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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2010 at 16:13
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I have been a lurker here for some time now trying to figure things out.  But I have to say there is so mush and it gets confusing really quickly. 
I recently bought a Savage .308 with the acutriger and acustock and am looking for a scope to try my hand at some mid to long range shooting.  I will only be target shooting and not hunting.  I am not wanting to spend a ton of money as it is a new hobby I am looking at, and dont know alot about it except it can be really expensive.
Is the Leatherwood Leatherwood 6-24x50 Camputer ART M-1200 Rifle Scope any good?  I was thinking that the bdc would be an easy way to jump in and be able to hit stuff further out.  I did a search and didnt find anything on it.  That being said I have seen so much about quality of glass and such, and spend more money now and not have to re buy again later.  Also that a bigger scope isnt better.  With all of this and so many options out there it gets frustrating really quick.  I also was looking at the Vortex 6-24x50 Viper PST 30mm Rifle Scope in the ffp reticle because there seemed to be alot of hype about it supposed to be a good optic and I have read about the ffp being better then the sfp on a multi power scope.  Also I see hype about it but no actual reviews of the scope.  However it is alot of money to start out with at $900 and I dont even know how to use the mil dot and such to figure out the range and such.  Is it going to be hard to learn this stuff on my own with this type of scope?  would a product like this http://www.shooterready.com/lrs.html be a help?
Please offer up any advice on this stuff as the more I read the more and more I get confused.
Thanks in advance:
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2010 at 16:17
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Get a 10x SWFA SS scope for $300.  It will be a good starting scope and may be all you ever need.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2010 at 16:22
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The SS 10X Like ST would be a good start or even the Vortex Crossfire for $99 would be a decent start point.  It would be an economical way to see if you like it and then if you did upgrade to some serious glass.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2010 at 17:10
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Mid to long-range target shooting only? Then you can save some bucks going with the SS 10X. The only drawback is that you can't get it with matching mil turrets (only the HD version has that or the SS 3-9). But that's not that big of a deal for this sort of shooting and something to learn on. I wouldn't consider anything else inexpensive. You have enough variables to deal with out past 400-500 yards to worry about whether your scope is tracking well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2010 at 17:18
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SVT  you've got a 10x Bushnell 3200, would you say it's in the same ball park as the regular 10x SS ??


I realize that the SS has a lot more adjustment, but clarity wise are they pretty close or is the SS a lot better?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2010 at 18:23
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I don't have the Bushy, but most reports say the S.S. 10x is better, and it has an adjustable objective,too. Which comes in handy when shooting at longer ranges.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2010 at 19:12
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Originally posted by neilbilly neilbilly wrote:

SVT  you've got a 10x Bushnell 3200, would you say it's in the same ball park as the regular 10x SS ??


I realize that the SS has a lot more adjustment, but clarity wise are they pretty close or is the SS a lot better?

 
I did have it for a while, just traded it in....As far as comparing the two. The SS outperformed the Elite in every aspect.  Its not that the Elites not a good scope for the price but you get a better scope in the SS.  Which is one reason why i traded it in. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 08:44
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OK I see no explinataions on why to get the 10x scope.  Please help me here.  are the other scopes crap?  Does the variable power not help with the longer range shots?  I really appreciate the input but with out the reasoning behind it I am just that much more confused.  My thinking is that for the longer range shots the higher power magnification would be a definate plus.  Is this not so?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 08:56
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With a fixed you have less to worry about.  You also have a much more durable scope and is user friendly.  Several folks on here engage targets at 1000yds with a fixed 10, is it the best, to some yes, to others no. The higher power you go to the more movement you will see from simple things like breathing and heartbeat.  The 10x is just a good starting point to find out if you enjoy it and want to invest in higher end optics, not saying you have to but you won't break the bank on something your not sure on yet.
 
One thing to know about optics (for the most part) is you get what you pay for.  a cheaper scope that has a high power top end will 9 times out of 10 be very blurry and un-usable at that high power because of cheaper glass.  
 
