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Scope Options for New .223

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 00:48
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First off, what a great site! As someone that has shot/hunted with bows & shotguns without the need for optics, this place has helped make sense out of the features and provided a wealth of experience for narrowing down the choices.

 

What I have is a Kel-Tec SU-16C I picked up recently that I would like to fit with optics for shooting out to 450yds or so. I'll be doing a good amount of paper punching, but I'd also like to keep the setup versatile enough to use it for hunting (mostly hogs). With that in mind, I've been looking at variable power scopes in the 3-9X range, but I'm going off "book knowledge" rather than experience, so I'm open to advice.

 

As far as the budget goes, most of the scopes I've been looking at have been in the range of $200-325, but I'm open to some adjustment for a durable, quality scope that is the right fit for the rifle. On that note, size & weight are a factor given the size of the rifle, so I am trying to stay at or under a 42mm objective, 12.5" overall length, and a weight of 15oz.

 

Here's a few that I have been looking at:
Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9x40 + Lowest price, Firefly reticule option; - not fully coated
Burris Fullfield II 3-9x40 + Lower-end pricewise, nice reticule options; - opinions vary
Burris Short Mag 3-9x32 + Nice profile; - seems to be no better or worse than the FF II at a higher price & reduced FOV
Nikon Monarch UCC 3-9x40 + BDC reticule option, well regarded; - Upper end pricewise
Weaver Grand Slam 3-10x40 + Seems to be one of the favorites for the price; - duplex reticule only
Sightron SII Series + Lots of options (size, magnification, & reticules), mid-range price; - don't know much about them


Any advice or experience with these (or suggestions on others I left off the list) would be appreciated.


FWIW, I also looked at the Burris Signature Select & Bushnell Elite 4200 scopes since they are so highly regarded here in the sub-$500 range, but they are longer and heavier than what will fit well on the rifle.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 01:55
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Welcome to The OT!!

 

I've never seen your rifle before. Looks wild!!

 

I like your list of scopes. The only one I would drop would be the Bushnell 3200. 

 

Out of that group, I'd go with the Monarch or the SII.

Optics quality will be best with those two, in my opinion. 

 

What's the difference in W/E adjustments between the two?? Meaning, which one has more??

I'm not sure.

 

Have you considered a Super Sniper?? Or are you stuck on a variable??

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 04:23
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I have to agree with dropping the Bushnell 3200 elite.  I love the 4200 Elite I think it is a wonderful scope but the 3200 does not seem up to the others (in optical performance) as the others listed.

 

If it was me, I'd go for the Weaver Grand slam I think it's just as nice as the Nikon Monarch and better than the Burris listings.  I have not used or looked through a Sightron but they do come highly recommended.

 

I was very very impresse when I looked through the Weaver G/S very nice scope.  A friend of mine put one on his Remington .223 for varmit hunitng and is really pleased with it.

 

AC

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 08:30
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Welcome!  You've put together (in my opinion) a resonable, well thought out group to choose from.  I'll echo other replies in suggesting that the Bushnell 3200 be the first to go.  I'd probably eliminate the Burris Short Mag as well.  I'd give very strong consideration to the Nikon Monarch you've presented as I think it has the best glass out of the group.  After that, the Sightron SII follows closely behind.  To me, the others are pretty much mirror images of each other with different brand names...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 09:16
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bushnell elite 4200 in 3-9x40mm is 260$ and the size you are looking for. In my opinion that is the best deal on a 3-9x40 at under 300$. <insert to stop cheapstick from telling us that is the zeiss conquest.

 

you made a good choice, I like the rifle, especially how light it is. If I had three I could juggle them, if I knew how to juggle. The only thing I don't like the is the polymer rail, my advice is to stick with aluminum rings for the scope. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 13:17
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Thanks everyone. I wasn't sold on the Bushnell 3200, and your comments pretty much confirmed my gut feeling on them. The Burris FF II came reccomended from a friend and I see a lot of comments about good glass quality, but also some folks who aren't that impressed with them. I'll leave them on the list for now as a "value" option, but I'm dropping the Short Mag, mainly due to the limited FOV and pricepoint.

 

Right now, I'm leaning towards the Monarch and SII, primarily because I'd like a BDC reticle so I can make adjustments on the fly...a carry-over from shooting bows. But I'm not ruling out the Grand Slam or the Elite 4200 Anthony pointed out either. If anyone has used BDC reticles (mildot, Ballistic Plex, etc), I'd love to hear your opinions on them.

