New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Seating depth question
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Seating depth question

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 16:35
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Being new to reloading, I have questions in regards to how deep I can seat some 225 grain Accubonds in my Savage .338 WM. 

I tried to find my optimum seating depth by slightly flattening two sides of the neck on a once fired case to the point that it has a firm enough grasp on the bullet to keep it from slipping, and then starting a bullet in the case and chambering it.  I did this on four separate bullets/cases, and they measured in at 3.532, 3.530, 3.530, and 3.529(super long throat).  I take that as enough consistency to get me close.  And since my handy Nosler loading manual says to try backing off .015-.030, I pushed them into the cases so that they were all 3.500- the furthest from the lands that is recommended.

The problem is that they don't fit in the magazine at that length.  At 3.480, they just barely clear the front edge of the magazine.  This also looks to be very close to where they need to be so that the entire neck is holding onto bullet shank.  They stayed at 3.480 after being fed out of the magazine though, so I know that they will fit all the way down in the magazine without pushing on the bullets too much.  But I was thinking that since this is a .338 WM, recoil will probably present a problem with bullets barely fitting in the magazine...

So does anyone have any suggestions?  Seat them even a little deeper?  Crimp them?  Both?  What kind of die do I need to order for crimping?  Does a regular bullet seating die have that capability?  Does this rifle have much chance of shooting these bullets worth a darn?

I think a 225 Accubond would be a great bullet for this cartridge, but the Federal loadings with that bullet have never shot better than about 1.75" for 3 shots at 100; with the norm being more like 3-4 inches for 5 shots.  I was hoping to get to the point where the rifle could put 5 rounds into at least 2" or less, to take advantage of the high B.C. of this bullet. 

Does anyone else have any suggestions on what to do with such a long throated rifle?  The Savage 7mm RM I have is pretty long-throated too, but 160 Partitions look like they should work out just fine.  Although the 162 A-Max I was hoping to use in the 7mm will need to be seated quite a ways back from the lands to have a full grip between the cartridge neck and bullet shank.  Makes me appreciate the Win 70 30-06 that will fit a 180 Ballistic Tip/Accubond perfectly...


Edited by jason miller - December/13/2011 at 16:38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 17:51
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 9520
You should not need to crimp much if any.  I don't crimp for anything even my semi autos.  A .338 might have enough recoil that you need to, but I don't for my semi auto 7 mag or my 7 lb 300 WSM and they work just fine.

A lot of rifles have real long throats so you cannot load close to the lands and still fit in the mags.  For rifles like that I just load to the COL specs listed in the reloading book you are using. 

A regular seating die is also made to crimp, you just have to set it up to do that.  You have to move the whole die down on the press to accomplish that. 

Hornady makes a COL tool that will allow you to see what your throat length is with more accuracy than what you are doing. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 19:52
sakomato View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/28/2008
Location: Houston
Status: Offline
Points: 1085

Hey Jason

Lee makes an excellent die to crimp in a separate operation.  It's called the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  You don't have to crimp in a cannelure and trim length is not critical.  You can set the amount of crimp you want by watching the gap between the collets on the top close.  In my tests they will slightly improve accuracy and slightly increase velocity.

They are cheap at $12.00 and will keep your bullets from moving.
 
I didn't have very good luck with accuracy and the 225 Accubond in my 338 win mag or the 338RUM.  My favorite bullet is the 225 gr Barnes Tipped Triple Shock.  BC not as good but accuracy improved and ruins less meat.
 
You will get a different overall length with different bullets and those with a less pointed nose can be seated closer to the lands and have a shorter OAL.  For an extreme example you would be able to shoot a round nose bullet and seat it close to the lands and still have plenty of room in the magazine.  So if you have a long throat then you can compromise between a long pointy bullet and a round nose and get both your wants.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 20:49
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Yeah, I already thought about that.  Hornady makes a round nose, but the BC is only like .291.  There are several regular spitzers that run anywhere in the .400's, like a Partition.  I'm wondering if I will be able to get any kind of accuracy with an aerodynamic bullet.  Kind of a catch 22- give up accuracy for ballistic advantages that do no good since you can't hit anything past 200 yards, or get an accurate load that has such poor ballistics that hitting anything past 300 becomes a challenge with drop and wind.  Or at least that's the way I understand it would probably be...

