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Scopes with 10+ mils per evolution

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2012 at 22:06
tucansam View Drop Down
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Gang,

A friend of mine swears by zero stops, but I can't afford most scopes (Premier, USO, etc) that have them.  I have been looking at the Weaver Tactical, Vortex Viper PST, Bushnell HDMR, etc as an alternative.

A quick run of JBM shows pretty generic data for my .308, but assuming I'd like 10 mils of elevation per rotation, I wouldn't need a zero stop because I wouldn't need to dial more than one complete revolution.  That would be easy for even my simple brain to keep track of.

So... What midrange ($800-1200) scopes are out there that offer 10 (or more) mils of adjustment per revolution?  Something with ideally 0.1mil per click...

Thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2012 at 22:47
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http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx
Just a fuzz above your price range, but it will compare to scopes costing much more. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 15:09
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+1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 15:58
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The $1300 SS 5-20x would be significantly better than any of those you listed.  They are an excellent scope and I agree not having a zero stop on a 10 mil knob is not to big of a deal.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 16:57
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I'm on a similar mission to replace my Nikon Monarch X 2.5-10x44 NP for my LR-308.  Prefer something with a 14X top end.
 
Recommendations are pretty consistent for the SS 5-20X and there are a few on the Samplelist calling my name, but curious about the Viper PST line.
 
I've read a number of reviews on this forum, as well as those on opticsthoughts
 
Consistent comment I've read states that there are clarity/contrast issues above 16X.  Some have described it as a hazy or fuzzy picture.  Is that a reasonable summary?
 
No denigrating the Viper PST line.  I have their 1-4x scope on an AR and it is exception for medium ranges, but when comparing high quality scopes, the degrees of separation can be minute.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 17:27
tucansam View Drop Down
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The Viper PST in 6-24 is on my short list, along with the Bushnell Elite Tactical (34mm tube) and the SS 5-20.

For those in the know, what makes the SS better?  Is it the best glass out of these three scopes?  I know its better than the Vortex, but what about the Bushnell?

My jury is still out on the SS's reticle... The Bushnell's reticle choices impress, and the Vortex's looks good also.

What sets the SS apart from the Vortex and the Bushnell, and specifically, how does is stack up against the Bushnell?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 17:47
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My short list too.
 
You may have already seen this, but here is a review on two of the three you have listed.  The third is Vortex's HD line:
 
 
Relevant portion is Section 1 of the review.
 
Bottom line is win win no matter which one of the three you pick with SS 5-20 coming in with the "best bang for your buck" title.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 10:54
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I have a very good friend who is a sniper on the local SWAT team.  He had the Viper PST 6-24 on his rifle.  His evaluation was it was a good scope, but the image got fuzzy above 16, but was still usable.  Long story short, once he looked through and tried the SS 5-20, the Vortex was replaced.  I looked through both of them when he was testing and there is no comparison.  The Vortex falls off at higher mag. and the SS was nothing short of damn impressive.  It was at that point I ordered a SS 5-20 for my Savage 10 PC .308.  Yes, it's a fair amount of change to spend on a scope, but after using it so far only out to 550 yds, I have ZERO buyers remorse.
 
Look around on the Sample list, or other forums for sale sections and you should be able to find one within your budget.  You can spend more, but can't buy much better unless you want to spend 3X more IMHO.
 
If you can live without illumination, you can certainly find a SS 5-20 within your budget.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 11:05
supertool73 View Drop Down
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I have read cases where the PSTs get pretty severe chromatic aberration at the higher mags.  Enough that is makes it hard to see the targets well.  I have honestly not noticed that with my SS 5-20x. 

My cousin has a PST 1-4x.  WHen he looked through my SS 1-4x his exact words were, 'holy crap that this is bright and clear, much better than my PST.  I should have saved up and got one of those."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 11:29
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Tracks with my impression of the PST 1-4x I have.  I prefer it to the Burris MTAC/XTR but it is a CQB/short range scope.  I haven't had a chance to look at the SS 1-4X, but appears the optics in the SS line are more akin to Vortex Razor HD line than the PST.
 
Given the scopes Tucansam is looking at, PST isn't a bad choice but the SS is stepping in to a much better class of scope.
 
Looks like I just talked myself in to the SS.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 18:36
tucansam View Drop Down
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I appreciate all the feedback guys... I have taken the Vortex PST off my short list (can't afford the Razor) but am still torn between the SS 5-20 and the Bushy HDMR.

If the Bushy had 10mils per revolution, I would buy it today.  I like the reticle better and I don't need illumination. 

I read the review in the above post, but how about hearing from other folks with firsthand experience?  How does the SS and the HDMR stack up to each other with regard to glass?

I have an email into Bushnell regarding possible future models with 10mils per turn, but there seems to be no one home at Bushnell. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 18:52
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Just spoke to Bushnell on the phone.

No plans for a 10mil-per-turn model anytime soon (the guy I spoke with hasn't heard any mention of this at all).

No LEO discount program for those who may be interested (since I had him on the phone, I asked).

