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Scope for Ruger 77 Frontier in .308 Win

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 12:26
farscott View Drop Down
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Okay, a bit of an explanation.  My daughter, who is 14, wants to go deer hunting with Dad.  I took that as a good thing and got approval to buy her a deer rifle.  She is 5'4" and 130 pounds, so she does not want a heavy rifle.  So she and I tried lots of rifles, and she decided she liked the Frontier.   She even tried one in 7mm-08.  I was going to get one in 7mm-08, but the fates intervened as a LNIB one came up for sale at a nice discount. So I got her a .308 which is good because I have a Remington 700 in .308, and I can load ammo with a bit less velocity and 7mm-08 recoil for her with no fuss.   I suspect any shot she takes will be at a range less than 100 yards based on terrain and my experience.

The scope situation, on the other hand, is a bit less clear.  I am concerned that she will "crawl the stock" during the excitement of an actual hunt and get the mark to prove it because her cousin did the same thing a few months back.  More importantly, I think my daughter is also concerned about the same thing. 

She has lots of rimfire experience under her belt, but not much centerfire experience.  She also suffered an eye injury at school last year after being struck by a football, so I am concerned about not repeating that experience.  So the idea of a "scout" mount makes some sense to me.  On the other hand, I have zero experience with a forward-mounted scope.

I did some digging here and found that I have a few basic choices:  1)  Use a dedicated "scout" scope like the Burris or Leupold models or 2) Use a handgun scope.  I am leaning towards a fixed power for this rifle as it is one less thing that she needs to adjust/think about when hunting.

So my questions:

1)  Am I correct in mounting a scout scope on this rifle for my daughter?

2)  If so, any things that I need to consider?  If not and I get a standard scope, any suggestions for good eye relief? 

3)  Lastly, any suggestions on actual models?  I have been all over the SWFA site, and there is a lot of variety.  I want a decent scope for her, but I cannot see spending more than $450 since that is what I have invested in the rifle.

4)  Any reasons to choose a variable over a fixed power for her?  She has very limited scope experience, mostly shooting my Kimber .22 at whatever power I have dialed at the moment.

Thanks for any help and suggestions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 13:29
John Barsness View Drop Down
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The Scout scope idea sounds good from an eye relief standpoint, but it brings up the problem of field of view. It's hard enough for young hunters to find a deer in the scope when they're excited without having the handicap of a very small field of view. Now, Scout-type scope of low X can (and probably should) be shot with both eyes open, which means the deer can be seen by both eyes, but this tends to be forgotten too during the excitement of the hunt.
 
I would instead tend toward a fixed power standard scope with a lot of eye relief, probably a Leupold 4x.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 14:20
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Scott....................Other than you, I think I`m the only oddball (but that`s ok with me), who owns a Ruger Frontier on this forum. I`m a compact fan.
 
My Frontier is chambered in the 300 WSM. Other than the cartridge difference, yours might be identical in appearance to mine with the laminated salt and pepper stock/blued barrel. Or, do have have the stainless Frontier in 308?
 
Either way, you can go with a scout scope or a conventional mount. I do both!
 
There are advantages to the scout scope and some dis-advantages.
 
Scout advantages!
         No eye relief issues or scope whacking to your daughters head to ever worry about.
 
         Because the scope is mounted forward of the action, there is no obstruction over the receiver. This also makes for easier loading access and for cleaning.
 
         When carrying the rifle, your daughter can carry the rifle as I do by the action with the palm of her hand right over the receiver. Doing so offers good balance and another great way to carry the rifle.
 
          With practice, the scouts as with low powered conventional variables offer fast both eyes open acquisition and aiming. 
 
Scout Dis-advantages!
 
           Narrower field of view (FOV) when looking through the scope. That is the nature of the scouts. But because one is able to keep both eyes open, one eye looking through the scope and the other eye open not looking through the scope, your overall FOV is increased with the open non-aiming eye which is not looking through the scope. ...The scouts take some time to master and are not for everyone.
 
          Looks! Some find the scout scope mount a little un-conventional looking.
 
