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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2010 at 17:41
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Hello-
 
I am looking for a scope I can use for both work and personal use. I am looking for a high end scope. This seems to be the place to get some good advice for people that have had some hands on experience with more than standard issue. The scope will be used for a M24 at work and it's going to used on another .308 I purchase in near future.
 
Some of the scopes I have in mind are:
 
Premier Heritage 5-25x56
Zeis Hensoldt 6-24x56
U.S Oprics SN-3 SSDS
 
Some of the main things I am looking for in this next buy are:
Durability
Clarity
Function
Warranty - Lifetime only even if it rules out any
 
All input will be very appreciated,
RiP
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2010 at 17:53
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Rancid Coolaid has a Hensoldt 3-12x56, look in the review section for his review, that might help.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2010 at 19:24
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It may seem like a dumb question, but what manner of work?

I ask because 5X and 6X is ALLOT of low-end magnification, and 24X is usable only under the very best conditions.  I am familiar with M24s and know their purpose and usage, and, if you are doing anything similar to what most are with that gun, you may want to reconsider other magnification ranges.

I own the Hensoldt 3-12x56 (best scope I own for many reasons) and a Premier 3-15, both are outstanding.  Having owned several USOs, I wouldn't put it in the same league optically.  It is a very nice optic (the EREK is still my favorite elevation turret) but not among my favorites.

If you have the $$, I'd look to Hensoldt first.  The Premier is quite nice, but the Hensoldt is worth the little extra.  The site picture is best in the industry.

Also, if staying in that mag range, consider the new Zeiss 6-24, it is a little less $$ than the Hensoldt and has the locking turrets (pop up to move - not sure if I like them or not.)  I have spent some time behind a friend's and it is a nice scope. 

Another option is the new Vortex Razor, best warranty going, nice features, pretty damn good glass.

Clarify the purpose and we can point toward best fit.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2010 at 22:06
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Hi Rc,
 
That is a perfectly logical question and I completely understand why you ask especially planning on mounting it to a .308.
 
I just got back from the box and the next mission's will all be in Afghanistan on overwatch. The extra mag-x is really nice over there even on your sandy days.
The other reason I am thinking on the stronger magnification is later on I plan on mounting the scope on .300 WSM or .338 LM. 
Later on down the road I can purchase a scope w/ a weaker mag-x and mount it with the .308.
 
We currently are using the Leupold Mark4 3.5-10x40 and it just wasn't enough glass. Most of the time it was sufficient but not always.
 
On a serious note; how would you rate the Vortex Razor up against the more expensive scopes like your Hensoldt as far as durability and glass quality?
 
Thanks again,
RiP
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2010 at 22:33
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I really like my Premier 3-15X on one of my .308s and would certainly consider a Hensoldt if I really wanted the finest. But take a look too at the S&B 3-20X (should be out now). That's a fantastic mag range. I'd also consider USOs in the 3.2-17X or 3.8-22 range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 00:07
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Of the scopes you listed I would suggest the U.S Optics SN-3 SSDS. When you get to the higher powers you are going to find you will loose situational awareness and it is too easy for someone to enter your line of fire that you don't expect. The field of view is just too narrow.

S&B also makes good scopes and you might want to give them a look as well. 

Given the option I would suggest you go with the larger MOA clicks (0.5 and up) as well. Small adjustments are great for target, but my experience (24th ID) was that you just don't need that fine of an adjustment. Remember, you can get within 1/2 of the resolution of the click. In other words, 0.5 MOA clicks mean you can always be within 0.25 MOA of your target.

One last thought: Optimize for the job you are going to be doing out there. When you get back you can sell the scope, and buy the other one. Don't compromise performance for the job at hand - right tool for the right job. Worry about the .338 when you get back.

Just my two cents.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 10:00
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I agree with much of what was said above.

I was talking to an intel guy who spent 2009 in Afghanistan, he too had a 3.5-10X and mentioned the same issues, too little glass for too much landscape.

Given your task at hand, I'd consider either the Hensoldt or I'd call John III at USO and tell him exactly what you want and exactly when you need it.  Their Customer Service is fantastic, and especially for military who are deploying.  I wouldn't rate their glass in the same league with Hensoldt, but their scopes are tough and you can order a custom scope that exactly matches your needs (and their glass is entirely serviceable.)

I would recommend the EREK elevation knob.  Not sure I could recommend the SSDS, having not seen or played with one; however, I have owned several SN3s and it would be a great fit, 3.2-17 is a pretty nice range.  Also, be aware that hot days cause significant mirage, lower power on those days can be a life saver, literally!

