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Scope Guidance Needed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 01:11
Phil3 View Drop Down
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I was not sure whether to put this into the Target section or not, so if I need to repost there, I can do so. 

I am looking for scope options that best match my intended use for a ..223 AR-15 and a .308 AR-10.  Both will be shot off a bench, maybe prone, and at distances of 100, 200, and very rarely, 600 yards.  Paper targets.  The rifles are being built for top accuracy, using the best parts, so I want to get scopes well matched to the job at hand.  I am not sure of what magnification, objective size, and tube size to look for.  I had hoped to spend less than $500, but if that won't do it, or compromise accuracy, I will consider more.  What scopes might work well for my application?

Thanks.  - Phil 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 01:47
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Sounds like a job for a Super Sniper (SS). Just got finished reviewing one:

http://opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=16443

Also another member Ronk did a review that is probably more in depth than mine. His scope was the side focus SS, mine was the rear focus version:

http://opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=16501

I think if you read the reviews it will better help you decide if the SS if the scope for you. For your budget the SS would be a great choice and I don't think you would regret the choice. Just my opinion of course and you will probably get more ideas but I would consider the SS a top choice.

Here is a link to SWFA's list of Super Snipers:

http://www.swfa.com/c-2760-swfa-ss-scopes.aspx

O yea and welcome to the OT! Thunbs Up





Edited by Monster - April/07/2009 at 01:47
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 03:01
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+1Thunbs Up
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 12:15
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+1 on SS. If you are building a $3K AR, you might want to look at
a tactical variable like Burris, Leupold, Kahles or Schmidt & Bender
as they have more flexibility than a fixed X scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 12:41
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Why spend that kinda money on 2 rifles and buy one $500 scope to move from one to the other?  I tried this once, it became a monumental headache (though, in truth, it was for hunting rifles that weren't always going to the range.)

If they will always be on the bench, always shot in good light, and at the ranges listed, I'd seriously consider a variable power scope.

Bu the SS is a great scope and will serve you well.  if you take that route, definitely get the 10X.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 12:56
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I was not intending on buying one scope to move from one rifle to another.  I am looking for two scopes, one for each rifle.  I am rather surprised a fixed 10X is suggested, since for hitting paper targets, it seems low in power for 200 yards, much less 600.  I would think that 8 - 20X or more would be appropriate, but was not sure, hence my questions here. 
 
- Phil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 13:07
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Power range is a pretty personal thing.  I usually shoot out to 600 on 8x or less.  1000 12x to 10x.  Reason being for me is at the higher power I start to shake more.  I also can see my heart beating and slight moving my scope more above 10x or so.  Mirage also is an issue.  Other people love having 15 to 20+ power for shooting.  It really is a personal preference.  I personally would not go over 10x on a fixed power scope.  But as Rancid said if all you are doing is shooting targets in the daylight a variable would be a good choise if you want more than 10x.  16x SS would a lot of times be to much, thus the recommend to stay with 10x.  But if you get a variable then no of this matters.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 13:22
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Phil,


One point is profoundly important: optical quality trumps power every time!  A good 6X will be MUCH more useful than a crap 20X.

Next, 10X is adequate for 1,000 yard shots, so long as extreme precision isn't needed.  Are these to be sub-MOA guns?

A fixed 10X would not be my first choice for either gun, the point they were trying to make is that the SS is a great deal and will do what you require, and do it well.

Tell me more about the rifles and I can help point you in the right direction.

!6" barrel. 20"?  Made for precision or made for durability and longevity?


Tool, the issues you mention with higher magnification are present with lower magnification too, you just don't see them.  Watching your heartbeat in the reticle is good information, it will help you fine-tune your shot timing.   

Mirage, especially for those shooting in hot climates, is reason enough to avoid anything fixed in >16X.


Edited for spelling


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - April/07/2009 at 13:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 14:02
Phil3 View Drop Down
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The guns are to be sub-moa guns.  At least I hope so.  The AR15 will be shooting .223 (or maybe 6mmAR), out of a 22" Krieger barrel, single stage quality trigger (JP, Accuracy Speaks), using a bipod or bench rest bags.  The AR10 is the same, except a Krieger 24" barrel.  The rifles are built for precision.  They will never be hauled into the field, just from the parking lot at the range to the bench.  These rifles should shoot as well as is possible for these types of guns.  I shoot a .22 rimfire at 50 yards and find at 9x, the magnification is none too much for aiming at paper targets.  A cheap Simmons scope however.