For my scout, I use the 2.5-8x28 Nikon Monarch EER. However for your 308 Frontier, either the 2.75x Burris scout or the 2.5x Leupy scout make very fine scout scopes.
 
For a conventional scope and to eliminate as much as possible the eye relief issues for your daughter, you`ll need a scope with some very good eye relief. My 300 Frontier is not exactly a pussy cat in the recoil dept.
 
For a conventional scope, I strongly recomend you look at either the 2.5x FX2 Leupold with 4.9" of eye relief, the 1-4x20 VX2 or the one I use on both my Frontier and on my 375 Ruger Alaskan, the 1.5-5x20 Leupold VX3. All have great eye relief, all are light weight and all are a very good size that is in porportion to the Frontier`s more compact size. Each of these Leupolds offer the same and fast both eyes open aiming as the scouts do while set on the lower powers, while offering 300 to 500 yard capability for longer shots on deer sized game and larger. These scopes are fast handling and will keep that Frontier a fast handling handy rifle. 
           
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 15:26
medic52 View Drop Down
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Tough call, but if she is use to shooting with a scope and knows how to get the correct FOV should not be much of an issue other than the recoil flinch. My daughter now shoots a 308 w/ Zeiss conquest 3x9x40 and loves it........just turned 18 stands 5'4- 105lbs. NO scope bites yet and she's goning on her 3rd year with it....I tried to get her to shoot a 243 and she said it wasn't enough gun for her thought she needed more...........

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 16:05
farscott View Drop Down
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Gents,

Thanks for the information and advice. 

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Other than the cartridge difference, yours might be identical in appearance to mine with the laminated salt and pepper stock/blued barrel.
It is a black laminated stock with hints of green and a blued barrel/action.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 16:07
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I would teach the fundamentals of proper gun use and cheek wield. This in itself will help with keeping the scope bite at a minimum. I shoot a 300 win mag and use a scope that has 3 inches of relief. I have been bitten once, and that was totally my fault for the shooting style that I used was totally improper. Too many times children are the victims of our haste to get them shooting. Many of us went from iron sights and were taught the basics of proper shooting well before our first scopes were put onto our favorite rifles. The basics are far more important than the perceived proper scope. For their own safety they need to get going in the right direction first, and the scope will come as a graduation present.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 16:27
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Originally posted by farscott farscott wrote:

Gents,

Thanks for the information and advice. 

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Other than the cartridge difference, yours might be identical in appearance to mine with the laminated salt and pepper stock/blued barrel.
It is a black laminated stock with hints of green and a blued barrel/action.
...........Yep!!! That`s the same one I have. I forgot about the green shades which are in there too.....In thinking about it, I`d go with a conventional scope for your daughter.
 
The Frontier rifles are alot of fun.
 
If you haven`t seen this already, here`s a good read about the Frontier! "shootingtimes.com".......click "long guns"......scroll down and click on pg 6 or 7.........see "Short Answer About Scout Styled Rifles" by Dick Metcalf. His test rifle was chambered in the 7/08.
 
Pay particular attention as to what he writes under the subheading of "Short Barrel-Long Reach" and what his chrony results were vs a 24" barreled 7/08. Only losing 4.5% in the velocity dept.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 18:16
koshkin View Drop Down
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I like scout scopes and scout concept in general.  That having been said, there is one other  disadvantage of hunting with a scout scope: for the same magnification, low light performance is not going to be as good (simply because the scope is so far away from the eye).

For this application I would probably recommend some sort of a fixed magnification scope with a lot of eye relief or a low range variable with similar eyerelief characteristics.

In your price range, I think the best scope for the money is probably Sightron S2 Big Sky 1.25-5x20.

Another very good scope with a lot of eye relief is Burris Signature Safari 1.75-5x32.  Unfortunately, the only version currently available is the on with illuminated reticle that costs a little more.  Perhaps, you can find a non-illuminated one floating around for less.

Leupold VX-III or VX-3 in 1.5-5x20 is another good way to go, although the new VX-3 verson may strain your budget a little.

