something), am I in the ball park or is there some other advise you may offer?
 
Average range will be 200-400 yards, but I want the ability to extend out or come closer if need be.
 
Thank you in advance and any help will be greatly appreciated. 
I will be a sponge to the plethora of ya all's great expansive knowledge. Big Grin
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 13:30
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Welcome to OT!

That is a pretty nice rifle you are setting up.  My Savage is exceedingly accurate and I am sure yours will be as well. 

For 200-400 yards, variable Super Sniper is the way go.  Other scopes you mention are very good, but in the bang for the buck department, Variable SS has no rivals.

If longer range shootings was a more frequent thing, I would probably suggest 10x42HD SS, but for your needs 3-9x42 is the perfect configuration.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 13:47
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Agreed.

I have a 40X with the same requirements, and it wears a 3-9SS.  (It's suppressed, too, for that real tacticool look and feel!)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 14:23
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Welcome to the O.T.
All of your choices are top drawer, and I think any of them would fit your needs.
I have a 4.5-14x50 Conquest with a duplex reticle and I love it. The only down side as a tacticle scope are the plastic turret knobs, and the reticle is in the second focal plane.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 18:46
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Hey Brian. Check your email. Chris
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 19:01
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Thanks for the info so far, I know the SS is probably the way to go, I guess I want to see, out of the ones I have listed and any I might not have thought of, which one will have the best clarity and definition at +/- 50 yards to 1000 +/- as well as durability. 

Do I need to concern myself about the adjustable parallax with the example of the SS variable and others? Will 10x be too much for closer ranges, loss of field of view, etc?
Mil-Dot is not my first choice, but I can always learn, Bucky maybe???
This is one of the reasons I liked the Zeiss Rapid-Z and Multi-zero. But I want quality & durability over the minor inconvenience of learning a new system.
The more average Range, as stated before, will be 200-400 range.
I just do not want to limit myself from being able to take a long shot or having to take a closer one. The rifle will cover it, I just want the optic to do the same.
I know I have seen many rifles set up with a Fast-fire or Doctor optic on the scope for anything closer than 75 yards, maybe this is the way, I just was trying to cover all the bases without the clutter. I have seen inclinometers, bubble levels, lasers and more. Damn thing looked like a Christmas tree. Whacko But if I need this stuff to make it come together, then Ho, Ho, Ho!!! Christmas List
 
Struggled between the Savage, which is very capable to 1000 yards and the FNAR more of a medium range around 600 +/- yards. But for the $1000.00 difference, I could not really force myself down that road since the one tacticool item on my shopping list is a AAC hush- hush to add to the others for my Sig556 and 22 Ruger.
I like things much quieter when I shoot. Big Grin
 
I am sure I am complicating this way more than I probably should, but I like to do things right the first time, not over and over through trial and error... This is where you fellas come in. Wink
.
I was not aware of the Target turrets being plastic on the Zeiss, that kinda surprises me.Shocked Nice to know that in advance, that would be a deal breaker for me I believe.
 
Anyway, I will keep everything in mind and make a decision soon. Thanks Again...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 21:17
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I've read people complain about the plastic turrets but have yet to see a complaint that a turret failed (because it was plastic or otherwise.)

Cans are fun, but be ready to every idiot on the range stop you and tell you the law - including some cops.  I've had a few cops tell me my suppressor is illegal, and had more than a few range safety officers tell me they are illegal and try to kick me off their range.

Get what you want, else you'll be doing the same dance in a few months: I know!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 21:33
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I am a retired police officer, taught firearms and self defense in the academy for more than 20+ and it still amazes me the lack of knowledge police and others have about the law. Most in my area are OK, Most around here are very pro bang bang. The range/club I belong to allows cans, they may ask for the paperwork once if they do not know the person, but once your around for awhile they actually welcome the silenced firing line. I even let them shoot it if they smile pretty and ask real nice.Dirty Harry
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 21:41
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I have the savage 10fp 308 20" bull barrel with snipper stock and I love it. They are some tack drivers I tell ya. Hey I replied to your email.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 21:44
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The summary of the review of  S.S. 3x9  by Lowlight on 
Lowlight Online   confused 
 
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Summary, 

These scopes are dead nutz on target, they are the right size and features and address the "Under $1000 decision" in an outstanding way. 