Ever have much luck finding accurate loads with bullets that aren't anywhere near the lands?  Any specific bullet recommendations for me to try?  Also, I saw on a supplier's website (but not on Nosler's site yet) that there is a new 300 grain Accubond coming out.  I don't think it would work for me, but maybe something for you to play with in your bigger .338...

Oh, and I have some H4350 to try out with whatever I end up using.  I know most manuals claim top velocity with RL19, but I've read that Alliant powders aren't the best for temp sensitivity.  Any powders you suggest that work best in your .338 WM?


Edited by jason miller - December/13/2011 at 20:56
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 21:14
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
This .338 really has been a headache.  My grandpa bought it from a distant relative before going to Alaska to visit even more distant relatives, and then gave it to me a few years ago.  I put a Limbsaver pad on it and refinished the laminated wood stock(pain in the butt).  Next I replaced the ill-fitting, gloss finished scope mounts with Weaver Grand Slam steel bases and Warne rings.  Then I had to find a friggin' scope to fit for both tube length and eye relief.  A Bushnell 4200 3-9x40 has enough eye relief as long as I'm very careful in the prone or sitting positions(guess how I found that out), and a Burris FFII has a tad more eye relief while just barely having enough tube length.  I have the Elite on it now, but still not 100 percent set on it.  I almost broke down and bought a Conquest awhile back, and now kinda wish I had just gone straight for it in the first place.  Either of the other two scopes "work" though.

That certain supplier mentioned earlier had a bunch of Federal 225 AB ammo on sale for $40/box a couple years ago, so I bought 5 boxes assuming it would shoot anything at least decent, just like any other Savage I've shot.  I also bought 3 boxes of "blem" 225 AB's about the same time that were marked about half off(can't find anything wrong with them, except they have a cannelure groove).  And as previously mentioned, it's been lackluster in the accuracy department.  The one box of Federal 180 AB's and 225 Fusions I tried didn't shoot any better.  I'm almost positive that I'm not flinching, and nobody else can get a good group with it either.

The only other thing I can think is that since I have no idea how the rifle was taken care of in its previous life, maybe the barrel is crap.  And if I ever put a new barrel on it, I'm not so sure I wouldn't go 7mm RM.  That would keep the same bolt face, and be more than enough for anything I ever want to shoot.  And I could sell my other Savage 7mm.

My girlfriend of 9 years just got transferred/promoted; so I'll be moving out to Denver in the spring after I get this knee surgery/recovery wrapped up.  So there will hopefully be a day when I can put this rifle to use- in whatever configuration it happens to end up in.

Sorry to be long-winded.  I'm just a little puzzled/frustrated and also bored from being shut in at home with the bum knee...


Edited by jason miller - December/13/2011 at 21:16
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 21:21
ckk1106 View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: December/14/2007
Location: Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 1435
I've never crimped any of my 338 win mag rounds and haven't had any problems.  Also, I haven't noticed any great increase in accuracy with different seating depth with that round.  I wasn't interested, though, with benchrest accuracy with that gun.  I just used it for big game, and have never been interested in long range hunting.  Maybe it was my gun... or me..., but I never got better than 1.5 inch groups.  That was good enough for me considering what I was using it for.  I had the best luck with 250 grain Swift A-Frames and RL 22 if I remember correctly. 
It's up to you, but I wouldn't worry too much crimping or seating depth. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 21:43
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 9520
I dont have a .338, but I have had really good luck with Sierra game king bullets.  In .243, 7mm, and .30.  They have always shot very well for me.  I am not a huge fan of premium bullets just because of the cost.  I can get twice as much practice with the cheaper bullets and they will kill anything I have ever shot. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 23:37
sakomato View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/28/2008
Location: Houston
Status: Offline
Points: 1085

Like supertool said, the Sierra Game King would be a bullet that has a less pointed nose and a fairly high BC but only come in 215 gr (BC .465) and 250 gr (BC .565).

