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Scopes That Will Maintain Zero

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 06:40
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I understand any scope system can be bounced around to the point it will shift from zero, but I'm looking for suggestions on which ones are more likely to hold established zero with rough handling.  I have limited understanding of the actual internals of different scopes, so I don't know what factors influence stability of an established zero.  I'm looking for something with a high end of no more than 10 and not less than about 6 (higher is more desirable to me), illumination is not absolutely essential, but it's highly desirable.  I'd like to stay under $1000 if possible, but if there's a huge increase in stability with the higher end scopes, I'll keep them open as a possibility.  Any teaching about what makes the internals more solid would be appreciated as well.  I'm one of those odd left-handed people, so explanations that allow me to form a mental picture (as opposed to engineering terms and spatial concepts) are more helpful.  Pictures or diagrams are even better.  This scope may be replacing an Accupoint 3-9 on an FS200 (5.56 bullpup).  There have been no problems with the Accupoint retaining zero, it's just going on another gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 09:27
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Swarovski's internals on the z5 and z6 lines are reported to hold zero through just about anything.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 10:02
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Perhaps you may wish to check out Nightforce scopes. I like their NXS series, and they will do the job you desire. They are a bit over 1K though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 10:07
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Excellent 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 10:13
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IOR, Nikon, Burris also have a pretty good track record. Honestly though, one should always check the zero when there is even the most miniscule doubt. Too many wounded animals every year. This does nothing for our sport at least not in a positive light. Besides, it gives a great excuse to get to the range, and sharpen that skill.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 10:30
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There's almost "zero" doubt that a NF or other high-end scope will hold up. But there's not much chance of getting even a used 2.5-10X32 for less than a grand. Last one I saw advertised was $1175. In addition to the brands mentioned, Sightron and Vortex are worth considering. However, whatever brand you go with, I'd avoid their cheaper models. Every company has to cut corners somewhere.

cyborg is right on about checking zero when in doubt. And to just get out to the range anyway...helps you learn the abilities and limitations of you and your gear.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 17:50
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This is well under $1,000 and holds a zero Big Grin
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 18:17
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Most of the higher line scopes should be fine with zero.  Burris has a posi lock feature that is supposed to make it rigid once engaged so the internal components can't move.  I have it on one of my scopes and it works.  I don't use the lock because the spring force is enough to keep it in place.  I have had two burris scopes rolled and landed on by horses and it didn't move the zero.  Never had a problem with my Burris, Bushnell, Leupold, or SS scopes shifting zero under impact. They are all good to go.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2011 at 19:47
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Holding zero isn't hard, going back and and forth and up and down and then back to zero is hard. Which one are you after?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2011 at 02:43
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Thanks, guys.  Good suggestions all.  Dale, I'm looking for something that will hold zero.  I won't be doing much if any dialing after zeroing.  I'm in complete agreement that zero should be checked if there's the slightest doubt and periodically.  This scope will be in a semi-hard case in a trunk often and the primary role of the gun it's on could lead to the scope being jostled/bumped/dropped, etc.  I'm looking for internals that stand the best chance of handling that and maintaining zero when there's no opportunity to check the zero and a shot must be taken. 
 
Again, if I can have that scope for under $1000, life's good.  If stepping up to a higher price point ups the confidence factor significantly, I'm willing to look there.  If I need to trade magnification for sturdiness, e.g., an ACOG 4x, I'm willing to look there also if a higher magnification variable is nowhere in the ballpark with it, etc.
 
I'd read about a different adjustment mechanism in the Sightron S3 that leads to more reliable tracking, unsure if that also helps it hold zero better.
 
Nightforce was mentioned more than once.  I have no experience with them.  Are they exceptionally sturdy internally?
 
I'll look at each of the scopes mentioned so far, and look forward to continued input from others.
 
Thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2011 at 02:56
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Enjoyed the video on the Swaro.  I'll check into them as well.  I know this sounds ridiculous, but I'm not sure that was as much a testament to the scope's internals as to the Larue mounts (I couldn't hear the audio, so I may have missed something important), and I really don't know if being shot with pellets from a shotgun replicates what the scope I'm looking for will be going through.  It will be more of a low-level constant bumping and vibrating around in a trunk, which may place completely different demands on it, as may being dropped.  Thoughts?
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2011 at 02:59
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helo18-- do all Burris models have the posi-lock feature, or is there a particular line I need to look at?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2011 at 09:04
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nightforce uses both types of springs in their scopes. The BR models use a coil plunger system, and the nxs tacticals use a titanium leaf. Both are advertised for accurate tracking and return to zero. The problem I have with the Burris system -- why do you need a lock, doesn't the system work in the first place? NF seems to make it work (and a bunch of others).  Whether their success is do to the springs or thicker, more metal in the erector, better construction in the glass retention system are certainly questions that could be asked. My experience with a wide variety of scopes/guns left in vehicles for long periods of time, makes me think that temperature extremes are harder on the scopes than the vibration etc. Particularly variables, which on a few, models make the magnification ring almost impossible to operate sometimes.
One item that isn't covered much under the "keeps zero" topic you have brought up is the ability of second focal plane scopes to maintain zero along the entire zoom range under extreme operating conditions, and long storage intervals. If you think about it a minute, in order for a sfp to not change point of impact on magnification changes it must repeat it's mechanical movement exactly the same each time. An almost impossible task. NF uses different materials in each sleeve to help this obtain this goal. Other manufacturers may use similar or have their own propaganda. It would follow then that the more expensive scopes, in sfp would accomplish this better, scopes such as Zeiss,Nf, swaro and some others do this well. Cheaper scopes not so well. Most poi changes due to changes in magnification in sfp may go unobserved, due to the degree of precision (or lack of it) required by the shooter's needs. The take home here is---- sfp introduces a random variable in the accuracy picture, is always there, and rarely quantifiable.
So "keeping zero" becomes more complicated the deeper it goes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2011 at 10:14
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Most of the higher line scopes should be fine with zero.  Burris has a posi lock feature that is supposed to make it rigid once engaged so the internal components can't move.  I have it on one of my scopes and it works.  I don't use the lock because the spring force is enough to keep it in place.


I have found with mine when you tighten up the posi lock it actually shifts the zero.  Even when I barely get contact it shifts my zero.  Worthless feature in my opinion.  Designed to fix a supposed problem but creates another.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2011 at 23:15
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It would be interesting to know what degree of inconsistency may be present in a SFP scope, but it doesn't sound like the kind of info that would be floating around on a chart somewhere.  With the FFP scopes that are available now which can be used effectively on low power, maybe I should just start looking at them to eliminate that particular variable. 
 
Opinions/Experience:  Are Swaro, NF, USO, Zeiss, etc., going to be head and shoulders above an Accupoint for these purposes?  Although I haven't tried these upper-end scopes and may love them, I'm currently a little biased towards the tritium illumination.  I'm willing to give it up if necessary, and maybe I should just to expand my experience base, but I like to stick with things that I've had good experience with and like.
 
Anyone know if there are plans for a SS FFP 3-9 or similar with illum reticle?  Anyone wrung out the illum on the SS 1-4 under different conditions, e.g., really cold, really wet, stout recoil, etc.?  Thoughts on whether the 1-4 would serve my purposes if I'm willing to drop down the mag level?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2011 at 06:20
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Most of the higher line scopes should be fine with zero.  Burris has a posi lock feature that is supposed to make it rigid once engaged so the internal components can't move.  I have it on one of my scopes and it works.  I don't use the lock because the spring force is enough to keep it in place.  I have had two burris scopes rolled and landed on by horses and it didn't move the zero.  Never had a problem with my Burris, Bushnell, Leupold, or SS scopes shifting zero under impact. They are all good to go.


Grate Info; this is a perfect real world reason why someone would pay a little extra for their equipment. But I must say you might consider teaching your Horses to respect good optics etc. LOL
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2011 at 08:37
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NF will not have anything optically on a Trijicon.  Swaro and the high end Zeiss do, but not a lot better.  USO will be similar to Trijicon as well.