You see it in the reticle and dial it, the round hits exactly where you want it too. 

The clarity is excellent, as the scope has been moved to a new company for SWFA and they are producing a well made product at a reasonable price. Edge to edge clarity is first rate, there no issue with eye relief as it's quite forgiving. 

The size is perfect for an SPR type rifle or even a hunting rifle and will work on your tactical rig for an entry level scope. I have the 10X HD on a light tactical bolt action and really like the way it looks on the rig. The parallax for the 10X is where the power ring is for the 3-9X so you have a similar set up. 

I just shot the rifle out to 800 and it's flawless, dial on my dope, hold for the wind and it hits in the middle. No trying to figure out why my dope isn't right. 

The 3-9X on the Mk11 worked great. The training continued the soldier had confidence in the optic so everything worked out perfect from the use and abuse standpoint. In fact the soldier was part of a 3 way tie for top gun --- no issues.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 20:20
flascot007 View Drop Down
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OK, I'm down to the SS's now. I like all that I read from the reviews and responses from you guy's. (thanks again). The durability and shear apparent quality of these units seem to surpass any of the others shy of reticle options. No negativity intended, I just would like to see some other options and maybe a variable like 4-14, or 3.5-14 would be kinda nice, but I think the bases are pretty well covered considering though.
I am sure to keep the price down and quality up, that is the way it has to be.
 
I am curious as to which scope will be best for the ranges I am looking at, with the ability to be close or far out. For the average of 200-400, Koshkin already gave the thumbs up to the 3-9.
Not trying to doubt him I wanted to make sure he knew all my needs in the optic, just in case I was not clear enough, (as if that would happen Bucky Duh!) if I wanted to reach out further.
 
I am pretty sure the 3-9 will work fine, and the 10x might be tough on close up shots withing 100 yards by loosing the field of view.
 
1) I like the parallax adjustment ability on the 10x and the clarity of the HD.
2) I like the variable of the 3-9 and apparent clarity.
3) Is the parallax adjustment that critical if I am taking shots past 500 yards?
4) Is the difference in glass quality any, or much different with the 3-9 and 10X-HD?
 
As I said before, I can always tie a Doctor optics or Fastfire to this if I am going with the 10X for those close up shots. Or is this even necessary?
 
I thank you all again, most of you have hands on with these scopes and I am limited except for the advise I can get here.
 
Any last thoughts from you guys and I will put this dog to rest....Whacko
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2009 at 14:13
flascot007 View Drop Down
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Is it something I said???Shocked
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2009 at 14:19
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Originally posted by flascot007 flascot007 wrote:

1) Kahles 4-12x52 multi-zero & 3-10x50 multi-zero. I know, not exactly tactical, but able to set up for different ranges out to 800 yards.
2) Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 and/or 50 with rapid-z 800 or 1000 and target turrets.
3) IOR Valdada 2.5-10x42 Tactical and the 3-18x42 Tactical.
4) SWFA SS10XHD
5) SWFA SS3-9x42
 
Let's start with what you don't want and that would be the Kahles, with no importer and an unstable future this is too much of a monetary risk.
 
I would also take the Zeiss off the list but not because of the turrets as they are fine, you don't hear people complaining about Glocks being plastic do ya?  I would not consider the Zeiss for your application because the Rapid reticles are more for hunting and the one size fits all does not translate well into precision target shooting.
 
That leaves the IORs and the SSs.  Forget the 2.5-10 because whey would you want that if you can have the 3-18.  So now we are down to a 3-18 IOR vs. the two new SS scopes.
 
On paper the IOR has the clear advantage being 3-18 (6x erector).  The downside to the IOR is their hit or miss QC and questionable durability.  Their failures are well documented all over the Internet.  Granted all brands have failures and issues, it is just that IOR seems to have more than their share.  If it was not for this and money was not an issue I would pick the IOR.
 