In one area I agree 100% with graysteel: buy for the mission at hand, when the mission changes, change gear if needed.

Hensoldt glass is the best in my opinion.  Premier is damn fine too.  I hate >20X magnification for shooting simply because it transmits so much shooter movement to the reticle.  I would deploy with a good 3-15 (or thereabouts) and a good spotting scope.

Given your stated purpose, I'd buy a custom USO with the elevation and reticle you want.  They will take good care of you.  And their ARD is the best in the business, be sure to get one.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 11:28
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Originally posted by Graysteel Graysteel wrote:

Given the option I would suggest you go with the larger MOA clicks (0.5 and up) as well. Small adjustments are great for target, but my experience (24th ID) was that you just don't need that fine of an adjustment. Remember, you can get within 1/2 of the resolution of the click. In other words, 0.5 MOA clicks mean you can always be within 0.25 MOA of your target.


I would match clicks to the reticle. In other words, if you go with a mil-graduated reticle, stick with mil turrets to avoid doing any conversions. This is especially true of any FFP scope. If the idea of having coarser adjustments is to adjust more quickly, consider a scope with fast turrets. With a Premier 27 mil double-turn turret, for example, I can get out to 1000 yards in a little more than 3/4 of 1 turn off my 100-yard zero. (One full turn, incidentally, is enough at my typical altitudes to drop velocities to sub-sonic levels).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 13:17
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Agreed.

That is why I love the EREK: hard to get lost on the turret.

Matching turrets and reticle is a huge advantage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 13:27
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A lot of great advice! Wellllll... I will take a step back for now and keep researching. That Razor RC pointed out sounds excellent as well. There are so many nice scopes out there and I want them all! USO, S&B, ZEISS, Premier, Vortex etc.

I don't have a majic wallet every man dreams of. My budget is roughly $6,000 right now but that includes this next rifle build in .308. I am wanting to have 2 rifles built in near future one bolt action and the other semi-auto both shooting 168 Gn. I am planning on having the bolt action done first and that's what brings me here.
 
The more I spend on this scope the less I will have for rifle unless I wait and save more which seems the wisest thing to do. But than again maybe I should sacrifce optic's a little bit for rifle? I am ready to spend about 3 grand on a scope right now for quality glass.
 
Confused yet? I know I am...
Thanks a lot for the guidance gent's,
RiP
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 19:24
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One question though. Doesn't the S&B only have a 10 year warranty or something short like that? I had my heart set on one until reading that on their site. If I'm going to spend that kind of money I want a full lifetime warranty. I know the OP said that a lifetime warranty is also required for him. To me this was the only downfall I saw to S&B. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 21:30
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 I'm not in the  alpha league of scopes [maybe one day] but I do want to say THANKS for all your service & THANKS to your family.Stay low & come back safeAmerican Flag
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 22:00
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Originally posted by hometheaterman hometheaterman wrote:

One question though. Doesn't the S&B only have a 10 year warranty or something short like that? I had my heart set on one until reading that on their site. If I'm going to spend that kind of money I want a full lifetime warranty. I know the OP said that a lifetime warranty is also required for him. To me this was the only downfall I saw to S&B. 
 
With that being said I will not even take a look at their scope's. Weighing everything out I will take a lower end scope with the unconditional lifetime warranty "eg. Vortex Razor" long before I will a scope that cost a thousand more w/o hesitation. I suppose if I save a thousand I will be able to put that towards the next build or a can...
 
Well the process of elimination is still in effect.
Thanks for the input once again,
RiP
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 22:03
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Originally posted by stickbow46 stickbow46 wrote:

 I'm not in the  alpha league of scopes [maybe one day] but I do want to say THANKS for all your service & THANKS to your family.Stay low & come back safeAmerican Flag
 
Sorry, I didn't see your post sb. Thanks I really appreciate it. I'm back for now psychologicaly and physicaly sound. Atleast physicaly :)
 
Take care,
RiP
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 22:16
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Yep it's 10 years.
http://www.schmidtbender.com/warranty.shtml

To me this is crazy. A scope that costs over $3000 should have a lifetime warranty. Heck many $30-50 scopes even have that. I want a Schmidt and Bender scope badly, but I'm too afraid I will spend that much on it and it will last me 10 or 12 years then I will be out all of that money. If I'm going to spend $3000+ for a scope I want a promise that it will last me the rest of my life or if not they will take care of it.