The SS is an exception to the rule, the cost is low because theres not middleman and crap like that to worry with. The wonderful folks at SWFA own that scope and it goes from manufacture to them to the consumer so the cost is lower. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 09:25
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Ok that clears things up.  As stated im new and very uneducated on optics.  So is it worth getting the SWFA SS All Variable Power Advanced Shooter Kit to go along with the 10x SS?  Also I see there is a $100.00 difference in the SS 10x depending on a side focus or rear focus.  What are the benefits or drawbacks of either?  The rifle I bought already has a one piece Leupold mount and Leupold rings so I should be set there.  I was also seeing people talk about Kenton knobs.  For a noob such as myself would these be worth getting.  (I know I ask alot, but there is just so many options out there.  I want to do this right the first time instead of buying crap or the wrong equipment, and coming away from the sport with bad feeling when it was my fault for making bad decisions)
As always thanks in advance for your patience with me and the knowledge that you share.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 09:38
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The SS scopes are 30mm tubes are your rings for 30mm scopes or 1 inch? 

They have good knobs on them already, IMO I would say not to worry about the Kenton's.

As far as side vs rear, that is personal preference.  I have both and think the rear is just as good, plus for lefty's it works better.  Personally I would buy the rear focus and spend the other $100 on ammo or something else you need. 

Personally I do not like the ARD on the original SS scopes.  It makes the image very very dark and greatly reduces image quality as well.  Plus for a non military why does one really need to worry about the scope glaring?  I shot my ss for a while without it then put it on one day and took it to the range and it came off in about 5 seconds and has not went back on. 

The sun shade might help a little bit block out the sun on certain days though.  The caps I would get for sure. 

Plus you would want the fixed kit, not the variable kit.  http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-All-Fixed-NON-HD-Power-Advanced-Shooter-Kit-P41071.aspx

The Leatherwood scopes for the most part do not have much of a following.  I have heard of quality/consistency problems.  Plus most of these gimick scopes are just that.  The SS is a good quality scope at a great price.  It is good enough and precise enough that may never need another scope.  But if you decide you want a fancier one with better glass and a variable you can always sell it for a good return and upgrade.  You will probably see the need to upgrade your stock long before you need to upgrade your scope. 

Good luck
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 09:40
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The difference in the side focus and rear focus is personal.  I have used both.  I like both but don't see a $100 benefit for the side most of the time.  To look at the rear focus you would have to pick you head up but how many times will that actually matter.....for 99% of us, never.    As far as the Kenton Knobs, they have great reviews, I haven't used them before so i will no weigh in on them.  As far ss the shooter pack goes, its a good buy. This one may be better as i dont' think you need the ARD http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-All-Fixed-NON-HD-Power-Intermediate-Shooter-Kit-P41070.aspx Must haves in my opinion for a noob into mildot would be the mil-dot master which comes with that kit.  The flip up covers are nice and keep the glass clean when not in use and the sunshade helps with sun glare if you shoot in a particulary bright place.  The ARD isn't worth it IMO, i have one and have used it before and it darkens the sight picture to much for my liking as a target shooter.  IF i was crawling across the sandbox looking for targets and not wanting to give away my position with scope glare then yes i would want it but dont' for target.  But it does through that tacti-cool sense in there as so many say.
For rings and base i would need to know more about what you have to say for sure if you need to maybe change or not.  Getting into long range you may want a canted base but with the SS its not always needed.   20MOA bases are almost a standard for those stretching out past 600 or so yards but again not a necessity.  With rings you wanna try to keep the scope as close to the bore as possible.  I have gotten by with low rings on a 20MOA base with my SS scope on 2 rifles now but I dont' have a savage.  Burris extreme tactical rings are a nice set that are budget friendly as well as a few of the TPS rings.  EGW and TPS make some good bases too.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 09:45
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

To look at the rear focus you would have to pick you head up but how many times will that actually matter.....for 99% of us, never.  