 

cheaptrick - You have to love a .223 that folds up and fits into a Camelbak HAWG  I really liked what I saw in the Monarch and SII as well. As far as W/E goes, the SII 3-9x42 is listed at 95 MOA, vs. 55 MOA for the Monarch. There are a few other SII models I'm also eyeing, but all of them have at least a marginal lead over the Monarch for adjustments. And I see a lot of folks giving high marks to the Super Sniper scopes, but my thinking is the variable power would be more versitile for a target/hunting rifle. Am I off here, or is it just a personal preference?

 

Anthony - Thanks for the heads up on the 3-9x40 4200. I totally missed it since it isn't in Bushnell's current lineup. I've added it to the list of considerations, but I'm assuming this is an older model that hasn't completely made it's way off the retail shelves yet. Besides the magnification range, do you know if there is anything significantly different between this one and the current models?

 

The polymer rail shouldn't be a problem either. Even if it gets marred up, one good thing about Kel-Tec is that their customer service is first rate. If anything goes wrong (short of problems from modifying parts), they fix it with no questions asked...for life. But the Weaver rings I'm looking at have aluminum bottoms. They certainly aren't the best, but they are see through. I'll probably get blasted for that choice, but I want to keep the iron sights available for hog hunts...for the same reason I carry a sidearm when hunting them with bows.

 

Thanks again to everyone for all the input. I'll be sure to put up some pics of the rifle, and the results, after I get it all put together and working.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 17:52
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The SS is a LOT of scope for $300.

I think everyone should own at least one....

The more I shoot mine, the more I like it.

 

A variable does offer you more options though.

Nothing wrong with your thinking.... 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 18:31
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With the new Bushnell Elite 4200 3-9x40 with the Ballistic plex and rainguard priced at $260,

I feel that it is a no contest on features and glass on a 3-9 scope anywhere on the planet at

this price range.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2006 at 20:02
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Do you have a link to a site carrying the Elite 4200 with a BDC reticle? If so, that would pretty much wrap things up, but the only ones I'm finding are the 6-24x40 varmit scopes.

 

Also, are the 3-9X 4200's new to the lineup? Call it a dumb observation from someone just getting familiar with optics, but it seems scopes with better construction/newer technology have a wider magnification range, not less.

 

cheaptrick - Thanks for the advice on the SS scopes. I've seen nothing but good things about them, but for better or worse, I'm going to try a variable scope the first time out. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if I ate those words after a few months...and it certainly wouldn't be the first time I've upgraded accessories after using a piece of equipment for a while

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2006 at 10:53
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It is a brand new model, it does not look like SWFA stocks this item.

You can pick it up on ebay for $260 from a good seller, just type in Elite

4200 in the search engine and then go into ebay stores ounce all of your

results have shown,then click on price and it will sort all 4200 items by price

and you will see it for around $260. SWFA has the Duplex model for $260

you can give them a call to see if the Ballistic plex is available.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2006 at 14:09
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I think we are on the wrong path here and this is why. A 3-9x40 is ideal for a bolt gun for hunting at say 50 to 600 yds but a semi auto usually does not group as tight as a good bolt gun. This particular rifle is designed to be light and fast and pack easily and I think that all you really need is a fixed 2x or a 1.5 to ? variable that is a small compact scope. Even a 2-7x is significantly more compact than a 3-9X40. As for brand I like Leupold and Nikon but would consider a Sightron SII. I have a 1x Burris that is a good scope but I strongly do not recommend the Burris Short Mag 3-9 as it is a poor design with very critical eye relief.  I typically like high power scopes but I think that this rifle will likely endure some more rugged treatment and so I think a 1.5 to ? or 2x to ? or  a low power fixed power scope  would be the best choice. Definately something smaller in profile than a 3-9x40

LEU58450 Leupold 2.5x20 FX-II Ultralight Riflescope Leupold 2.5x20 FX-II Ultralight Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Wide Duplex
  • 1"
  • Multi-Coat 4 Lens System
SWFA: $269.95
More Info... Buy Now

6515 Nikon 2-7x32 Monarch UCC Riflescope Nikon 2-7x32 Monarch UCC Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Nikoplex
  • 1"
SWFA: $289.95
More Info... Buy Now

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2006 at 01:08
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Well, it's been a long week here in the sunshine state with big blow from Ernesto that wasn't, but I managed to find some time between putting up & taking down storm shutters and preparing for another USAR deployment (on top of the usual stuff) to take in everyone's advice and do some more research. I stopped off at my local smith this week to drop off a shotgun for some work and he had a SU-16 in stock, so I spent some time looking at different scopes (through them and how the profile looked on the gun). The result is I agree with Urimaginaryfrnd that compact scopes around 8" or so had an 'ideal' look and feel, but a 10-12" scope wasn't too oversized for the rifle either. For my personal preference on magnification, I still think a variable is the way to go, but again, I agree that 6-7x is more than sufficient. With this in mind, I've adjusted the short list with models I feel are more suitable for this setup

