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Scope to trust.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2008 at 22:34
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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It seems as though I have been playing round-robin with scopes lately. The crux of the issue:

New scopes by respected American Maker  - lets call them "B"

variable power hunting scope # 1.
variable power hunting/target scope #2.

The new #1 is installed on a new Benelli R-1 - best groups 3-4 inches at 100 yd - multiple loads and revised mounts later -  and too much time on the internet - I sell the rifle - reassured that they just do not have a reputation for accuracy. I install #1 on a new Thompson ICON and can barely get it on paper. Federal Gold match rounds group at best 4-5 inches at 100 y. Then I switch to  an old leo I had in the box and suddenly there is a group 1 moa or less. Needless to say I get upset that I traded a probably good rifle off - at a loss - without checking it against  another glass. Bucky Trusted WAY TOO MUCH IN THE HYPED REPUTATION.

LESSON#1 do not forget to check all of your assumptions before you sell.

The new #2 was placed in Burris Signature rings on top of a .308 PSS . After 12 years I know how this rifle shoots and what to feed it. Things seemed to start out fine - then my groups started to open up - 1.5- 2. 5 inches. I had bought a Super Sniper  16x -  & after mounting it my groups again went to sub MOA . Saturday (after a sighter) I shot a 5 rd group of 0.7 inch with the identical loads and the SS.

At 100 yards my shooting skill and difference in weather should not change that much. I do not believe that this scope (# 2 from the same mnf) will hold sub MOA. I do not know how the "lifetime warranty" addresses these kinds of issues - but I guess I am about to find out. Right now I will not buy another one and wonder how much time at the bench and ammo I will have to expend to check them out again - after they come back from "B" .

There is no trust now.

Lesson # 2 Consider a scope that will be a reference for performance - to check assumptions against. Consider the SS.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 04:25
8shots View Drop Down
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Why stop there? Name and shame.
BlackSwan, you are correct, one must check all the variables before making a decision. A friend had all the good stuff (custom rifle etc), which could not shoot for anything. After checking diff scopes, loads etc we got to the mounts. Turned out they were made from pewter or some stuff. They were actually buckling with the recoil. We replaced them with good steel mounts and he now shoots 1 inch groups.


Edited by 8shots - April/17/2008 at 08:43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 07:38
martin3175 View Drop Down
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That's a good reminder to check optics and mounts before selling off a suspect rifle...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 08:30
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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I guess I am concerned that the Burris people will not appreciate that the scopes are not performing. The most expensive one  (#2)is a BlackDiamond 6-32 from SWFA. The scope #1 is a Fullfield II 4.5- 14 from Sportsmen's Ho- House.

I use Burris Signature rings with inserts, torque the bases if needed to 35 inch /lbs. mount the scope and tighten the ring screws to 25 inch /lbs. I am sure the scopes are not moving under recoil.
The second scope I most recently mounted on an AR -15 with an Alexander Arms 6.5 Grendel upper - I do not know this rifle performs yet -   but it looks like I am going to have to mount the SS  16X  onto it to find out. The Black Diamond was all over the place.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 08:42
8shots View Drop Down
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The idea of forums is for like-minded people to help one another. An honest feedback, without bashing the manufacturer, is in my opinion what this forum is all about. I am sure (or hope) that the manufacturer will also want to know about any problems so that they can correct it. Without this type of feedback the consumer will just gravitate towards other products, and the manufacturer will never know why.
Thanks for the feedback.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 09:16
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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also welcome-- it is doubtful the benelli would have reached the level of accuracy you desired as neck sizing and other methods of reloading usually don't work in autoloaders. Hindsight is always great, but not really much help.

send the scopes in with an explanation of the problem.

glad to hear the PSS is still shooting like that-- use this a a reference to test all scopes.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 22:32
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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If I want to move a scope around among several rifles - it looks like it may be a benefit - if a bit  of cash to convert all of the bases to high quality picatinny style, put QR rings on the reference scope and not do so much torquing of screws etc.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 03:01
8shots View Drop Down
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I tried that and it is a bit of a mission. The scope allways have to be re-zeroed for the new rifle. You can reference the dials, but you still need to shoot it to know for sure. After a while the novelty gets a bit thin and the scope is allways on the wrong rifle.
Rather spend the money on a dedicated scope for each rifle. Even buy used scopes if $$$ is an issue.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 08:41
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the problem arises with the advent of a new scope or new gun. then a known variable must be tested against the new product to remove all doubt. no other way around it. the upside is that your only testing for accuracy in tracking or absolute accuracy in the rifle, to the scope does not need to be zerod. and the rifle is only being tested for grouping.  problem areas show up (usually) within 10 rds. or at least point in different directions in the decision chain.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 14:29
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Why stop there? Name and shame.
BlackSwan, you are correct, one must check all the variables before making a decision. A friend had all the good stuff (custom rifle etc), which could not shoot for anything. After checking diff scopes, loads etc we got to the mounts. Turned out they were made from pewter or some stuff. They were actually buckling with the recoil. We replaced them with good steel mounts and he now shoots 1 inch groups.
 
  Yep ... Yep .... I preach that here at home all the time .... good mounts are very critical .
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 16:43
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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Well just sent scope #1 to Burris - does anyone know how they evaluate accuracy / repeatability in a scope shop?
I visualize a solid machine mount with some kind of reticle reference system - then a routine that would involve some kind of virtual recoil and an internal / referenced "Box Test"  ?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2008 at 02:15
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You can trust you're life on an ACOG... it has never let me down

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2008 at 11:26
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 Truthfully never trust any scope totally if your life may be on the line or you are going on an expensive hunting trip . Always take a backup ... even if it's below what you would normally use . Even the best of any of them may fail for some dumb reason .

Edited by mercenary1947 - May/16/2008 at 11:27
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