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Scope I Want Doesn't Exist ??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 16:24
DeadeyeJack View Drop Down
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I'm a new poster here, maybe this topic has been beat to death previously.

Recently returned from a Colorado elk hunt - very dissatisfied with my scope (still got my elk), so I've started looking for a new scope.

All I want for Christmas is a relatively simple list of specifications; but I can't seem to find all of them in any one scope.

1. A quality piece of glass,
2. 1" tube,
3. Adjustable Objective,
4. Generous Eye Relief,
5. Illuminated Reticle (preferably simple Duplex).

The Burris 4.5-14x42 Fullfield II (200185) would seem to be ideal except the advertised eye relief is a dismal 3.8"-3.1"

Besides, I have a Burris scope on a .44 Magnum handgun that I'm also very dissatisfied with (a 2-7x32 AO) because at 7X it has only 10 inches of eye relief and a miserable 4.9mm exit pupil. As far as exit pupil is concerned, of course it is impossible to defy the laws of physics - but it is beyond awkward trying to shoot a magnum hunting pistol only 10 inches in front of your face - not to mention the unpleasant muzzle blast. Trying to find that miniscule exit pupil also is difficult without a firm sandbag rest (and I don't usually carry those while I'm hunting).

My dissatisfaction with the 2-7x32 AO makes me skeptical of investing in another Burris scope, knowing beforehand that the 4.5-14x42 eye relief is inadequate for a hunting rifle where the scenario demands quick target acquisition and healthy respect for heavy recoil.

By comparison, the very similar Leupold 4.5-14x40 VX-III (LEU61110) has a very generous eye relief of 5"-3.7" - but it is not available with an illuminated reticle.

I see no products from Zeiss, Nikon or Bushnell that meet my desired specifications. Even the Swarovski Z6i doesn't have an Adjustable Objective.

Does anyone have any recommendations where I can find a scope that satisfies my requirements? I could accept a 3x9, or a 50mm Objective Lens - but I want Adjustable Objective, Illuminated Reticle and a 1" tube.

Thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 17:51
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The Zeiss 4.5-14x50 has a 1" tube & a side focus which is the same as an AO but you're right it doesn't have an IR.

I'm not positive but I believe Leupold probably makes a scope in their VariX III class with all that you are looking for, but I'm not a Leupold fan.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 18:23
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http://www.swfa.com/pc-9138-218-nikon-65-20x44-monarch-ucc-riflescope.aspx
Too much magnification??
 
No AO.
 
As stated, the Leupold's may have something for you, but I couldn't find any that matched your criteria exactly.
 
Welcome to The OT!! I feel like I'm playing "Scavenger Hunt" Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 18:30
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more like a needle in a haystack mark, i respect a fellow who knows what he wants  no wishy washy choices, that way your completely satisfied with the purchase, if i could afford to be that way whoa buddy chris would have me in his "5" spot on his speed dial.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 18:45
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

 
Welcome to The OT!! I feel like I'm playing "Scavenger Hunt" Smile


Big%20smile

I think the 1" tube is going to really limit your choices for everything you listed.

If your open to a 30mm, there seems to be more to choose from.

Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-III 30mm Riflescope

-Mike
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 18:56
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Quite right, Mike.
 
Are you open to a side focus?
To me, there's AO's and then theres side focus units.    
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 18:59
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Welcome, DeadeyeJack!
 
I could be overlooking something, but I do believe no scope exists that meets all 5 of your requirements.  So given that, since you'll probably be forced to do so, which of those requirements would you be most willing to live without?
 
First, you will need to define what "generous eye relief" means to you.  Based on your comments, you seem to think at least 4" of eye relief is necessary, and the simple fact is not very many scopes having high enough magnification to warrant adjustable objective will have that much eye relief.  Besides, keep in mind that many of the 1" variable power scopes have variable eye relief and have the "generous" eye relief only when set on the lower magnifications.  If you're really concerned about fast target acquisition, I believe you're better off sacrificing a little eye relief that exists only on lower power for a reasonable fixed eye relief of about 3.5" which really is plenty for all but the heaviest recoiling rifles.  The fixed eye relief enables you to mount the scope so you have consistent cheek placement against the stock.  The new generation Nikon Monarchs all have 4" constant eye relief, but not the illuminated plex reticle.  The fact is, there aren't very many 1" tube scopes with lit reticles, and those that are available generally don't have adjustable objective. 
 