 

Burris Fullfield II 2-7x35 Ballistic Plex - great price and a BDC reticle
Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x36 - Thrown in because I can pick one up brand new in the box for $400 from a friend, and it has the Boone & Crocket BDC reticle
Other Considerations - I haven't "totally" ruled out the Sightron SII Compact 2.5-10x32 and Nikon Monarch UCC 2-7x32. They are in between the two above pricewise, have great optics, and would be a good fit as far as length and weight are concerned, but neither has a BDC reticle option...too bad, if either did I'd be tracking the shipment instead of posting right now.

 

From everything I've read, all four of these scopes are good, with the optics in the Burris FF II falling a notch below the rest. I am all but settled on a BDC reticle and the Burris hits a great price point, but still, I have to wonder if the Leupold at 2-1/2 times the cost of the Burris holds something to make it worth the money. The primary questions I have about the Burris compared to the Leupold are zero drift, low light performance, how critical eye relief is, durability, and precision in adjustments. In other words, is the Leupold worth it at that price or is half the difference still going towards those full page ads?

 

The info and feedback here has been great...thanks again.

 

koshkin - If you catch this thread, I noticed that you have a SU-16 fitted with the 2-7x36 Burris FF II, so I'd love to hear your opinion...plus I know you have used a lot of the Sightrons.

 

SVD666 - I called Bushnell about the ballistic reticle on the 3-9x40 4200 Elite and they are releasing one. A few dealers with good connections may have them, but Bushnell has not assigned a part number to them yet. Beyond that, I also found that the ballistic reticle is just a different style (an inverted triangle with a few hash marks below it), not a bullet drop compensating reticle. All in all, I dropped them off the list due to their length, but I appreciate the heads up just the same.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2006 at 15:10
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Yep, I've got a SU-16 with a FFII 2-7x35.  It works quite well, IMO.

One thing to consider for the SU is that the built in rail is pretty short, so a scope with a long eye relief or a scope with a long tube may not be easily mountable without offset rings/additional rails/etc.  That rules out  Burris Short Mag scopes (which I generally like; Urimaginaryfrnd's visceral hatred of those scopes is well documented, but I never had problems with mine), Leupold Ultralights, etc.

That is something I was trying to avoid (to keep it simple and to keep the weight of the setup down), so I settled on a fairly compact scope with not too long of an eye relief.  The Leupold you mention is probably not easily mountable due to longer eye relief on it.  It also depends on how you hold your rifle of course and how big you are.  I am 6'0' 250lbs and the length of the rail was an issue.

The rifle is very light so I really wanted to make sure that I do not upset the balance of it too much. 

While this is not a bench gun, it is fairly accurate and shoots Black Hills 60gr softpoints into about 1.5" at 100 yards (now that the trigger is broken in).  The reason I picked 60gr ammo is that it is a good compromise weight and also due to Black Hills offering an inexpensive softpoint and 60gr Partition that shoot to the same POI in my gun.  I have also fired a bunch of other ammo ranging grom 45gr to 75 gr through it and it was between 1.5" and 2.5" at 100 yards off the bench.

I picked the 2-7x35 mostly because of its light weight, decent optics and BPlex reticle (I like to shoot at plates that are a bit further out).  However, I think I will have also have a FFII 1.75-5x20 with 3P#4 sighted in for it.  BPlex is pretty nice but it 3P#4 is sufficiently thicker to allow for faster target acquisition.

The scopes I would suggest you look at are the two FFIIs above, Weaver Grand Slam 1.75-5x32, Sightron S2 2.5-7x32 and 2.5-10x32, Nikon Monarch 2-7x32.

IMO, most 3-9x40 scopes are too big for this gun and can offer mounting problems.

Also, if you plan to keep the rear sight on the rifle, make sure your rings are at least 0.5" high.  I used Warne Maxima QD, high rings and they are of just the right heigt.

ILya






Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2006 at 22:35
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Thanks for the response koshkin. Great info and I appreciate pics of the SU-16 with a FF II mounted on it...nice looking combination! We're fairly close in size (6'0" & 220), so I would imagine running into similar eye relief issues. And I see what you mean about the peep sight clearance. I have two sets of see-through rings I'm going to try and make work (3/4" & 1" height) so the clearance won't be a problem, but in the event they don't work out I've already been eyeing the Warne QD's...nice to know which size I'll need.