Looking at the markings on the focus is not the best way to do it anyway.  Most of the time the numbers are not exact.  The best way to adjust parallax is to be looking through the scope.  Turn it all the way to infinity and then slowly start turning it down until the reticle and target are in the same plane.  It is really easy to do with a little practice.  Move it til you think it is right, then slightly move your head side to side and it the reticle moves you know you do not have it in the same plane as the target.  Then adjust and try again til you get it.  Eventually you will learn to get it right on a lot of the time. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 09:46
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That why i said to look at it.  not use it....Wink
 
But great explanation too thanks STThunbs Up


Edited by SVT_Tactical - April/29/2010 at 09:49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 10:03
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The rings look like they are the Leupold Standard 30mm Rings and the base Leupold Standard 1 Piece Base so no +moa mount just a flat mount
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 10:09
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TPS XP Tactical 1 Piece Base
TPS XP Tactical 1 Piece Base
Stock # - TPS20302
  • Alloy Steel
  • Savage Accu-Trigger Right Hand Short Action (except the Savage Model 12 Target Models (12 Bench, 12 F Class, 12 F/TR, 12 Palma))
  • 20 MOA
$59.95 
Add TPS XP Tactical 1 Piece Base to Cart
EGW Picatinny Rail 1 Piece Scope Mount EGW Picatinny Rail 1 Piece Scope Mount
Stock # - EGW41002
  • Savage Round Receiver Short Action
  • Matte
  • 20 MOA
$39.95 
Add EGW Picatinny Rail 1 Piece Scope Mount to Cart
Burris Xtreme Tactical 30mm Rings Burris Xtreme Tactical 30mm Rings
Stock # - 420160
  • Matte
  • Low (1/4")
  • For Xtreme Tactical Rifle Scopes
$54.95 
Add Burris Xtreme Tactical 30mm Rings to Cart
TPS Tactical Scope 30mm Rings TPS Tactical Scope 30mm Rings
Stock # - TPS30670
  • Low (.925")
  • Alloy Steel
  • Weaver-Style
$69.95 
Add TPS Tactical Scope 30mm Rings to Cart
Either of the above bases would be better and for rings too
 
There are other choices out there but i dont' want to overwhelm you either with so many options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 13:02
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Get the TPS stuff, it is better and well worth the extra cost.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 13:52
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

The SS scopes are 30mm tubes are your rings for 30mm scopes or 1 inch? 

They have good knobs on them already, IMO I would say not to worry about the Kenton's.

As far as side vs rear, that is personal preference.  I have both and think the rear is just as good, plus for lefty's it works better.  Personally I would buy the rear focus and spend the other $100 on ammo or something else you need. 

Personally I do not like the ARD on the original SS scopes.  It makes the image very very dark and greatly reduces image quality as well.  Plus for a non military why does one really need to worry about the scope glaring?  I shot my ss for a while without it then put it on one day and took it to the range and it came off in about 5 seconds and has not went back on. 

The sun shade might help a little bit block out the sun on certain days though.  The caps I would get for sure. 

Plus you would want the fixed kit, not the variable kit.  http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-All-Fixed-NON-HD-Power-Advanced-Shooter-Kit-P41071.aspx

The Leatherwood scopes for the most part do not have much of a following.  I have heard of quality/consistency problems.  Plus most of these gimick scopes are just that.  The SS is a good quality scope at a great price.  It is good enough and precise enough that may never need another scope.  But if you decide you want a fancier one with better glass and a variable you can always sell it for a good return and upgrade.  You will probably see the need to upgrade your stock long before you need to upgrade your scope. 

Good luck
ST, we go to the mat on this one... First let me state, that the Super Sniper would serve you well and I do not believe you would be unhappy with it...
Now, 1) Jim Leatherwood is a TRUE American hero.  He served in Viet Nam, was wounded and almost died there.  He developed the original Automatic Ranging Telescope (A.R.T.) and gave our sniper forces an advantage that turned the tide of the sniper battle over there by dramatically reducing the time required to turn a good shooter into a good long range shooter.  Because the A.R.T was such an advantage, the U.S. Government forbade him from commercializing the concept for 30 years.  For 30 years he was denied the ability to profit from the fruits of his labor.  There is NO GIMMICK to the Leatherwood M1000 and M1200 rifle scopes.  They are based upon the design that was used in Viet Nam, and as a matter of fact, the Viet Nam era Leatherwood A.R.T.s are the only scopes from that era that are still maintained and issued for use in the OIF and OEF theaters.  In the late '90's Mr. Leatherwood was finally granted the right to produce his rifle scopes for the commercial market, after that costly 30 year court battle with the nation he fought so hard to protect.  With resources depleted, he turned to the overseas markets to bring his scopes to market, the only ones he could afford.  But he had a passion to deliver a quality tactical-style scope to the general public that also suited the hunting market.  I am proud to say that I have number 0049, which is the 50th Leatherwood Sporter A.R.T. off the line.  It serves just fine and has aided in the proccesing of more deer than most people see in a lifetime.  Good ole Alabama hunting laws... 2 deer a day.
There have definitely been some quality problems in the introduction and continuation of the Leatherwood/Uni-dial line of scopes.  There have been, at various times, quality problems with Swarovski, Kahles, Zeiss, and certainly with Leupold, Burris, etc, etc, etc.  Jim Leatherwood died in 2007 and the rifle scope world lost a genius who still had a lot of designs left in him.  There is no "gimmick" to the A.R.T. scopes.  They are easy to use, fast acquisition, and deadly. 