Of the fixed magnification scopes, there are many good choices available.  4x32 or similar is probably the way to go.

At the top of the heap optically are probably IOR 4x32 and Zeiss Conquest 4x32.  Zeiss has a bit more eyerelief, but IOR is available with a couple of good low light reticles (4a and post reticle).

One step down are Leupold FX-II 4x33 and Sightron S2 4x32.  Sightron is appreciably cheaper and has a bit more eyerelief than the Leupold, but Leupold has more mounting space on the tube.  If memory serves me right, Sightron has enough tube length to comfortably mount it on a short action Ruger, but there is less positioning latitude.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2009 at 19:09
Tip69 View Drop Down
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I think the Zeiss Conquest!  4" of eye relief!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2009 at 05:01
farscott View Drop Down
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Thanks for all of the advice.  Looks like a standard receiver mount is what she will be getting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2009 at 12:25
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I have a bit of a follow up question.  I took a look at the Leupold web site because they have a 2.5X FX-II Scout scope and a 4X FX-II, and I have some experience with older Leupold handgun scopes.  I wish I could find a standard 2.5X power fixed scope in that series as that is all she really needs for the distance we will be hunting. I was trying to compare apples to apples by using fixed power scopes from the same series from the same manufacturer, but I may not have succeeded due to the power difference.    At 100 yards, the FOV difference between the 4X regular scope and the 2.5X Scout scope is only 2 feet.  That is not a big loss when there is a possible benefit to my daughter's eye safety.  Am I missing something?  Is this the result of the generous eye relief of the 4X Leupold causing the smaller FOV?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2009 at 13:02
koshkin View Drop Down
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Leupold makes a standard 2.5x20 scope in the FX-II line-up.  It is either listed among the FX-II scopes or among Ultralight scopes:

http://www.swfa.com/pc-3608-135-leupold-25x20-fx-ii-ultralight-riflescope.aspx


When comparing scopes of different magnification, it is not really an apples to apples comparison.

As for other 2.5x scopes, there are not a lot of them on the market, and that Leupold is probably the best one. 

The other ones are: Weaver K2.5 2.5x20 (not sure if it is still available), Sightron S1 2.5x32 (ditto) and Pentax Lightseeker SG 2.5x25.

If all she needs is a 2.5x, you should also consider Weaver V3 1-3x20 variable.  It is a great little scope for not a lot of money at all.

ILya

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2009 at 14:37
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I had a Leupold 2.5X scout scope on a Swiss K-31 (since it was a good mounting option). It would certainly work fine for ranges out to 200 yards comfortably. However, as others have mentioned, FOV is an issue. I'd go for a fixed 4X scope. I got my Leupold 4x pretty far forward and have never been close to getting scoped. It has worked fine for getting on to a running elk @ 35 yards as well as a moving (and about to run) antelope @ 310 yards on my .308. Fixed scopes are more than adequate out to maximum point blank range and eliminate the chance that a newbie hunter will be dialed up to 9X when a deer jumps out of the brush 25 yards away.

Jon
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2009 at 14:41
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I forgot...one other thing: pistol scopes tend to have a very short parallax and too much eye relief - not ideal attributes for a rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2009 at 18:11
farscott View Drop Down
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Thanks for the info on the 2.5X FX-II.  I have no idea how I missed it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2009 at 20:33
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Originally posted by farscott farscott wrote:

Thanks for the info on the 2.5X FX-II.  I have no idea how I missed it.
........I don`t either. I mentioned that one in my first post. You`re forgiv`n!!Big GrinBig Grin
 
If your hunting ranges are 250 yards and less, the 2.5x FX2 Ultralite as a conventional mount, is a great little scope. It actually weighs 6.8 oz according to the Leupold site , not the 8.8 oz listed here. That combo will be a fast, sweet handling package for your daughter.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 07:17
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   Luckily I got one of the Weaver Classic K2.5x20 scopes before they were discontinued for my daughter's .243 Ruger M77 Ultralight Carbine. Maybe keep an eye out for a used one.
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