The scope that comes closest to meeting your requirements that I'm aware of is the Nikon Monarch 6.5-20X44, which has all of your requirements except "generous eye relief" due to the fact it's a high powered scope.  However, this scope is WAY overpowered for normal big game hunting, and it has target turrets that's likely to snag on stuff.  Therefore, I think it would make a lousy scope for a general purpose elk rifle.
The next closest I can think of would be the various Kahles CL scopes.  They have EXCELLENT glass, 1" tube, side focus (not adjustable objective, but it accomplishes the same thing), and generous eye relief.  Even though eye relief is only 3.6", that's a CONSTANT 3.6" throughout the entire magnification range.  They don't have lit reticle, though.
The Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14X44, like the Kahles CLs, has the good glass, side focus parallax adjustment, 1" tube, and fairly generous 3.5" constant eye relief, but again, no lit reticle option.
The Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10X40 and 2.5-10X50 has the good glass, the 1" tube and an illuminated reticle (though not battery powered).  However, based on your statements, you probably won't like the eye relief, and they don't have adjustable objective.
The Trijicon Accupoint is a very interesting lit reticle scope that has #1, #2, and #5, but again, no adjustable objective and probably not enough eye relief to your liking.
 
I have to ask, though -- why do you insist on having adjustable objective on an elk hunting scope?  I would advise against having more than 4X on the lower end so you still have reasonable FOV and don't miss close shot opportunities.  Most scopes with 4X or less on the low end won't have A/O because it simply provides little benefit to scopes with less than about 12X on the upper end.  In addition, it's just one more thing that can screw you at the moment of truth if you're not careful.  Say you left it set on 50 yards or it got accidentally moved while walking through thick vegetation and a bull of a lifetime steps out at 250.  Your sight picture will be so out of focus, you may not be able to take the shot.  Some shot opportunities don't allow time to fiddle with dials/knobs. 
 
I like a well-designed lit reticle myself, but it isn't absolutely necessary if you select a bold reticle that shows up well in low light, unless you also plan to use your rifle for nighttime predator or hog hunting. 
 
I've used all manner of scopes with 3.5" eye relief on extremely heavy recoiling rifles and have never had a problem with either quick target acquisition or recoil.  Again, if you're really concerned with quick target acquisition, I would select a scope with constant eye relief instead of variable eye relief anyway.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 19:53
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Very well put Ted.  For me, 3" of eye relief is plenty for any hunting rifle when your shooting technique is sound.  If I was you this is where I would sacrifice.  Also I would advise against any type of parallax adjustment on a hunting rifle, unless you plan on shooting very long distances.  Your parallax adjustment will be on the wrong setting 99% of the time when you are hunting.  If you need a illuminated reticle you will probably have to get a 30mm tube b/c there just aren't any options out there for 1" scopes.  Doing these things would lead me to recommend you getting a Kahles CBX or CSX, if you require parallax adjustment then I would recommend a Zeiss Victory 6-24X56 which is probably too much scope for a hunting rifle.  Of course both of these require money to be no option.  If you can do without a lit reticle (which you can if you are not night hunting by getting a #4 or #8 reticle) then the Kahles CL offers everything else you require, while being the finest 1" scope money can buy.  I cannot find anything that meets all your criteria, if you can live with a 30mm tube then get the Zeiss Victory.  This puts you with arguably the best scope money can buy.  Personally, I think there is no reason to get an illuminated reticle if you don't have the glass to use it with that a Kahles or Zeiss Victory will provide.  Good luck, welcome to the OT! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 21:13
DeadeyeJack View Drop Down
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I looked at that scope and considered it.

I don't have any experience with these side focus/parallax selectable scopes. They may be the best thing since hotcakes. I need to fiddle with one for awhile and see how I like it. But don't want to buy one until I'm relatively sure I like it.

