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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 14:26
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Ive been compparing scopes and I've noticed several of very similar criteria vary in weight does that reflect quality.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 14:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 15:16
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Sometimes lighter weight means expensive alloys, etc.  Sometimes heavier scopes are more durable, but not always (the lighter the scope the less it is affected by recoil).  I nearly always choose lighter.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 16:21
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According to John Barsness (who I tend to believe more than say Chuck Hawks) lighter scopes are better for handling moderate to heavy recoil issues on weapons producing such. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 19:54
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IF it is a hunting scope the lighter usually means they put more care into selecting lighter contruction.  If you find a "tactical" scope or a long range scope is heavy it does not mean it is low quality though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 19:57
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While John Barsness is certainly correct, I do not thing you can say that unequivocally.

Between two scopes built in an identical way, a larger scope will be more likely to break from recoil than a heavier one.  However, larger scopes these days are typically built with correspondingly stronger components, so the argument does not necessarily hold.

I do agree with you on the Chuck Hawks part.  He should not be writing about optics.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 20:23
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:


I do agree with you on the Chuck Hawks part.  He should not be writing about optics.

ILya


He shouldn't be writing about a lot of things he indulges in. For me, he is purely for entertainment.


Edited by tahqua - March/20/2008 at 20:25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 20:37
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:


I do agree with you on the Chuck Hawks part.  He should not be writing about optics.

ILya


He shouldn't be writing about a lot of things he indulges in. For me, he is purely for entertainment.


Quite possibly.  I just do not know enough about other things he write about to be certain.  I do know enough about optics to confidently say that he is well out of his depth there.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 21:13
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He knows nothing about rifles for defense also.  He says the AR-15 platform is bad and prefers the Ruger Mini-14 Dead
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2008 at 21:38
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He says the AR-15 platform is bad and prefers the Ruger Mini-14
really??? wow!!!
 
 
use of the scope in a specific catagory as mentioned above can determine the wt. constraints. a light wt. mt rifle begs a complementary scope, but it is nice to have it made as heavy duty as a large scale tactical.. say something like a 2.5x10 NF which weight 10 oz less than their NXS series, but is just as heavy duty. S0--- one has to remove certain catagories to compare between, and even then the over all size vs. weight would be hard to pin down.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2008 at 08:06
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Safari Club's magazine contains a series of articles by Stan Skinner that touch on on this subject.  The third installment was in the January/February 2008 issue.  He tested 11 different name brand dangerous game scopes by firing at least 60 rounds each on top of an unbraked Weatherby .460 magnum.  All of the scopes survived this test.  He noted that weight and reticle design were two important attributes of a dangerous game riflescope.
 
He concluded that "...a good quality riflescope is capable of withstanding just about any punishment you can subject it to, assuming normal use....despite this fact, an occasional defective scope slips through....From all indications, a broken scope is pretty rare, and our experience during this test reflects the norm more closely than do these tales of failures."
 
However, during the test "....we sheared off scope base screws, bent Picatinny rails, and damaged the recoil lugs on otherwise sturdy Warne scope rings.  These things invariably happened while testing the heaviest of our test scopes....Accordingly, we recommend choosing a relatively lightweight, compact dangerous game scope."
 
As to reticle design, he concluded that:  "In general, a bold design that is easy to pick out in poor light conditions is best and an illuminated reticle helps you pick out your aiming point quickly."  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2008 at 08:35
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the worst guns on scopes are NFA select fire and semi-autos, an ak 47 will trash out mounts and a scope far sooner than any rifle, except a fifty. Its the slamming of the bolt into the lock position, not the recoil. the weakest pt. in all mount set ups is the screws and why tactical mounts have recoil lugs and larger screws and why surgeon actions have the mount rail built into the rifle.

don't want to be a stick in the mud here and this is not aimed at anyone in particular, but most gun forums are set up on the principle of the poster relating their personal experience and not information from books and magazines, as the reader can at anytime do a search either on the internet or get the magazine an read for themselves. If this guidelinel is not adhered to, their gets to point where the post is not only an opinion forum for gun writers but almost useless as most gun writers spectrum of shooting activities only spans one area of expertise.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2008 at 11:47
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Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

Safari Club's magazine contains a series of articles by Stan Skinner that touch on on this subject.  The third installment was in the January/February 2008 issue.  He tested 11 different name brand dangerous game scopes by firing at least 60 rounds each on top of an unbraked Weatherby .460 magnum.  All of the scopes survived this test.  He noted that weight and reticle design were two important attributes of a dangerous game riflescope.
 