Edited by Kickboxer - April/29/2010 at 13:58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 14:18
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I think you misinterpreted my meaning Dan.  The scopes in a general sense are not built to very good quality as are most of these cheap "gimick" scopes because most are Chinese junk.  Not saying that few might not be okay, but in a general sense Chinese scopes just aren't up to much.  Not calling his way of developing camputer or whatever it is a gimick.
Not calling him into question or his circumstances.  But regardless of all that there are not many good reviews of Leatherwood scopes period.  An SS scope on the other hand has great reviews.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2010 at 20:56
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SKU Description Quantity Price
SS10X42 SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope 1 $299.95
TPS30670 TPS Tactical Scope 30mm Rings 1 $69.95
TPS20302 TPS XP Tactical 1 Piece Base 1 $59.95
SSAF SWFA SS All Fixed (NON HD) Power Advanced Shooter Kit 1 $99.95

Ok so I just placed this order, and still feel very anxious hoping I made the right decision.  I greatly appreciate all the info and help and advice offered.  As you can see by the order it was well received, and taken to heart.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/01/2010 at 11:38
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Great thread!  Thanks for starting it guero.  Please let me know how you like everything when it arrives.  I've been hunting/shooting for almost 30 years and have been active duty military for a little over 13 now and still found the thread to be very useful.  Oddly enough...despite my profession I know very little about tactical optics and have spent the last few months researching the matter.  I'm in the process of building a rifle for F-Class shooting and have decided to go with a SS until I learn the sport.  I'm just trying to decide between the 10X and 16X.  Shots will be between 600 and 1000 yards so I can't help but think the extra magnification will be useful.  I have a close friend, however, that shoots competitively at 1000 yards and he clams a 10X is plenty.  Who knows?  Maybe I should just flip a coin. Big Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/01/2010 at 12:07
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RSbible, I have both the 10x and the 16x and would say if its going to be dedicated to FClass then get the 16X.
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I'm not sure it will be "dedicated" to F-Class but that's definitely its intended purpose.  I could see shooting it in some tactical events as well and may even do some long range varmint hunting with it.  Any way...do you notice any difference in quality?  I find it tough to piece together the reviews.  As a whole, everything I read is positive but I get the feeling the 16X doesn't fair as well optically as the 10X.  If quality is similar I think I'd prefer the higher magnification.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/01/2010 at 12:42
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I think you misinterpreted my meaning Dan.  The scopes in a general sense are not built to very good quality as are most of these cheap "gimick" scopes because most are Chinese junk.  Not saying that few might not be okay, but in a general sense Chinese scopes just aren't up to much.  Not calling his way of developing camputer or whatever it is a gimick.
Not calling him into question or his circumstances.  But regardless of all that there are not many good reviews of Leatherwood scopes period.  An SS scope on the other hand has great reviews.
Actually, there are a lot of people who like the camputer scopes quite well.  They are certainly not the best rifle scopes on the market, just as they are CERTAINLY not the worst.  I have been very fortunate and successful with the two I have.  I'm not selling them and not pushing them, but I DO OWN two... most people who berate them have never even held one, much less shot anything with it.  Also, there are some cheaper scopes in the line that get "lumped into" the A.R.T. line because they are Leatherwood.  Using one of the other scopes does not translate to the A.R.T.s. 
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