- Phil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 15:00
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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And your budget is $500/scope?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 15:30
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In my original post, I stated, "...I had hoped to spend less than $500, but if that won't do it, or compromise accuracy, I will consider more...".  I don't know what kind of money is required to buy the kind of optics needed to achieve what I want.  If the appropriate scopes costs more than $500, then I will have to spend it.  I liked what I saw in the Zeiss Conquest 6.5 - 20X 50mm scope, but it is $1,000.  Maybe that is overkill for what I want, maybe not.  Maybe something much less costly will get me 90% of the performance I need.  This is what I don't know.  - Phil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 16:25
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Here are a few, all under $1,000.

http://www.swfa.com/pc-9847-185-bushnell-6-24x50-elite-4200-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
(short on eye relief, which isn't a problem on an AR-10. Limited elevation, but a canted base can help with that.

http://www.swfa.com/pc-14779-2172-bushnell-25-16x42-elite-6500-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
(better eye relief, more elevation travel, broader magnification range.  This would be a strong pick for the .223 or the .308


http://www.swfa.com/pc-12945-1512-new-sightron-35-10x44-siii-30mm-riflescope.aspx
(haven't shot one, hear good things.)

http://www.swfa.com/pc-4304-2760-swfa-ss-10x42-tactical-riflescope.aspx
(bet bang-for-buck, especially on the .223)

http://www.swfa.com/pc-9100-1134-meopta-4-16x44-meostar-r1-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
(I was pleasantly surprised by the glass in these.)

http://www.swfa.com/pc-8151-204-burris-6-24x50-black-diamond-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
(don't own, hear good things.)

All recommended have target turrets.

The Conquest would serve you well, as would any of these.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 17:27
Phil3 View Drop Down
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Thanks for the listing, and recommendations.  I am looking at each.  I am mostly unsure on magnification needed.  Does it make any difference, for my application, whether the reticle is focused on the first or second plane?  - Phil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 17:34
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If you will be firing known distances only and not ranging targets, FFP is not needed.

Additionally, if small groups is the goal, I'd go with the finest reticle you can get.

FFP has the nasty habit of getting really, really small at low magnification, and can get really, really big at high magnification.  Don't get FFP.

I'd look for a fine plex, or if you go with a mil-dot or MOA reticle, make sure the adjustments match the reticle (mil adjustments with mil turrets or MOA adjustments and MOA turret), it's easier to correct  fire with that setup.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 17:49
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This is what I think Is a good choice

 
If you shot for small groups this is what you need to have .
 
matt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 17:51
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Originally posted by matc matc wrote:

This is what I think Is a good choice

 
If you shot for small groups this is what you need to have .
 
matt


That one might actually fit his bill really well.  Good call.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 18:07
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My concerns with that scope would be the length and the 1" tube.

If you gotta go Nikon (of which I am not a huge fan), I think I'd consider this one too.

http://www.swfa.com/pc-6979-222-nikon-4-16x50-monarch-x-30mm-riflescope.aspx


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 18:23
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What is the basis of your concerns with the length and 1" tube?  From what I read, the 1" tube vs 30mm seems to be a non-issue?  What say you?  Why not a fan of Nikon? 
 
- Phil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 18:40
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As far as the tube diameter I believe the 30 mm tubes have more internal adjustment  than a 1" tube. That is the biggest advantage
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 19:12
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Monster is correct; as a general rule, the larger the tube diameter, the more adjustment the scope can have.


I had a Nikon, prior to the new Monarch, and was not pleased with the glass or controls.  Everything in scopes is personal preference and I prefer other scopes.

A 19" scope is pretty big, I prefer not to put huge scopes on non-huge rifles.

Also, unless the glass is really, really good, I find little use for 24X scopes, this is why I keep steering you toward 16X or thereabouts.  A good 16X scope with good glass will be more than enough for 600 yards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2009 at 10:11
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Agree w/RC, unless you are shooting over a valley, anything above 16X or so really accentuates mirage and your own shakin'. Note that the USMC has gone to a 3-12 Schmidt & Bender and some 4-16s (as seen on Best Sniper TV show) for smacking down bad guys. This was a bit "up" from the 10X Unertl they used for years. Schmidts are expensive but hold their value and are about bullet proof. We have a shooter in our club with a Savage F/TR that cost a bit more than a grand with a 3+ grand 5-25 Schmidt on it. It's a deadly shooter and proves to me that there is nothing wrong with spending more on the glass than the gun.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2009 at 16:25
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There's nothing wrong with Savage, I've seen a few that shoot very, very well. 

I have several scopes that cost more than the rifle on which they ride: Tikka with Swaro, Handi-rifle with IOR: good glass makes a good rifle great and a great rifle exemplary. 

But nothing makes a crap rifle anything other than a crap rifle.
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