Trijicon makes a very good scope for the money.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2011 at 17:53
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I have the Trijicon but do not own a NF.... is the glass in the Trijicon as good as NF??
I have compared my 5-20X50 to my Zeiss and a Kahles and it seems to be not quite as good in low light.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2011 at 22:09
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BanditoUse an older Burris signature with a posi lock on my 375 H&H....stays on point like granite....a little fussy to achieve but worth the extra effort......believe people put too much torque on it...doesn't need much......loosen it just a bit then adjust the drift/elevation then a 1/4 to 1/2 turn should do it.....always had issues when I tried to really tighten it real snug......not necessary. As far as scopes staying on zero......you get what you pay for.......I will use a bushnell 4200 over a scope with better glass anyday if it has any question regarding holding POA.......I always had no issues with AO scopes as long as the objective stayed below 44 mm or so....the extra weight at the front end creates a unique torque under high recoil.....the side parallax scopes when they first came out were suspect.....had 2 identical Nikon monarch scopes except one was a newer sidde adjust model....guess which one held zero the best....the olderr one....For my money the finest scopes I have for the money are from Sightron(side parallax),pentax lightseeker 30 and Burris Black diamond........there are better ones but they cost more than double.........the twilite factor is only marginally less.....I can't afford NF,Doktor,Zeiss,Swar. etc.....I have over 100 rifles so I gotta be prudent.........................
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2011 at 14:04
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Originally posted by penguin6 penguin6 wrote:

It would be interesting to know what degree of inconsistency may be present in a SFP scope, but it doesn't sound like the kind of info that would be floating around on a chart somewhere.  With the FFP scopes that are available now which can be used effectively on low power, maybe I should just start looking at them to eliminate that particular variable. 
 
Opinions/Experience:  Are Swaro, NF, USO, Zeiss, etc., going to be head and shoulders above an Accupoint for these purposes?  Although I haven't tried these upper-end scopes and may love them, I'm currently a little biased towards the tritium illumination.  I'm willing to give it up if necessary, and maybe I should just to expand my experience base, but I like to stick with things that I've had good experience with and like.
 
Anyone know if there are plans for a SS FFP 3-9 or similar with illum reticle?  Anyone wrung out the illum on the SS 1-4 under different conditions, e.g., really cold, really wet, stout recoil, etc.?  Thoughts on whether the 1-4 would serve my purposes if I'm willing to drop down the mag level?
"Opinions/Experience: Are Swaro, NF, USO, Zeiss, etc., going to be head and shoulders above an Accupoint for these purposes?" Users results and confirmation would work, but then it comes down to personal choice.
 
I used to cull Deer in the late 60's and always had to deal with basics, in the 70's I got spoiled with scopes, more so mid 80's and now, aside something you might like for no other reason than you like it; I'm VERY happy with Zeiss (Linked previously) if there was a move up it could only be the Swaro.
 
Old dogs lie down, but never die.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2011 at 04:01
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I´m an old geezer but I have yet to experience a scope that doesn´t hold zero.
Have I been lucky or bought sturdy scopes or do I pamper with my gear ?
 
I have a variety of scopes; american/japanese/austrian/german (and a chinese, now sold).
The scopes are a mix of FFP/SFP, fixed/variable, they have one thing in common they all hold zero.
(even the chinese Hawke Nite-Eye did hold zero- it was thown out due to inferior optics)
 
I´m asking:
Is this "holding zero" really an issue ?
Is there a price-tag one shold exceed for mechanically good scopes ?
 
Gerry Atric
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2011 at 08:45
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I´m an old geezer but I have yet to experience a scope that doesn´t hold zero.
Have I been lucky or bought sturdy scopes or do I pamper with my gear ?



I got your share of them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2011 at 11:31
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get good rings and mounts!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2011 at 12:02
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

I´m an old geezer but I have yet to experience a scope that doesn´t hold zero.
Have I been lucky or bought sturdy scopes or do I pamper with my gear ?



I got your share of them.
 
Nice of you to sacrifice and bear my troubles Wink
 
Could you please elaborate, is there a brand, or a range of brands that have this defect and ought to be avoided ?
 
Gerry Atric
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2011 at 18:26
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I think if you ask enough, the good old bell curve shows up on all, of course it would be the "narrowness" of the bell after that. 
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