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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2008 at 19:58
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hey guys. Just put a 700vsf 308 left-hand on lay-away. This will be a deer/ black bear rifle but i would also like to do long range target shooting with it (300-1000yds)
 
I would like something with like a mil-radian target turret and a mil-dot recticle. Keep in mind i have never used a scope like this so any suggestions on where to start is appreciated. I would really like to keep the mounts and scope under a grand because i cant see myself paying more for optics than the rifle.
 
any suggestions on what to do would be appreciated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 05:28
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High five, bro. I have the same rifle, waiting to get my lic soon.
I have a Leupold 8,5-25x50 with the varmint reticule. Great scope.
 
I suggest you see yourself paying at least the same for optics as the rifle if you want to go out to 1000yds!
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I'm not an expert here, but I'm not sure that's do-able.  I don't think you will be able to get a 100 yard zero for the deer/bear useage and still be able to shoot up to 1000 yds with a .308.  I was going to suggest you get two scopes for this and use quick detach rings and have one for hunting and another for target shooting, but I think it will take two different mounts in order to do that...... which isn't very practicle.

Interested in what the real experts have to say about this.  Good luck!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 09:55
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I believe to go out to 1000yds you need a 20MOA base. QD mounts with a built in MOA on one set my be the answer. Otherwise a scope with plenty of adjustment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 10:02
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Whether or not you can reach 1000 yards and get a 100 yard zero with a slanted base or not depends entirely on the internal adjustment range of the scope you choose to mount on the rifle. 
Take an IOR 3-18x42 for example, you will need to add a 20 MOA base to reach 1000 yards, and you will still be able to get a 100 yard zero. 
Take a Super Sniper that has tons of internal adjustment and you would be able to reach 1000 yards and get a 100 yards zero with a flat base. 
Some Leupolds you could probably reach 1000 yards and a 100 yard zero with a flat base.
Basically if the scope has 100 MOA or more of adjustment you will be able to reach 1000 yards with a 100 yard zero with a flat base.  If the scope has less than 100 MOA down to about 65 MOA you should be able to reach 1000 yards and have a 100 yard zero if you add a 20 MOA base.  Less than 65 M0A to about 50 you will need to add a 30 MOA base and reaching 1000 and having a 100 yard zero becomes iffy on both ends.

All this is based on .308 ballistics
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 12:35
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

High five, bro. I have the same rifle, waiting to get my lic soon.
I have a Leupold 8,5-25x50 with the varmint reticule. Great scope.
 
I suggest you see yourself paying at least the same for optics as the rifle if you want to go out to 1000yds!
 
This is why I love 8-shots' contributions to this forum so much!
 I've never understood why so many shooters impose such a limit on how much they will spend on a scope based upon what they paid for the rifle!  What does that have to do with anything?
We had a guy here a while back that WON a fine new rifle and didn't want to spend anything on the scope because he got the gun for nothing!  HELLOOOO?
 To my way of thinking, the scope is far more complex a piece of equipment than most rifles and probably more important to hunting and shooting success, within reason of course.
 Good optics cost a few bucks. Don't skimp there!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 12:38
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Whether or not you can reach 1000 yards and get a 100 yard zero with a slanted base or not depends entirely on the internal adjustment range of the scope you choose to mount on the rifle. 
Take an IOR 3-18x42 for example, you will need to add a 20 MOA base to reach 1000 yards, and you will still be able to get a 100 yard zero. 
Take a Super Sniper that has tons of internal adjustment and you would be able to reach 1000 yards and get a 100 yards zero with a flat base. 
Some Leupolds you could probably reach 1000 yards and a 100 yard zero with a flat base.
Basically if the scope has 100 MOA or more of adjustment you will be able to reach 1000 yards with a 100 yard zero with a flat base.  If the scope has less than 100 MOA down to about 65 MOA you should be able to reach 1000 yards and have a 100 yard zero if you add a 20 MOA base.  Less than 65 M0A to about 50 you will need to add a 30 MOA base and reaching 1000 and having a 100 yard zero becomes iffy on both ends.