To be candid - I'm a bit dubious how they can stuff two different functions into one knob. Adjusting the objective lens to correct for parallax at variable ranges is one thing and focusing the optics to accommodate the shooter's vision at different ranges is quite a different operation.

I'd be curious to know how they correct parallax with a focusing knob.

I would appreciate hearing the practical experiences of others who use the side focus capability.

To get both a true Adjustable Objective and an Illuminated Reticle, I could compromise on some of the other specifications; a 30mm is OK, a 50mm objective is OK. Power can be anywhere from 3x9 to 6x20, or thereabouts. But, I would like to keep the weight in the range of 18-22 ounces. Trekking around the Rockies between 8,000-10,000 feet nearly killed me - I don't want a scope any heavier than it absolutely needs to be.

Eye Relief is still an important factor - I like the VX-III 5.0"-3.8" spec.

Life is always a series of compromises - right now, I think I'd take the Leupold and give up the IR altogether. I've managed nicely for many years without IR, I just thought it would be a "nice to have" feature on a new scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 21:26
DeadeyeJack View Drop Down
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Thanks for all the research and thoughtful advice. I especially like the Kahles 3-10x50 you cited.

My first experience with an AO scope was years ago with a 6-18x50 on a .257 Weatherby I used to hunt West Texas Mule Deer. I found the AO to be quite useful for off-season practice shooting varmits at longer ranges (out to 500 yards or so).

Maybe my insistence on AO is old-fashioned stubborness - I just "feel" like it makes a difference.

I still enjoy using my elk/deer rifle to shoot groundhogs for practice and just good ol' tigger time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 21:50
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TR21R Trijicon%201.25-4x24%20Accu-Point%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Trijicon 1.25-4x24 Accu-Point Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Red Triangle BAC
  • 1"
SWFA: $572.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
This is one of the few illuminated one inch tube optics, nice scope really doesnt fill all the markers but still worth a look as is it's TR22R brother in 2.5-10x56 but 30mm, I like the glass.  I'll throw out a couple of other nice scopes for your consideration as I dont think you will find one that meets all the markers.  I like side focus and have several.
 
251421 IOR%202.5-10x42%20Tactical%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 IOR 2.5-10x42 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated MP-8
  • 30mm
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
SWFA: $899.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
 
 
422152M Bushnell%202.5-10x50%20Elite%204200%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Bushnell 2.5-10x50 Elite 4200 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • 4a w/ Illuminated Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rainguard
  • Side Battery Housing
SWFA: $479.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
 
424164M Bushnell%204-16x40%20Elite%204200%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Bushnell 4-16x40 Elite 4200 Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Multi-X
  • 1"
  • Rainguard
  • Adjustable Objective
  • Free 5" Sun Shade w/ Purchase
SWFA: $389.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
I have one of these and while it has no illumination and is a tad short on eye relief the only thing that bothers me is 1/8moa clicks other than that it is a great scope and a 1 in tube with  adjustable objective, I wouldn't mind having a second one.
5214349972
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 22:22
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Originally posted by DeadeyeJack DeadeyeJack wrote:

I don't have any experience with these side focus/parallax selectable scopes. They may be the best thing since hotcakes. I need to fiddle with one for awhile and see how I like it. But don't want to buy one until I'm relatively sure I like it.

To be candid - I'm a bit dubious how they can stuff two different functions into one knob. Adjusting the objective lens to correct for parallax at variable ranges is one thing and focusing the optics to accommodate the shooter's vision at different ranges is quite a different operation.

I'd be curious to know how they correct parallax with a focusing knob.

I would appreciate hearing the practical experiences of others who use the side focus capability.
 
Side focus and A/O both do the same thing -- adjust for parallax (reticle and target image not in the same focal plane), which also focuses the target at the same time.  The adjustments are just in different locations, requiring different mechanics, both of which are time proven and reliable.  I just happen to think side focus/ adjustable objective doesn't belong on a "normal" big game hunting riflescope.  Just one more thing to potentially mess up the one and only shot opportunity you may get all season.
 