Of course you know I might be a little biased to my two new babies (SS3-9x42 and 10x42 HD) but I know what all went into these and I know how good they are.  When we started this project we did completely opposite of what other manufacturers do we did not restrict the engineers with a budget, we presented them with what the scopes had to be optically and mechanically and let them have free reign budget wise.  The end result is a product with no compromises due to budget restraints.  We have a small mountain to climb now to recoup our huge initial investment and at the price we sell these it will take a while but we are in this for the long haul.
 
Keeping with the tradition of the original (and still available) SS scopes, these two new offerings compete with scopes priced 2-3x their price range.  We do this by not making 400% profit margins due to our extremely low over head and our business model to sell more for less which passes the savings to the end user.
 
Which ever SS you pick you can rest assured that you are getting a $1,000.00 + scope value for much less.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2009 at 15:28
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Thanks Chris,
I am pretty settled on the SS scope, I am just left as to which one,
Variable or the 10x-HD.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2009 at 15:37
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  Smile    Savage FCP-K 308  My  that should be a nice toy accutrigger accustock and a heavy profile fluted barrel with a muzzle break on the end.  (double up on ear protection until you get the can).   Will you cut the barrel length to put the can on or will the muzzle break threads match up and just add length?

As for scopes it really depends on your budget. Lets start by saying I have two Mk4 Leupolds and most of my scopes are Super Snipers with the 16x being the only model I have not had several of. If you are wanting to spend less than a thousand dollars there simply is no better option than the 3-9x42 FFP Super Sniper  or the 10xHD Super Sniper and of the two of them I would probably put the 10x HD on that particular rifle mainly because you said "Retired" which to me means that is probably not going to be carried in the squad car and used for Police use. It is most likely to be used on the range for enjoyment and to maintain skills so having the parallax adjustment for when you decide to start shooting 600 to 1000 is an advantage. If on the other hand you were going to put a scope on a police sniper rifle that was going to be used on duty I would go with the 3-9x42 Super Sniper because most police tactical situations are from about 60 to 120 yds they are well under 200 yds.  Military snipers start at 600 and it goes out from there.  I know at this point you are asking what am I missing  --- have I considered all the options. If you feel you need more magnification or illumination there are other options U.S.Optics, Nightforce, Premier, S&B, Heinsoldt (tactical Zeiss) some of these cost as much as a used truck though so if you can tell us how much pain you can tollerate we can find something. Meanwhile I'll just wish I had one of the ones below while I shoot my SS 10x HD.  Note:  All Super Sniper scopes seem to have lots more internal adjustment than other brands, not having enough adjustment to get past 1000 yds is just not an issue for SS.
Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope
Stock # - PRH09045
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Illuminated Gen II Mil-Dot
  • 34mm
  • Double-Turn 0.1 MRad (27 mrad of Elevation travel)
  • Counter-Clockwise
  • Free Flip Open Lens Caps w/ Purchase
$2,599.00 
Add Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope to Cart 
Zeiss 4-16x56 Tactical Hensoldt Telescopic 34mm Sight First Focal Plane Illuminated Mil-Dot Zeiss 4-16x56 Tactical Hensoldt Telescopic 34mm Sight
Stock # - 3302929001
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Illuminated Mil-Dot
  • 34mm
  • Target Knobs
  • Side Focus
  • 0.1 MRAD
$3,462.95 
LoveSnoopyThunbs Up
Add Zeiss 4-16x56 Tactical Hensoldt Telescopic 34mm Sight to Cart 

 



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - September/27/2009 at 17:41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2009 at 15:40
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If this is strictly a range gun that will be shooting 200-400 mostly with some longer range (like you mentioned), then I would go HD.  IF this rifle will be used for other things like hunting then I would go with the variable as it is more versatile for inside 100 yard shots.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2009 at 15:48
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I agree with Chris, Brian. Same thing I told you. Now just pick one and buy it.Yippee
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2009 at 18:10
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I almost agree with Chris on this.  I would not immediately discard the IOR 2.5-10x42 FFP.  I think it is the most direct competitor to the Variable SS 3-9x42.  The 3-18x42FFP is a lot more expensive (I have one) and has a lot more magnification.  

