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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 15:31
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I have an M1A Squad Scout and I'm looking for options. My goal is to use this 80%:20% iron sights/glass. My original goal was a conventional mount and a Weaver DMS 1-4 illuminated but that went out the window. While I've never been a huge fan of the scout scope concept, I've pretty much given up on mounting a conventional scope on it. There are just waaaaay too many pitfalls if you aren't looking to mount it and leave it. And even if you do plan to leave it it's so far from the ideal arrangement that I don't want to deal with it. Trust me I've looked.

From playing around with it it looks like I need a constant 14-16" of eye relief if I use the factory scout mount. My goal is to go with low enough magnification for fast moving dangerous game like Russian Bore, and for those stuff hits the fan times when you don't have time to unlock the quick release rings. To me that means a 1-4x or a 2-7x. Here's what I'm looking at.

At the high end:
The Burris 2-7x32 handgun scope with ballistic plex reticle.

Mid-range:
The Bushnell Elite 3200 2-6x32 handgun scope.

Low-end:
The Weaver Classic 1.5-4x20 handgun scope.

Does anybody have any experience with these scopes in a scout application? Will they work with a consistent 14-16" eye relief? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Note to the moderator: I'd love to see you ad a category for scout rifles. It kind of falls between rifle and pistol as far as optics goes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 16:41
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Why would you need 14-16" of eye relief? Last time I checked M1A scout worked fine with Burris and Leupold scout scopes which have about 9-10" of eye relief.

ILya 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 16:45
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The closest I can get my eye is just over the base of the pistol grip. That's about 11" from the breach face and I usually figure real world eye relief as 1" shorter than claimed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 17:00
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With very long eye relief scopes like scout and pistols scope there is a lot more flexibility for eye position.

I would stay away from variables and keep it simple.  Scout scopes are at their best when they have thick retcles for quick acquisition and low magnification.  Either Leupold 2.5x28 scout scope or the competing Burris 2.75x20 scout would be your best options, IMO.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 18:03
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the 4x leo pistol works well but its not quite as "fast" as the 2x powers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 18:15
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Sholling....................A seperate category for scout rifles/scopes??? We`d be in the minority around here! Are you kiddin??? We wouldn`t have too much company!! Shocked
 
I have a scout rifle and a combo scout rifle/pistol scope; the Ruger Frontier 300 WSM compact with a 2.5-8x28 Nikon Monarch EER UCC, which is mounted on the barrel in the scout position...........
 
The distance between my aiming eye and the ocular is 10.5" and regardless of whatever my magnification is set on, this Nikon`s fast focus eye piece will quickly and easily maximize my FOV. To learn more, go to "shootingtimes.com" then click "optics" and then page to find the article written by Dick Metcalf entitled "Dual Purpose Optics from Nikon" which is the reason why I have that Nikon on my rifle!............My 300, regardless of the shorter 16.5" tube, does ballistically exceed a 24" tubed 30-06 by a good margin. That`s why the 8x on the high end, as my little compact is also makes for an excellent long range big game shooter!........     
 
If your hunting ranges are less than 200 yards, go with either the Burris 2.75x fixed scout or the Leupold 2.5x fixed scout. Higher powers within 200 yards are un-necessary. With either one you should not have a problem with eye relief. I agree with Koshkin here!  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 01:51
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

With very long eye relief scopes like scout and pistols scope there is a lot more flexibility for eye position.

I would stay away from variables and keep it simple.  Scout scopes are at their best when they have thick retcles for quick acquisition and low magnification.  Either Leupold 2.5x28 scout scope or the competing Burris 2.75x20 scout would be your best options, IMO.

ILya
 
sounds like the best choice to me
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 02:36
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Sholling....................A seperate category for scout rifles/scopes??? We`d be in the minority around here! Are you kiddin??? We wouldn`t have too much company!! Shocked
But we'd know where to post. As it is now if we post under rifles we have to hope somebody with pistol scope experience replies. If we post under handguns there's a danger if getting lots of "why is this rifle question under handguns?" and few replies.