He concluded that "...a good quality riflescope is capable of withstanding just about any punishment you can subject it to, assuming normal use....despite this fact, an occasional defective scope slips through....From all indications, a broken scope is pretty rare, and our experience during this test reflects the norm more closely than do these tales of failures."
 
However, during the test "....we sheared off scope base screws, bent Picatinny rails, and damaged the recoil lugs on otherwise sturdy Warne scope rings.  These things invariably happened while testing the heaviest of our test scopes....Accordingly, we recommend choosing a relatively lightweight, compact dangerous game scope."
 
As to reticle design, he concluded that:  "In general, a bold design that is easy to pick out in poor light conditions is best and an illuminated reticle helps you pick out your aiming point quickly."  


Sounds reasonable.  A heavier scope will put more stress on the mounts.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2008 at 17:49
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Dale:
 
Safari magazine isn't found on newstands, and the article was an unusual one.  I've fired enough big rifles to have my own opinion.  Heavy recoil breaks things, and heavy scopes can unbalance a rifle for quick offhand shooting.   If you would like to test 11 scopes with 60+ rounds each of unbraked .460 Weatherby Magnum loads, we would be delighted to hear the results.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2008 at 18:00
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Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

Safari Club's magazine contains a series of articles by Stan Skinner that touch on on this subject.  The third installment was in the January/February 2008 issue.  He tested 11 different name brand dangerous game scopes by firing at least 60 rounds each on top of an unbraked Weatherby .460 magnum.  All of the scopes survived this test.  He noted that weight and reticle design were two important attributes of a dangerous game riflescope.
 
He concluded that "...a good quality riflescope is capable of withstanding just about any punishment you can subject it to, assuming normal use....despite this fact, an occasional defective scope slips through....From all indications, a broken scope is pretty rare, and our experience during this test reflects the norm more closely than do these tales of failures."
 
However, during the test "....we sheared off scope base screws, bent Picatinny rails, and damaged the recoil lugs on otherwise sturdy Warne scope rings.  These things invariably happened while testing the heaviest of our test scopes....Accordingly, we recommend choosing a relatively lightweight, compact dangerous game scope."
 
As to reticle design, he concluded that:  "In general, a bold design that is easy to pick out in poor light conditions is best and an illuminated reticle helps you pick out your aiming point quickly."  
 
I would like to know which scopes were which. I have always wished I were rich enough to afford the AMMO to see how many name brand scopes could survive a REAL shooting test!
Well, I guess I will have to be content with reading about it in the gun magazines.......(I hope Chuck Hawks ain't invited. )      --Ed        Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2008 at 18:14
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no thanks I'll stick to my fifty.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2008 at 18:15
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but please adhere to the own experience part as to posting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:32
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Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

Dale:
 
Safari magazine isn't found on newstands, and the article was an unusual one.  I've fired enough big rifles to have my own opinion.  Heavy recoil breaks things, and heavy scopes can unbalance a rifle for quick offhand shooting.   If you would like to test 11 scopes with 60+ rounds each of unbraked .460 Weatherby Magnum loads, we would be delighted to hear the results.


Would Barnes and Noble be considered a news stand or just a book store? It carries Safari mag. Big%20Grin


Edited by mike650 - March/23/2008 at 17:33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:37
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:



Sounds reasonable.  A heavier scope will put more stress on the mounts.