So let me break down my pro's and con's list as I see it:

Bushy: short and heavy (works better for my rifle), awesome reticles, BUT 5mils per turn
SS: 10mils per turn, BUT reticle I'm not totally sold on

So that brings it down to glass.  I can't find either of these scopes anywhere in my area, and as much as I hate to do it, I pretty much have to rely on internet opinions, heh.  Can anyone comment on glass between the two?

I have a 10x MOA/Mil SS that I am considering selling in order to fund the purchase of the side focus mil/mil (non-HD) model, because I want mil/mil, and I need a good test/extra/standby scope.  This would at least give me the opportunity to evaluate the reticle for $400 before I dropped over a grand on the 5-20HD.

Still, I shoot a Leupold mildot at work, and while I like it just fine, I have a keen interest in the simple hash marks on most of the newer reticles.  Frankly, I'm not sure what's going on with the diamonds in the SS (why not just use dots and hash marks?). 

I do a lot of measuring and ranging in the desert, where my only keys may be a fencepost, Monster drink can, license plate, padlock on a ranch gate (small objects).  I think the hash marks would suit me much better than dots or diamonds.  I realize the SS has hash marks also, but after shooting a friend's SB PMII, I like the finer stadia.

Comments?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 20:20
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The purpose of the diamonds are to give u even more measuring tools. You have the outside width, the hieght, inside width and height. The dot inside the diamond. I spent several hours at a class tanging targets and i thought they helped and made my measurments more accurate. But to each his own
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 21:33
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http://www.opticstalk.com/uploads/298/SWFA_SSHD_5-20x50_Subtensions.jpg
 If you look close at the diamonds they really will help with ranging. Because they are .3mils tall and .2mils wide, with a fine dot in the center to help bisect the target and the diamond. This way the half can be used as either a .1mil, or .15mil for getting really particular. And the ends of the cross bars also have hashes every .mils also fore ranging. Once you get used to it, it is a very useful reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2012 at 12:10
Marine24 View Drop Down
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No personal experience, but found this review interesting (you may have already seen this)
 
 
Quote from the review specific to the glass:
 
"Quality of the glass:

In my opinion the glass on the HDMR is up there with the best of them. One thing I did notice during the reticle test was that when I used the 10mil holdovers at the bottom of the reticle, there was a little distortion. I would say that this is to be expected because it is at the edge of the lens. Other than that, this thing is crystal clear. The eye box and eye relief are extremely forgiving on this scope. In fact, I just got through mounting it on the rifle and my girlfriend looked through it and said “Wow, this is the first scope I have ever looked through and not had problems seeing the whole field of view.” So all in all, the glass is on par with the big boys on this one."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2012 at 12:43
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They are both good scopes. Personally I would rather have 10 mils per rev. The SS 5-20X50 Non Illuminated is $100 cheaper, has 10 mils per turn, and a 30mm tube (without giving up any overall adjustment range). The mounts for a 34mm on the HDMR are going to be quite a bit more than comparable 30mm mounts for the SS. I also wouldn't say the SS gives up anything to the Bushnell. Most people on here will not have looked at them side by side. Koshkin has probably spent more time with them both side by side than anyone else. And here are his thoughts from his website Opticsthoughts.com.
 
High Contrast resolution: Bushnell > SS > Razor
Low contrast resolution: SS > Razor > Bushnell
Contrast: SS > Razor > Bushnell
FOV: Razor > Bushnell > SS
Low magnification distortion: SS > Razor > Bushnell (“better” means lower distortion in this case)
Image circle (i.e. smallest black ring around the image): Bushnell > Razor > SS (all three are pretty close however)
DOF: SS = Razor > Bushnell
Low light performance overall: SS >= Razor > Bushnell
Eye position flexibility at high magnification (above 15x): SS = Razor > Bushnell
Eye position flexibility at low magnification: SS > Razor > Bushnell, but all are quite good
 
"SWFA SS 5-20x50 offers, in my opinion, the best bang for the buck here. 10 mil per turn turrets really help it stand out. Equally notably, it manages to be very full featured while keeping a 30mm tube which helps with mounting flexibility. Overall, I thought it was marginally better optically than the other two scopes here, although the Razor was so close that it could be due to scope to scope variations."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2012 at 12:59
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There is also one on the Samplelist.com site right now also.
 
SPL16489 SWFA SS 5-20x50 Tactical Rifle Scope DEMO-B
Click to view SSHD520X50MQ, Matte, Mil-Quad, 30mm
$1,099.95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2012 at 14:51
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Originally posted by tucansam tucansam wrote:

Frankly, I'm not sure what's going on with the diamonds in the SS (why not just use dots and hash marks?). 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2012 at 16:55
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For what you described, just get the SS 5-20x50 and be done with it.

As far as elevation per turn goes, I ahve had a chance to play with a variety of designs and I think somewhere around 8 - 12 mrad per turn is the sweetspot for most scopes.

Scopes with more adjustment per turn have clicks that are too closely spaced, while scopes with less adjustment per turn are more likely to require multiple turns.

For scopes with less adjustment per turn, I DEFINITELY want a zero stop (like on the Premier Light Tactical).

All that having been said, the scope that I chose to sit on my DTA in 338LM is a SWFA SS 5-20x50 in a Gen 2 Aadmount.

For the money, I find that to be the best setup I could afford.

ILya
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