Quote I have a scout rifle and a combo scout rifle/pistol scope; the Ruger Frontier 300 WSM compact with a 2.5-8x28 Nikon Monarch EER UCC, which is mounted on the barrel in the scout position...........
Thank you (and everyone else!!!) I read article you suggested and I'm sold on the Nikon. Now I just have to decide if I want the plex reticle version at SWFA's bargain price or do I wait for the ballistic plex version for $100 more. Right now I'm thinking standard plex because of the thicker lines and price, but I love ballistic plex on my hunting rifles.
 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 08:56
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scout scopes are at least in theory best mounted low and even with the receiver, quick release features, for use of a ghost ring, on a quick shorter gun, whick allows  for a more natural shoulder forward both eyes open shot (both eyes should be open shooting regular scopes, but is another topic) more similiar to shotgun shooting.
a variable goes the other way with the theory, why not get a sadlak with see thrus, and a 1x4 nf or something. a ballistic plex really defeats the purpose.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 11:31
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Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Sholling....................A seperate category for scout rifles/scopes??? We`d be in the minority around here! Are you kiddin??? We wouldn`t have too much company!! Shocked
But we'd know where to post. As it is now if we post under rifles we have to hope somebody with pistol scope experience replies. If we post under handguns there's a danger if getting lots of "why is this rifle question under handguns?" and few replies.

Quote I have a scout rifle and a combo scout rifle/pistol scope; the Ruger Frontier 300 WSM compact with a 2.5-8x28 Nikon Monarch EER UCC, which is mounted on the barrel in the scout position...........
Thank you (and everyone else!!!) I read article you suggested and I'm sold on the Nikon. Now I just have to decide if I want the plex reticle version at SWFA's bargain price or do I wait for the ballistic plex version for $100 more. Right now I'm thinking standard plex because of the thicker lines and price, but I love ballistic plex on my hunting rifles.
 

......Sholling................Dale and I are perhaps the only two guys on here with genuine scout scope set ups on hunting rifles. Maybe a seperate category between rifle and pistol scopes wouldn`t be too bad an idea..............Yep! Glad you read the article. That 2.5-8x28 Nikon Monarch is an excellent scope. Bright, clear and very resolute. For my 300 though, the fixed scouts in the 2.75x from Burris or the 2.5x from Leupy just don`t have enough magnification for extended range hunting if needed to suit me...............I have just the plex reticle. Not a ballistic plex or a BDC guy! My hunting zeros are always set at 300 yards anyway. Between that, my chrony and my ARC rangefinder, there is hardly any longer range guess work!............For your purposes, I would think the standard reticle for the great buy of $189 + shipping from SWFA would be your best bet! Got mine in early last month from SWFA. Traded in my 3x9 4200, as I prefer the scout setup much better for my Frontier. Those Nikons are $289 from everywhere else............If they are still available from SWFA for $189, better grab one.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 11:57
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I am with Dale on this one (and I have shot a lot of scout rifles over the years, and am planning to get the Savage one again).

I can definitely see the advantage of a variable for target shooting.  Now, I have a lot less experience hunting than most people here, but I spend a lot of time on the range shooting at things at different ranges.  With a 2.5x scout I am perfectly comfortable shooting at 8" plates out to 400 yards.  I can't imagine it not being sufficient for big game hunting.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 12:22
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Well I took the majority of folks' advice and went with SWFA's deal the Monarch UCC 2.5-8x28 and a set of Leupold quick detach low rings. The rifle is an M1A Squad Scout and I'll use the irons for 90% of my practice but I want the glass to. I'm sure that I'll mainly keep the scope set at 2.5x (which covers the rest of the advice given) but it's nice to have the ability to zoom in just in case I ever need it. I'm not one to mount the Hubble telescope on hunting rifles... target rifles yes, hunters no.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 12:25
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Oops! I almost forgot my manners... Thanks to all that replied! The level of knowledge on here is amazing.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 12:59
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Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