Remember though -- parallax adjustment isn't a needed feature until the magnification gets beyond about 12X.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2007 at 22:30
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Deadeye...........What caliber and rifle do you wish to find a new scope for??? The reason that I ask is that most of your good quality to high quality scopes average about 3.25" to 3.75" of eye relief. With the proper cheek positioning and proper body positioning, 3" to 3.5" should be enough eye relief even for the big calibers. As far as your rifle scope is concerned, you are going to have to compromise somewhere.............As far as your Burris is concerned? You may want to look into the Nikon Monarch 2.5x8 UCC, with EER. I use this scope in two ways. The first as a scout scope (on the barrel forward of the action) mounted on my 300 WSM Ruger Frontier 16.5" barreled compact. The second as a revolver scope sitting atop my 500 S&W with the 4" barrel. Basically, a dual purpose.....With all revolver scopes even the Nikon, as the power increases, your eye relief decreases. However, I don`t have the 10" problem that you do with the Burris, but I do need to retract my arms a bit from the almost full extended arm position when I use the 8X.......If you do plan on shopping for a new revolver scope, try the eye relief in all magnifications before you buy. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2007 at 00:42
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Burris Signature Select LRS 4-16x44 has 1" tube, adjustable objective and illuminated reticle.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2007 at 02:42
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AO becomes more important for close shooting, in other words below 100yds. In fact the below 50yds and 25 yds is where parallax becomes an issue. That is why airgun shooters all have parallax adjustment scopes. When you are shooting out to 500yds, parallax is a non-issue and good glass and other things become important.
So if you plan to shoot bugholes at 50 and 100yds, go for an AO, otherwise listen to the good advice given by the other guys.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2007 at 06:36
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I would not recommend a Leupold to anyone for a hunting rifle.  The glass is inferior, consider the Kahles and the Zeiss scopes.  Why do you feel you need so much eye relief?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2007 at 11:06
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Burris Signature Select LRS 4-16x44 has 1" tube, adjustable objective and illuminated reticle.

ILya
 
Clap   Wow   ---  I'm impressed  good job Koshkin
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Burris Signature Select LRS 4-16x44 has 1" tube, adjustable objective and illuminated reticle.

ILya
 
Clap   Wow   ---  I'm impressed  good job Koshkin
 
No, no, no...The original poster already said he wasn't interested in a Burris.......Wink
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Original post:
"My dissatisfaction with the 2-7x32 AO makes me skeptical of investing in another Burris scope."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2007 at 11:47
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Original post:
"My dissatisfaction with the 2-7x32 AO makes me skeptical of investing in another Burris scope."


I saw that, but skeptical and not interested might not mean the same things.  Besides, what he is complaining about with that pistol scope is not build quality or anything like that: he does not like the short eyerelief and small exit pupil at higher magnifications.  Both are in the specs. 

Aside from that, Signature Select scopes are quite good.  You could do a lot worse than those.

ILya
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Burris Signature Select LRS 4-16x44 has 1" tube, adjustable objective and illuminated reticle.

ILya
 
...and 3.5" - 4" of eye relief, which is decent.  Good call, Koshkin! 
 
I didn't look among the Burris offerings because Deadeye seemed down on Burris in general.
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Excellent suggestions - thanks so much for all your research.

I agree with the other posters that 3.5" inches of eye relief is satisfactory for most hunting rifles and hunting situations.

But, I was disappointed to see the Burris 4.5-14x42 Fullfield II Rifle Scope 200185 has only 3.1" (14X) whereas the Leupold 4.5-14x40 VX-III Riflescope LEU81110 has a much bett 3.7" (at 14X) - both have 1" tubes.

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Possible solution - thanks for the research.

It has 3.5" eye relief at max power, which is acceptable.

24 ounce weight is a tad heavy - but acceptable given the other parameters.
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I would eliminate the illuminated reticle and AO.  I've been hunting a lot of years and have never missed a shot because I didn't have either.  Then you've got more selections than you need, in a lot of price ranges.  Get a good quality scope that will hold its zero, in a power you're comfortable with.  Spend the rest of your on some good binoculars if you don't already have some.
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I don't need all the 5" of eye relief the Leupold offers, but at 14X the 3.1" offered by the Burris is just inadequate - I agree with most other posters that 3.5" is acceptable.
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