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Scope used on M-14

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 13:36
DieselDevilDog View Drop Down
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Hello All,
We had a scope on our CIA issued M-14's in 1965 in Chu Lai.  Would anyone know what type this was?
 
thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 13:46
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Welcome to the OT!
 
Sorry I can't help with that answer as I was in the Navy[9-65/12-69] we only used M1 Garand & Thomson's.If no one can remember[after all, we are all over 60 now that were involved with that little squirmish],you might want to call Camp Perry if anyone would know, it would be them.........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 13:51
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Thanks,
Diesel
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 14:12
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I'd ask this question over at Sniper's Hide. Bet they would know.....Good luck!  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 14:17
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I believe at that time it was called the XM-21, which was an accurized M-14 with a 3-9x40 Redfield scope with a ballistic cam that changed with the power setting. The cross hairs had stadia lines on them that were set so that they bracketed a average size human torso at the correct power setting and camed the cross hairs to the correct range. Find your target, adjust the power ring so that the stadia lines bracketted the torso (this camed the cross hairs to the correct range up to 900yds), take the shot.
Leatherwood eventually bought the rights to the setup and produced the scopes for the military.
Does this sound like the system you used?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 16:44
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I keep trying to post on this thread, but I get the following warning:
 
"Error 007 :  Insufficient clearance to engage.  System protocol violation."
 
Did this post show up?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 16:46
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Warning: System Protocol Violation
Insufficient clearance to engage...


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 16:52
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Don't believe the XM-21 came into use until 1968. Never heard of "CIA" issued scoped M14s. Have to check some references tonight... After 27 yrs of mil service I suffer often from CRS.
 
OS
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 16:55
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Welcome, Soldier.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 17:43
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I wasn't born yet, so I can't say much with authority on the matter.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 18:16
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

I wasn't born yet, so I can't say much with authority on the matter.
 
Pup Tenter Cool --- I was born in 56.  Dad was OSI in Nam unfortunately he passed away a few years ago and  a lot of Top Secret Info went to the grave with him.  I am pretty sure the vietnam issued M14's  had the 3X9 power Automatic ranging telescope, ART,
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 18:57
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I LOVE that website.....Just logged in again. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2012 at 21:23
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Ahh to be 56 again,just saying WES Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2012 at 09:31
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I think that was it!  Thanks brother.  It was still in experimental stage.  I remember it was pretty easy to target. 
 
Diesel
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2012 at 10:14
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Perhaps like this?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2012 at 12:09
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I checked 2 Army Field Manuals, FM 23-8, dated 1974, and TC 23-14, dated 1969 about the ART scope, and neither mentioned a brand of course, but said that the scope was a high quality commercial scope. My research is 30+ years old, and from memory so I may have been mistaken about the brands of scope used for the ART system, and which order they came in.
The 1969 manual is a sniper training manual, and the weapon used is the M-21 with the ART scope. FM 23-8 is mentioned in this manual as well, so earlier issues than 1974 had to exhist, but I do not know if the M-21 was mentioned in them. There is a section on the M-21 system in the 1974 manual.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 15:18
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I cannot find anything to support fielding of the XM21 or the ART-TEL before 1969. FWIW the old Redfield based ART-TEL is now commonly referred to as the ART I in the sniper community. I was initially issued an M21 (marked XM21) in 1978. It came with both an ART I and an ART II. I shot the ART I until a lens loosened forcing me to change to the ART II. When I did, I lock-tited the mount both to the receiver (front and rear) and the two-piece rear screw. Once done it held a pretty reliable zero but I never liked the pivoting (camming) mount. I was glad to see it go when the M24 arrived in October 1988. We did keep them for use without the scopes as observer/back-up rifles. About the same time the M24 was being developed, 10th Special Forces Group was developing their so-called XM-25. That gun was heavier and more clumbsy than the M24, hardly suited to close-quarter battle if a sniper/observer team needed to get their rears out of a jam. Think about this for a moment; two guys walking around with 12lb plus rifles equipped with 10X scopes who encounter an armed threat at 15 meters. Think they are trained to "snap-shoot" those rifles? The answer is obviously "Not!". I and a friend developed a training plan to do this using the quick-kill techniques developed by McDaniel but only oriented to the sniper. We expected the observer to carry a rack-grade M14/M16/M4 or a flat-top M16 with a Mil-Dot scope having magnification of less than 6x. The rational was to give the observer a weapon that he could also use to give the sniper sight corrections while still being able to engage himself is required.
FWIW: The M21 was very sensitive to care and despite some of the comments on M14.com it was not a reliable system. If you want one to hang on the wall and take to the range once in awhile they can be fun. Need a serious gun look elsewhere. For a thorough run-thru on M14 history take a look at Clinton Ezell's book "The Great Rifle Controversy". In this book he describes the production problems and failures that led to the halt of M14 rifle production.
 
OS.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 16:11
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DieselDevilDog,
 
What unit were you with at Chu Lai when they issued these rifles?
 
OS
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/24/2012 at 10:52
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[QUOTE=Old Soldier] About the same time the M24 was being developed, 10th Special Forces Group was developing their so-called XM-25. That gun was heavier and more clumbsy than the M24, hardly suited to close-quarter battle if a sniper/observer team needed to get their rears out of a jam. Think about this for a moment; two guys walking around with 12lb plus rifles equipped with 10X scopes who encounter an armed threat at 15 meters. QUOTE]

The sniper teams in my unit in the Marines, the sniper had an M-40 & 45, the observer had an M-16. Some observers carried a 45 too at their discretion.

0331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2012 at 10:37
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BTT
 
DieselDevilDog,
 
What unit were you with at Chu Lai when they issued these rifles?
 
OS
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2012 at 13:40
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Old Soldier,

Don't hold your breath, ninjas never post in the same place twice - or 4 times.

If I had a nickle for every time someone told me they were a Marine sniper or a SEAL or  were attached to some blackk ops team, I'd have many, many nickles.

The guys who do the most tend to talk the least.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2012 at 14:13
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+1 RC
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