All this is based on .308 ballistics
 
 And this is why I also love supertool 73s' contributions to this forum.  Well- stated, informative post!
 
 I think that Tip 69 has it pegged that you really need two different scopes to get the versatility you are looking for, not so much for being able to get zeroed both short and long-range, but because close, heavy cover low-light black bear hunting demands a wide field and a heavy reticle.


Edited by RONK - March/28/2008 at 12:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 12:42
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8 shots. what do you mean waiting for liscense? just wondering if i need some special permit for purchasing this rifle.
 
well what do you guys suggest for the best all around scope for what i want to do? Doing 1000yd paper shots prolly isnt going to happen too often but its a nice thought. i guess really i dont see my shots going much past 500yds. 700yds would most likely be pushing it. I guess i would like the availability to do the long range target shooting but i dont really need it.
 
im kind of intrested in the quick detach rings and 2 scopes idea. how hard would it be to do this and would it be possible to use the same mounts? where i hunt you rarely see a shot pushing 200yds and maybe 500 and the most. so i wouldnt really need the mil-dot recticle or target turrets for this. I think if i had a scope with a standard duplex recticle and sighted in at a 100yds i could do the rest im sure. If i went with the quick detach rings would it be possible to keep the scopes the same brand or would i have to go with 2 different brands?
 
I was looking at the Leupold Mark 2™ Long Range/Tactical Riflescope in a 4-12 power but if i cant get the adjustment from keeping my zero at 100yds and going up to 1000 i dont really want that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 12:55
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If I were you I would get this scope.  http://www.swfa.com/pc-10157-292-ior-25-10x42-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
These rings
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10230-441-ior-heavy-duty-tactical-30mm-rings.aspx
This base, I think it will work with a left handed gun.  I would check with SWFA to make sure before you buy.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10243-444-ior-heavy-duty-picatinny-1-piece-base.aspx

This setup will give you plenty of adjustment to reach 1000 yards and get a 100 yard zero.  It will have a nice low end for hunting up close and 10x is good for 1000 yard shooting.  Most of the shooting I do I keep my IOR 3-18x on 10x even out to 1200 yards.  Once you start getting to high you have to start dealing with more mirage and it makes it tough to see your target clearly.  This scope also has the milradian turrets that you want and has a fantastic mil based reticle. 
I actually just traded one of my other IORs for this exact scope for an AR build that I am doing and am anxiously awaiting its arrival. 

The problem with quick detach is you will probably have to rezero every time you take them off.  It won't be off by much but it will most likely need some fine tuning each time you switch them.  If you get this IOR it will do everything you want and it is a fine scope.

As far as 8 shots he lives in South Africa, so they have strick gun laws there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 12:59
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Or if you want a little more power this one will do as well.  But it does not have the milradian turrets, it is in MOA.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10180-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 14:59
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I'm brand new here, and new to Miliradians as well as MOA calculations down-range, but here's my 2 cents on the subject that may sway you one way or the other.
 
The Mil Dot method is really great for approximating your range to target, particularly with human targets. The "mil size" of the target (for example, 19 inches is common, and is a general guideline for shoulder width) so when you see X mills on the shoulder width, you know the range is Y meters. You still have to calculate windage, angle and temperature for the newly determined range for your ammo in your gun (yes, it's complicated at range) but it can give an accurate enough range for center body mass hits.
 
Now, all that being said, the Mil system and MOA system do not neatly interchange. MOA makes far more sense (to me) on targets, because you know (or can determine) your range, and can see (in the spotter) how far off the X you are. You then adjust your MOA to get on the X. So, if you are at 300 yards, and you are 6 inches of the X low, you need to dial in +2MOA on the scope (assuming the scope is repeatable enough). For targets, I think this is MUCH easier, but I am learning the Mil Dot method, because my instructor is familiar with that method, and MOA is pretty straight-forward anyway.
 
I don't know how helpful this was, but since I'm new to this, take it with a grain of salt.
 