Well I took the majority of folks' advice and went with SWFA's deal the Monarch UCC 2.5-8x28 and a set of Leupold quick detach low rings. The rifle is an M1A Squad Scout and I'll use the irons for 90% of my practice but I want the glass to. I'm sure that I'll mainly keep the scope set at 2.5x (which covers the rest of the advice given) but it's nice to have the ability to zoom in just in case I ever need it. I'm not one to mount the Hubble telescope on hunting rifles... target rifles yes, hunters no.
............................For the money IMO, you get more scope with the Nikon for the $189 sale price, than you otherwise would with the Burris or Leupy scouts, both which cost more!......... But with the Nikon, there is always the added versatility and option with the variable if or when you ever need it, that you don`t have with the other two!....... For hunting, the Nikon still offers both eyes open aiming and quick target acquisition capability set on 2.5x  Then, throw it up to 8x for some paper punching! For hunting or target use there are more power options with the Nikon and at $189, it is simply a much better deal than either the Burris or Leupold scouts and certainly with great glass to match, as I have looked through all three!..............To optimize FOV`s in any power, the fast focus eye piece is the true best feature on this Nikon!  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 14:54
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Eyepiece focusing is not really there for field of view adjustment.  I suspect that all you are doing is introducing parallax error to the system.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 15:38
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Eyepiece focusing is not really there for field of view adjustment.  I suspect that all you are doing is introducing parallax error to the system.

ILya
....................On this particular Nikon pistol/rifle scout scope, it is there for FOV adjustments! When the magnification is changed the eye relief also changes. On this scope, regardless of power, the fast focus eye piece corrects any changes in FOV thereby maintaining the same distance from your head to the ocular lense!...................Read Dick Metcalf`s article "Dual Purpose Optics from Nikon" on "shootingtimes.com" under the "optics" section! As far as the fast focus is concerned in relation to FOV, he explains it there in his article, why this particular scope does what it does and its usefulness as a scout scope................  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 15:53
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I have read that article.

While I have the greatest respect for Mr Metcalfe as a gun writer, he is flat our wrong on this one (I am guessing he knows a lot more about rifles than about scopes).

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 16:15
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I have read that article.

While I have the greatest respect for Mr Metcalfe as a gun writer, he is flat our wrong on this one (I am guessing he knows a lot more about rifles than about scopes).

ILya
......................Well what can I tell ya!....In owning 2 exactly alike, one on my revolver and the newest one now permenently on my Frontier, I have used both on my Frontier and it does exactly what he says! So while you disagree with him, my results confirm is assessment. I can take my fast focus eye piece and adjust for the best FOV, regardless of whatever the magnification is set on!............If it didn`t, I wouldn`t have bought another and traded in my 4200!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 17:19
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Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

I have an M1A Squad Scout and I'm looking for options. My goal is to use this 80%:20% iron sights/glass. My original goal was a conventional mount and a Weaver DMS 1-4 illuminated but that went out the window. While I've never been a huge fan of the scout scope concept, I've pretty much given up on mounting a conventional scope on it. There are just waaaaay too many pitfalls if you aren't looking to mount it and leave it. And even if you do plan to leave it it's so far from the ideal arrangement that I don't want to deal with it. Trust me I've looked.

From playing around with it it looks like I need a constant 14-16" of eye relief if I use the factory scout mount. My goal is to go with low enough magnification for fast moving dangerous game like Russian Bore, and for those stuff hits the fan times when you don't have time to unlock the quick release rings. To me that means a 1-4x or a 2-7x. Here's what I'm looking at.

At the high end:
The Burris 2-7x32 handgun scope with ballistic plex reticle.

Mid-range:
The Bushnell Elite 3200 2-6x32 handgun scope.

Low-end:
The Weaver Classic 1.5-4x20 handgun scope.

Does anybody have any experience with these scopes in a scout application? Will they work with a consistent 14-16" eye relief? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Note to the moderator: I'd love to see you ad a category for scout rifles. It kind of falls between rifle and pistol as far as optics goes.
How about a tactical/scout/patrol rifle category to cover those rifles, and optics used for CQB, competition (3-gun, etc.), tactical law enforcement, etc.? This could cover discusions on ACOGs, Elcans, Holosights, Aimpoints, etc. There is a growing use of rifles from close to medium ranges and some good optics for this application, and I think it would be a good category IMO.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 17:30
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

I have an M1A Squad Scout and I'm looking for options. My goal is to use this 80%:20% iron sights/glass. My original goal was a conventional mount and a Weaver DMS 1-4 illuminated but that went out the window. While I've never been a huge fan of the scout scope concept, I've pretty much given up on mounting a conventional scope on it. There are just waaaaay too many pitfalls if you aren't looking to mount it and leave it. And even if you do plan to leave it it's so far from the ideal arrangement that I don't want to deal with it. Trust me I've looked.