I know others will disagree but I have had poor luck also with the 338 win mag.  Had a friend who had a Sako Finnbear and I worked with it and wound up loading 72 gr IMR4831 with a 225 gr TSX for a pretty consistant 1".  On my 338 win mag I used a lot of RL19 on different loads and it consistantly produced the best accuracy and wound up loading 72.5 gr RL19 with the 225 Accubond.  The velocities were fairly low so I wound up rebarelling it to my 338RUM and it shoots 225 gr TTSX's lights out everyday at 3100 fps with RL25.
 
BTW the BC of the 225 gr TTSX is .514 which is decent
 
You might want to try the 210 or 215 gr bullets
 
Don't believe the RL temp sensitivity rumors, ain't happening, been debunked several times on different sites, not any better or any worse than other powders
 
You might want to try bedding the action and chamber and torquing the action screws.  That has solved more problems for me with problem rifles than anything else.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 00:10
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
I truly appreciate all of your input.  In the past hour or so, I've read a couple of related thread in which you posted in more detail about the dies and methods you've suggested to me.  That has cleared up a lot.  Sorry for not doing a search in the first place...

I was thinking that heavier bullets might be the answer, since even the 225 AB's just barely have the bullet's shank at the base of the neck when seated at 3.480.  A lighter(shorter, Barnes notwithstanding) bullet should then have to be seated even deeper, no?  Maybe if it didn't have a boat tail? Or am I missing something?

Oh, and I've probably spent more time looking up B.C. values in the last year than anyone has any business doing, but thanks for keeping them in mind for me anyway.Wink

That's interesting with the Alliant powders, and brings RL17 into play with my .243 and middle weight bullets.  An 80gr TTSX at 3350-3400 should be fun.Devil

A local gunsmith bedded and recrowned the .338 for me not long after I got it.  But to be honest, I've never been too keen on his bedding job.  I think it might be JB Weld, and it has some resistance when I torque the action into the stock.  I bedded that 7mm I have with a cheap fiberglass bondo kit, and it seems to have worked great.  Maybe I should dremel out the .338 and redo it?

Once again, thanks a bunch for your time and information.  This reloading thing will be a lot smoother for me thanks to your help.  If there were an emoticon with the little yellow guy bowing, I would put it here.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 05:03
trigger29 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

Joined: September/29/2007
Location: South Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 4292
I'm not a believer that just because a bullet isn't close to the lands, it can't shoot well either. My .300 wby with a 208 A-max is jumping a solid 5/8", and still shoots very well. I'm not saying all do, but not being able to hit the lands isn't necessarily a death sentence either.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 08:17
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1723
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

I'm not a believer that just because a bullet isn't close to the lands, it can't shoot well either. My .300 wby with a 208 A-max is jumping a solid 5/8", and still shoots very well. I'm not saying all do, but not being able to hit the lands isn't necessarily a death sentence either.

Exactly. If long- throated Weatherbys were grossly inaccurate, who would shoot them?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 08:31
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18339
Alan, good to see you.  Happy Christmas and Merry New Year...

I agree. I've always liked Weatherby's.  They have always performed well for me.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 08:59
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 9520
Also, I would not get to hung up on the BCs.  Unless you are shooting long range it is just not going to make that much difference to you for typical hunting distances.  I never put to much weight on the BC of a bullet for my hunting guns.  Its more about just finding one that shoots good.