As far as changing scopes, I think you will be FAR better of spending the cost of a second scope to get one really nice one that does all you want. Every time you dismount either scope, you have to re-zero. It doesn't work like in the movies, where the guy assembles his rifle and makes a 200 meter shot on target...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 15:08
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I disagree that MOA is easier than Mil.  Your reticle is already in mil, so if you take a shot at say 500 yards and miss two mils to the right all you have to do is dial in 2 mils on your milradian knobs and you are right on on the next shot.  With MOA you have to calulate 2 mils at 500 yards which is 34 inches so that comes out be 6.75 MOAs blah blah blah, then 20 seconds later after typing crap in your calculator you can take the shot.  There is a whole lot more figuring in your head and math involved in making all the converisons from mil to MOA and vice vera.  Now if you bought a Nighforce with an MOA reticle and MOA adjustments then it would be easy.  But choosing a scope that only uses one system instead of two will always be simpler to use. 
It is not that hard to learn how to use scopes that run both systems, but if you can avoid it why not.


Edited by supertool73 - March/28/2008 at 15:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 15:12
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That is absolutely true, and I should have made that clear.
 
A Mil Dot scope is (typically) set in mills on the turrets, and cross hair scopes are (typically) in MOA. I'm quite sure either can be had either way if you wanted it.
 
If your scope is in Mills, you really need to stick to mills, and vice-versa.
 
Sorry if this was confusing!Loco
 
I'll throw a third wrench in the works too, with the BDC recticles...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 15:22
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Originally posted by J!m J!m wrote:

A Mil Dot scope is (typically) set in mills on the turrets, and cross hair scopes are (typically) in MOA. I'm quite sure either can be had either way if you wanted it.


That is not actually the case either.  Most tactical type scope use MOA adjustments and Mil based reticles.  There are now mostly in the last few years a few companies that are starting to offer more options as far as getting Milradian knobs to go with the mil based reticles. 
 
Quote I'll throw a third wrench in the works too, with the BDC recticles...


Don't you mean "worthless reticles"  Big%20Smile

By the way, welcome to the OT.  Glad to have another precision shooter among us.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 15:32
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

If I were you I would get this scope.  http://www.swfa.com/pc-10157-292-ior-25-10x42-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
These rings
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10230-441-ior-heavy-duty-tactical-30mm-rings.aspx
This base, I think it will work with a left handed gun.  I would check with SWFA to make sure before you buy.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10243-444-ior-heavy-duty-picatinny-1-piece-base.aspx

This setup will give you plenty of adjustment to reach 1000 yards and get a 100 yard zero.  It will have a nice low end for hunting up close and 10x is good for 1000 yard shooting.  Most of the shooting I do I keep my IOR 3-18x on 10x even out to 1200 yards.  Once you start getting to high you have to start dealing with more mirage and it makes it tough to see your target clearly.  This scope also has the milradian turrets that you want and has a fantastic mil based reticle. 
I actually just traded one of my other IORs for this exact scope for an AR build that I am doing and am anxiously awaiting its arrival. 

The problem with quick detach is you will probably have to rezero every time you take them off.  It won't be off by much but it will most likely need some fine tuning each time you switch them.  If you get this IOR it will do everything you want and it is a fine scope.

As far as 8 shots he lives in South Africa, so they have strick gun laws there.
 
 I have that scope and love it as a medium to long range rig. It has many outstanding features, and awesome glass BUT I think you may be disappointed in it's short-range usefulness.  True, it goes down to 2.5x, but has a rather severe "tunnel" effect at that power, and being FFP. the reticle is very thin.  Mine is used at about 5-10x only, most of the time.  I don't like the way it works below that range.
 My Vari-X III works a lot better turned way down than my IOR does, for me, at least...
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I disagree that MOA is easier than Mil.  Your reticle is already in mil, so if you take a shot at say 500 yards and miss two mils to the right all you have to do is dial in 2 mils on your milradian knobs and you are right on on the next shot.  With MOA you have to calulate 2 mils at 500 yards which is 34 inches so that comes out be 6.75 MOAs blah blah blah, then 20 seconds later after typing crap in your calculator you can take the shot.  There is a whole lot more figuring in your head and math involved in making all the converisons from mil to MOA and vice vera.  Now if you bought a Nighforce with an MOA reticle and MOA adjustments then it would be easy.  But choosing a scope that only uses one system instead of two will always be simpler to use. 
It is not that hard to learn how to use scopes that run both systems, but if you can avoid it why not.
 I agree that the reticle and turrets should use the same system, whichever you choose. It just makes things less complicated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 15:42
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