ILya


S&B seems like a heavy scope looking at the SWFA web site. Wonder if it was included in the tests? I've never owned one but it seems to be a popular scope with some of the larger cannons.


Edited by mike650 - March/23/2008 at 17:48
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:44
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

He says the AR-15 platform is bad and prefers the Ruger Mini-14
really??? wow!!!



Double WOW


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 18:53
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

Safari Club's magazine contains a series of articles by Stan Skinner that touch on on this subject.  The third installment was in the January/February 2008 issue.  He tested 11 different name brand dangerous game scopes by firing at least 60 rounds each on top of an unbraked Weatherby .460 magnum.  All of the scopes survived this test.  He noted that weight and reticle design were two important attributes of a dangerous game riflescope.
 
He concluded that "...a good quality riflescope is capable of withstanding just about any punishment you can subject it to, assuming normal use....despite this fact, an occasional defective scope slips through....From all indications, a broken scope is pretty rare, and our experience during this test reflects the norm more closely than do these tales of failures."
 
However, during the test "....we sheared off scope base screws, bent Picatinny rails, and damaged the recoil lugs on otherwise sturdy Warne scope rings.  These things invariably happened while testing the heaviest of our test scopes....Accordingly, we recommend choosing a relatively lightweight, compact dangerous game scope."
 
As to reticle design, he concluded that:  "In general, a bold design that is easy to pick out in poor light conditions is best and an illuminated reticle helps you pick out your aiming point quickly."  


Sounds reasonable.  A heavier scope will put more stress on the mounts.

ILya

 
Also, the large objective scopes that have to be mounted high have a greater moment of inertia around the ring base interface. The whole system, high mounts and heavy scopes are a bad combination on heavy kicking guns.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 18:53
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A heavier scope will certainly put more stress on the mounts holding all else equal.  

Though the thought that more weight in and of itself in a scope means the scope will be less durable (especially with respect to recoil) is false but unfortunately this "wive's tale" has reached mythical status.  When broad generalizations are used to compare specific items, misinformation unsues.

Where the weight is added is just as important as how much weight was added to a given scope design.  Increase wall thickness of the tube and it will be heavier.  Increase the diameter of the tube and the scope will be heavier.  Replace plastic and aluminum parts on the inside with steel and the scope will get heavier.  Add another erector spring, use a heavier duty erector springs and the scope will get heavier.  Etc, etc,...

To think any of that makes the scope less durable with respect to recoil is silly.  And yet there are those who will put a scope on a scale and think they can then tell you how it's going to be destroyed by recoil more quickly by the reading on the scale alone.  

The generalization is often true, of course, which is probably why some believe so strongly in it--noting that a little cheap brand X scope holds up better than a big giant high magnification cheap brand X scope and applying that universally.  You sure can make a scope weaker by adding weight--make it longer (often a given with higher magnification), make the ocular/objective assemblies bigger and heavier without adding strength in the middle, add features like a side focus but build them poorly, etc....

In short, it's not as simple as a number on a scale.  One needs to use his brain and find out where the weight went.  But regardless, the heavier the scope the better mounts it will require.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 18:56
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lower mass anything will have lower inertial moments--- high school physics, -- the weakness of the four mounting screws, peening of lugs on both mounts and rings have been gone over in this forum 100's of times, nothing new here.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 21:34
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but I am a little dubious about finding value in comparing scope weights. I have seen many more scopes damaged from being dropped or bumped than I have ever seen damaged from recoil. Sure if you have a very specific application that requires a scope be a specific weight then give it some consideration, other than that, the variances don't seem to make enough difference to really worry about.

While it is true that heavier scopes can be hard mounts, the answer is easy... use durable mounts. My two cents is use decent grade military style mounts and you won't have a problem. If you can't use military style mounts, then use all steel mounts with largest diameter mounting screws you can find and you shouldn't have any problems.

Other helpful tricks are with all else being equal pick the mount with the largest bearing/friction surface (widest width) and use a coating of loctite on all bearing/friction surfaces.
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