Edited by supertool73 - December/14/2011 at 08:59
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 09:08
sakomato View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/28/2008
Location: Houston
Status: Offline
Points: 1085
Originally posted by jason miller jason miller wrote:


I was thinking that heavier bullets might be the answer, since even the 225 AB's just barely have the bullet's shank at the base of the neck when seated at 3.480.  A lighter(shorter, Barnes notwithstanding) bullet should then have to be seated even deeper, no?  Maybe if it didn't have a boat tail? Or am I missing something?

 
An all copper bullet like the Barnes will have a longer bearing surface per weight than an comparably weighted bullet that has lead in it.   IOW bullets like the TSX, E-Tip and the Hornady one will be longer than you think.  The E-Tip enough so that they recommend a lower charge weight max for it because of it's long bearing surface and gilding metal skin.
 
RL17 is my favorite powder now.  It has been phenomenal in my 6.5 rem mag, 30-06 and 375 Ruger.  A little too fast for my 280AI, 300 win mag and 338 RUM though.  Your really should try it in your 30-06
 
 
If your bedding has resistance when torquing down then that may be your problem.  The answer would be to redo it with Acraglas or pillar bed it.  The pillar bedding would take all the stress off your stock and put it all on the 2 pillars around your action screws.  Don't know not there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 11:28
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
I guess I phrased that wrong-  I know very well that Barnes bullets are longer for their weight.  Oops.  And I guess maybe it's time to check the bedding.

Thanks for the thread links.  I will pour over them after I get back from physical therapy.  My 30-06 is a Win 70 Featherweight.  It was a 1:10 twist, 22" tube.  With that twist rate, I was thinking a 168 TTSX or any 180 would probably be my best bet.  And I was under the impression that RL17 showed the most gains in the 30-06 with 200gr bullets(?), which would mean it would be a hair slow burning to effectively work with 180's.  And since I only have a 22" barrel, I wondered if I would even see the benefit with that bullet weight.  But those are assumptions based on less info than I'd like to have on the subject, so I may be grossly wrong??

Anyway, thanks again for all the info.  Maybe it's time I join a handloading forum...



And supertool, you're absolutely right.  At most ranges I'll be shooting it absolutely won't make a gnat's eyelash worth of difference.  I just would like to get all the efficiency I can, if possible...

Oh, the Weatherby thing- I completely forgot about that.  Good point.  Maybe there is hope for my rifle afterall.




Edited by jason miller - December/14/2011 at 11:29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2011 at 07:47
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 28753
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Also, I would not get to hung up on the BCs.  Unless you are shooting long range it is just not going to make that much difference to you for typical hunting distances.  I never put to much weight on the BC of a bullet for my hunting guns.  Its more about just finding one that shoots good.
+1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2011 at 12:25
Steelbenz View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
ROLL TIDE ROLL

Joined: January/03/2006
Location: Heart of Dixie
Status: Offline
Points: 4902
Trigger. Your launching .208s in a .300 wheatherby? Dude I shudder just thinking about that.   Got 600 of the Amaxs an 500 of the BTHPs. Might need to load some up for my boss.   LOL!    Let him take the beating.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2011 at 16:00
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 28753
I am running the 240s SMK in my 300 win mag Steel.  Going to try the new 230gr Bergers soon
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Seating depth question"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
bullet seating depth deerkiller Reloading & Ballistics 8 3/28/2007 8:15:06 AM
Howa 1500 Bullet seating depth trojan73 Reloading & Ballistics 3
308 seating depth fatboy15th Reloading & Ballistics 5
seating depth question Brad4213 Reloading & Ballistics 8
A good question... about depths Bigdaddy0381 Reloading & Ballistics 18 9/19/2007 8:09:59 AM
PROPER CHAMBER DEPTH ? hot30 Firearms 8 10/7/2007 7:22:03 PM
best depth of field spot shooter Binoculars 16 6/22/2006 10:37:39 AM
Fire seating rings? samuel Rifle Scopes 5 2/17/2006 7:09:29 AM
seating primers ckk1106 Reloading & Ballistics 8
Re-sizing the neck using the seating die Dolphin Reloading & Ballistics 14


This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.