If I were you I would get this scope.  http://www.swfa.com/pc-10157-292-ior-25-10x42-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
These rings
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10230-441-ior-heavy-duty-tactical-30mm-rings.aspx
This base, I think it will work with a left handed gun.  I would check with SWFA to make sure before you buy.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10243-444-ior-heavy-duty-picatinny-1-piece-base.aspx

This setup will give you plenty of adjustment to reach 1000 yards and get a 100 yard zero.  It will have a nice low end for hunting up close and 10x is good for 1000 yard shooting. 
 
as far as the adjustments how do the target turrets work? is it 1/4 moa or 1/2 moa clicks? Also i wanted to buy a ballastic program like the one from nightforce. would it work well this scope?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 15:53
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That scopes adjustments are in Milradians.  MOA and Milradian are two entirely different systems.  You stated you wanted a milradian scope at first so I assumed realized the difference.  A mil based scope is setup in the metric system.  So the reticle and the adjustments work together.  So 10 clicks on the adjustments equals 1 mil which is the same as 1 mil on the reticle.  The reticle changes sizes with the power so no mater what power you are on the clicks and the mils is the reticle always remain the same and work together.

In a scope with a mil reticle and MOA adjustments then you have to start doing conversions and they get a bit more complicated.  They are not difficult to do, just takes more time and possbily a calculator or a Mil-dot master.  1 MOA is about 1 inch and there are 3.43 MOAs  in one Mil.  So you can see the systems don't work seemlessly together, which like I said is okay it just takes a little more work.  But many shooters have been doing it for a long time and it works fine, its just the metric system is easier.

Ronk does have a good point about the reticle getting that small.  So if you are okay with an MOA adjustment type scope them maybe you should get one with MOAs then the reticle won't change sizes as the power goes up and down. 


Edited by supertool73 - March/28/2008 at 19:08
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2008 at 16:52
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

That scopes adjustments are in Milradians.  MOA and Milradian are two entirely different systems.  You stated you wanted a milradian scope at first so I assumed realized the difference.  
 
I didnt know the difference or have ever used a tactical scope. thats why i came to this site trying to learn. im assuming the scope you suggested would be the easiest way to learn since being a beginer on using the moa or milradian adjustments.
 
im sure after purchasing whatever scope someone thinks would be the best to go with im still going to need help understand the how to adjust windage and elevation and still keep my zero at the same time.
 
keep the info comming. just trying to learn
 
 
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No problem helping you out more.  At this point if you have decided on one scope I would probably get this one instead of the first one I listed.  http://www.swfa.com/pc-10156-292-ior-25-10x42-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
or maybe check this one out.  It is a new one from Bushnell that has a lot of promise, but I don't know of any of us who has been able to test one thoroughly yet.  But based on their other scopes I am betting it will be nice.  http://www.swfa.com/pc-12405-2172-new-bushnell-25-16x42-elite-6500-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx

The Milradian scope is for sure the simplest, but it is not the most common.  You take that to a range and most shooters would probably not have seen a milradian scope before.  So I don't know what to tell you to get for sure then.  Nothing wrong with a typical MOA adjustment scope with Mil dot reticle. 

I forgot to tell you about software.  Don't get the night force version just look up Exbal and buy it from the original developer.  http://www.perry-systems.com/
If you get the Night force version they have changed it to only include their reticles.  With the original they have some preloaded and you can create your own reticles in the program to help with your shooting needs.

As far as returning these target scopes to zero, that is slick.  after you get it initally zeroed, you just loosed a couple screws on the turrets just a bit and turn them so the zero is right on the mark.  Then when you start to move them one way or the other you can just turn them back when you are done.  Pretty slick
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thanks for all the info man. you have helped me out alot along with everyone else. Im glad you took the time to explain things to me that seemed greek. When i get rifle paid off and mount the scope i will let you guys know how it shoots.
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