From playing around with it it looks like I need a constant 14-16" of eye relief if I use the factory scout mount. My goal is to go with low enough magnification for fast moving dangerous game like Russian Bore, and for those stuff hits the fan times when you don't have time to unlock the quick release rings. To me that means a 1-4x or a 2-7x. Here's what I'm looking at.

At the high end:
The Burris 2-7x32 handgun scope with ballistic plex reticle.

Mid-range:
The Bushnell Elite 3200 2-6x32 handgun scope.

Low-end:
The Weaver Classic 1.5-4x20 handgun scope.

Does anybody have any experience with these scopes in a scout application? Will they work with a consistent 14-16" eye relief? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Note to the moderator: I'd love to see you ad a category for scout rifles. It kind of falls between rifle and pistol as far as optics goes.
How about a tactical/scout/patrol rifle category to cover those rifles, and optics used for CQB, competition (3-gun, etc.), tactical law enforcement, etc.? This could cover discusions on ACOGs, Elcans, Holosights, Aimpoints, etc. There is a growing use of rifles from close to medium ranges and some good optics for this application, and I think it would be a good category IMO.
Never mind I've been gone a week, and I forgt the tactical sectionDown%20the%20Toilet
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I have read that article.

While I have the greatest respect for Mr Metcalfe as a gun writer, he is flat our wrong on this one (I am guessing he knows a lot more about rifles than about scopes).

ILya
......................Well what can I tell ya!....In owning 2 exactly alike, one on my revolver and the newest one now permenently on my Frontier, I have used both on my Frontier and it does exactly what he says! So while you disagree with him, my results confirm is assessment. I can take my fast focus eye piece and adjust for the best FOV, regardless of whatever the magnification is set on!............If it didn`t, I wouldn`t have bought another and traded in my 4200!


Use it if that works  for you, just watch out for the parallax error you have introduced into the system.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2008 at 20:52
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I will add to the side bar on this thread. I don't really see where Metcalf says the the fast focus adjusts the FOV. He does say that it allowed him to focus so that he could optimize eye relief. This is easy to see in a scope that has variable eye relief, a little drastic at that. There is clearly a connection between eye relief and FOV. I have never known focus to have a physical relation to it, though.
Clear me up on this if I'm wrong, please.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2008 at 03:31
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

I will add to the side bar on this thread. I don't really see where Metcalf says the the fast focus adjusts the FOV. He does say that it allowed him to focus so that he could optimize eye relief. This is easy to see in a scope that has variable eye relief, a little drastic at that. There is clearly a connection between eye relief and FOV. I have never known focus to have a physical relation to it, though.
Clear me up on this if I'm wrong, please.
.......................From that article, quoting Metcalf......"That Nikon added this to the Monarch 2.5-8x UCC handgun scope is wonderful, because the shooter can now use the fast focus eye piece ring to quickly optimize eye-relief potential at whatever magnification setting he`s using, instantly",,,,unquote............Call it optimize, adjust or whatever. That`s exactly what it does. When the magnification is changed to a new power setting and there is a thicker dark circle around the perimeter of the lens, the fast focus eye piece ring is used to eliminate that dark outer circle that is seen thru the scope, thereby OPTIMIZING the FOV!!!.........Nikon apparently added that feature recently because that`s exactly what it does!!! 
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some of the original intent of scout rifle, was developed in a time when "survival" stuff was really hot, (stored water, food, boooolits)  the gun transference itself was stolen from B square for "scout mounts" on mod 94 winchesters which weren't called that at the time, the first one I used was 40 years ago. a better caliber than 30-30 was desired, and it was conceived as a survival type weapon. fast, for personal defence, but still in the hunting catagory. as usual the history was rewritten in a military context and connotations to tactical etc were incorporated into the concept to appear to a larger group. its use even as a military scout rifle or 3-gun "gamer" is absurd in comparison to semi comparisons. it excels as a quick handling hunting rifle.

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to add- mister metcalt sometimes gets things wrong- or mixed to gether I should say. never forget a series he did on compensators for ipsc, and fixed sights on the compensator and slide.
the "change in fov" described occurs in Mk4s and is one of the complaints against the scope. in fast shooting the difference in poi isn't noticed. to market this aspect, it would seem that nikon has been taking lessons from leo.
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