With all the information I have at this point (plus seeing koshkin's photos), I'm going to go with the Burris FF II 2-7x35 with the BDC reticle. It fits the rifle, has all the features I'm looking for, and I don't see how I can go wrong at this price. This won't be the last scope I buy, but I think it's the perfect one to start out with to find what my personal preferences are, as well as what works and what doesn't.


I'll post a pics or two as soon as I get it all set up. Thanks again to everyone for the info posted here and elsewhere in the forums...it was truly a tremendous help.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2006 at 04:09
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Cool rifle, koshkin.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2006 at 14:48
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Thanks cheaptrick.  It is a nice little rifle and it takes AR-15 magazines.  The gas system is pretty much copied from Galil/AK and the bolt is from an AR.  So far, I've had exactly zero malfunctions.  I've changed the sights on it to the bravo model (from a later SU-16B variant) and now it takes AR-15 front posts.

FL Firefighter, I would cauion you against using overly tall rings.  The buttstock is setup for use with iron sights, so with very high rings it is hard to get a good cheekweld.  If you attacj a cheek pad, it is hard to use iron sights.  That's why I went with the lowest rings that still allow the scope tube to clear the rear sight.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2006 at 15:50
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

  So far, I've had exactly zero malfunctions

 

Gotta love that!! 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2006 at 16:55
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

  So far, I've had exactly zero malfunctions

 

Gotta love that!! 

 

 



You bet.

I've heard of some early SU-16s having firing pin problems (taken care of by Kel-tec) and of having problems with older Wolf lacquered ammo.

I mostly use decent ammo (mostly because I do not shoot enough for the price to be an issue) and it works like a charm.

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2006 at 08:56
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Set it up just like Koshkin's rifle and you should be alright. For that rifle I really think the Leupold is more money than you need to spend,if it was a highly accurate bolt gun I'd spend the extra for the leupold or the monarch 2-7.  I do like the balistic plex, bdc, b&c etc reticles that can be used for known hold over points. Should you find yourself with a regular duplex type scope you can use the upper point where the cross hair goes from wide to narrow as a known point,the actual center "X" as another and the lower point where the cross hair goes from narrow to wide line as another known point and work on the range to determine what distances they represent. I think you are safe with the FFII and I would be really cautious of the shortmag 2-7 and entirelly avoid the shortmag 3-9, look at them and make an educated decision. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2006 at 11:53
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I put both rings on the pic rail to get a rough feel and the 1" height rings are definitely out, but the 3/4" rings might work. It's going to be close, but I'll know as soon as I get the scope mounted. I'd prefer to be able to instantly switch to iron sights, but not at the cost of accuracy or a solid solid scope mount. I'll try them first, and go with the Warne rings if they don't work out...in a pinch at close range, barrel-sighting is always an option.

 

What I didn't like about the short mags was that for a $100 premium you got a slightly shorter scope with a reduced FOV. Even before Urimaginaryfrnd's comments, I was leaning against them for those reasons. His comments were just the final nail in the coffin.

 

And FWIW, I spoke with Kel-Tec about steel lacquered ammo, and they do not recommend using it in SU-16's that do not have chrome lined chambers & barrels...which are all but the BATFE regulated "Delta" models. The only problems I've had with the rifle were pretty simple to fix. (1) The deflecting operating handle was causing occasional stovepipes...Kel-Tec sent a standard operating handle for free. (2) I got pretty regular "failure to extract" malfunctions when I first got the rifle regardless of ammo used...Kel-Tec offered to fix the problem at the factory for free, but I purchased a Bushmaster extractor so I didn't have to send the rifle back. Since making those two minor modifications, I haven't had one malfunction in several thousand rounds and this is one rifle I will be keeping.

 

I'm off to buy a scope...thanks again for all the help fellas

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2006 at 13:49
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let us know how it goes when the scope gets there.

I have had very positive experience with Kel-tec customer service whenever I had a question.  I am glad to hear that they were helpful to you also.

As far as instantly switching to iron sights goes, I was never comfortable with see through rings, so QD rings are the next best thing.  Warne rings that I have seem to come back to zero quite well.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2006 at 22:02
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Will do...and per your advice I added the Warne QD rings to the order. Not that I didn't want to try and make the see-through rings work, but I got to thinking about what I was going to do with the scope when cleaning the rifle. Lens caps withstanding, I can't believe getting coated lenses around gun cleaning solvents is a good thing...

despite our best laid efforts, Murphy is usually hiding just around the corner 

 

And I can't agree more on Kel-Tec customer service...always helpful and they are willing to do whatever it takes to fix the problem. A few other unnamed companies could, and should, take lessons from these folks.

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