IOR's QC problems seem to be quite a bit more sever with the 3-18x42 than with the designs they have been making for a long time.  2.5-10x42 has been around for quite a while and appear to be quite bit more robust.

If you compare IOR 2.5-10x42FFP  to Variable SS based on the features, here is how it stacks up:

Magnification range: IOR has a slight edge, but Variable SS has almost the same field of view at 3x as IOR at 2.5x.  Not enough difference to worry about

Optical quality: I have not seen these two side by side (I sold my IOR 2.5-10x42 a while back), but I would expect them to be quite close as well, with maybe a slight edge to IOR.  Once again not enough to worry about.

Mechanical quality: IOR 2.5-10x42 is one of IOR's more robust designs.  Variable SS (I'll call it VS from now on) is new, but based on other SS scopes it should be tough as nails.  I do much prefer the knobs on the VSS.  They are rock solid and easy to reset.

Reticle: I prefer IOR's MP-8 to the standard MilDot, but both work well.

Eye relief: VSS has more flexible eye relief than IOR.

Side focus/parallax: neither one has side focus/parallax adjustment.

Price: VSS is $400 cheaper.  That is quite a bit of practice ammo.

Customer service: I expect VSS to be supported better than any other scope on the market.

Other features:  they are of similar dimensions with VSS being a bit heavier.  IOR has reticle illumination which VSS does not.  In absense of illumination, I think VSS has more visible in low light reticle (the outer bars are a bit thicker, I think).

In the end it comes down to whether illuminated reticle is worth $400 to you.

For my money, I would be buying a variable Super Sniper between these two.

Between Variable Super Sniper and the new 10xHD model, it really comes down to what you prefer.  I have both.  For shooting the tightest groups 10x42HD is the way to go.  However, 3-9x42 is ultimately a more versatile design.  It really comes down to how you plan to use the rifle.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 00:20
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Tagged for interest.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 00:53
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Of the IOR's one has to watch because only the FFP version is 1/10 mil and the rest are 1/2 moa per click.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 09:44
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I mostly agree with Koshkin, but I have more trouble doing business with IOR due to "hit-n-miss" Customer Service (good Customer Service has great value to me, especially in something that costs what these do.)

The fact that Chris backs his gear so thoroughly will prevent me from buying any IOR that aligns with a SuperSniper.

You asked about the 3-9 glas vs. the 10X HD glass, I cannot say which is better (haven't seen both side-by-side but I want the answer to that question as well.

Chris, how much difference in glass between the 2?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 10:09
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Thanks Wes, Great Info...
Yeah, I know she is going to have a big bark with the muzzle break on, but I believe the threads are 5/8-24 and would accept the AAC Cyclone I intend to put on her. I have not had the chance to break it down yet. If it is not right, I have a fantastic smithy that will do as I desire.Big Grin
 
As for your selection of dream scopes, I have handled the Zeiss on a friends rifle and that has to be the cats meow of sniper scopes. But if I was that kind of heavy with unlimited funds I would have to put this kind of glass on this, Love 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 10:13
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

...You asked about the 3-9 glas vs. the 10X HD glass, I cannot say which is better (haven't seen both side-by-side but I want the answer to that question as well.

Chris, how much difference in glass between the 2?
 
The HD has better glass.  How much difference is a hard question to answer because it is subjective.  An experience shooter can pick up on the differences quickly but our UPS driver could not.
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Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

...You asked about the 3-9 glas vs. the 10X HD glass, I cannot say which is better (haven't seen both side-by-side but I want the answer to that question as well.

Chris, how much difference in glass between the 2?
 
The HD has better glass.  How much difference is a hard question to answer because it is subjective.  An experience shooter can pick up on the differences quickly but our UPS driver could not.



Nice!
Damned UPS drivers!
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Chris, I would not be lugging this beast in the woods, the barrel is a monster, but if I was starving??? Sharp Shooter
Going hungry is not an option....
I am going to say distance average of 80% of the time will be within 800 yards. This is one of the reasons I considered the IOR 3-18x42 and this would cover all the bases.
I see you have 2 versions on line and I assume that one is FFP and the other is not. Which is better? FFP or???
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