It's a shame they don't offer a better warranty as it seems like they have the best scopes out there. Do the other high end companies offer a lifetime warranty?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 22:19
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Originally posted by hometheaterman hometheaterman wrote:

Yep it's 10 years.
http://www.schmidtbender.com/warranty.shtml

To me this is crazy. A scope that costs over $3000 should have a lifetime warranty. Heck many $30-50 scopes even have that. I want a Schmidt and Bender scope badly, but I'm too afraid I will spend that much on it and it will last me 10 or 12 years then I will be out all of that money. If I'm going to spend $3000+ for a scope I want a promise that it will last me the rest of my life or if not they will take care of it.

It's a shame they don't offer a better warranty as it seems like they have the best scopes out there. Do the other high end companies offer a lifetime warranty?

id get a zeiss then.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 22:45
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http://swfa.com/US-Optics-38-22x44-SN-3-35mm-Riflescope-P47399.aspx
either of these would be a fine choice but dont expect them to be in stock you need to call and plan well in advance of your need.  I really like having a scope be 1/10 mil clicks it just makes mil dot based reticles so much faster knowing you can combine hold over with dialing in a few tenths to get on target.  I would suggest you simply buy a Remmington R5 Mil Spec which has the same 11.25 twist barrel as the M -24 and same R5 rifling, and I also suggest you shoot heavier bullets Im shooting the 190 Sierra Matchking in mine with good results.  As well as the R5 shoots I see no need to go custom rifle.   The other good choice is the Remmington XCR long range tactical which is dark  TryNite finish over stainless but is a different twist.  Your long range work should be minimum 175gr SMK either Federal or Black Hills ammo unless you reload then forget the rest and just work with the 190 SMK.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - July/19/2010 at 22:52
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2010 at 01:07
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I hate to degrade anything especially a fine piece of artwork like the S&B's. Any good scope company should offer a lifetime warranty especially when you are paying THREE THOUSAND dollars for it.

My choices included S&B until I found out about their "limmited" lifetime warranty. One of my primary choices was replaced by a cheaper scope with a "unconditional" lifetime wannanty; that being the Vortex Razor I just leared about here from RC. It's nice knowing I can beat someone to death with a scope and send it back to get it fixed no matter what.
 
So with that being said lets talk about warranty alone:
 
Vortex: Unconditional lifetime warranty
USO: Lifetime product warranty "on most product's"
Zeiss: Lifetime transferable warranty "you'll pay for repair's"
Premier:  Lifetime warranty
 
I am strongly leaning towards the Premier after reading for hours and hours on it at different websites. There was quite a nice argument at Snipers Hide about the scope that was rather enjoyable lol.
 
Cheers,
RiP
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2010 at 09:39
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Originally posted by hometheaterman hometheaterman wrote:


It's a shame they don't offer a better warranty as it seems like they have the best scopes out there. Do the other high end companies offer a lifetime warranty?


Not sure how you are defining your terms, but I would argue that S&B ain't the best scope out.

Anyone looking to spend $2500+ on an optic, I highly (HIGHLY!) recommend you look through the options before dropping the cash on it.  What someone else sees or says about a particular scope might not be what you see.

And a note on USO's warranty: they go far beyond what is necessary to take care of their customers, I wouldn't worry about their warranty.  I've sent back a few USOs for a few reasons and never had a problem with them.

As for the Hide, I like the Hide, I am a member, but the testosterone levels can be off the chart.  I much prefer the tone of Optics Talk.  Some guys there are the real deal, many are not.  As with all things optics, be wary of those doling out second or thrid-hand info (quoting from wiki articles are gun mags); a surprising number of optics and fire arms "experts" have no real knowledge.

Carry on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2010 at 12:51
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I have to agree about the hide RC lol. Maybe it has to do with so many members owning guns in there. You have a big mix of old/young/civilian/military/leo etc. A lot of those folk are like fire and water.
 
Anyhow I have decided on the PR 5-25x56 for the next scope. I found another way to get an extra $1000.
 
How long is the wait time for this nail ponder?
 
Thanks,
RiP
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2010 at 13:11
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I think you'll find a lot to like about the Premier. Do make sure you're comfortable with the reticle choice. I like the Gen 2 mil-dot just fine and consider the XR reticles a little thin @ low magnification. http://www.premierreticles.com/technical/ Some of the best features are:

1) The placement of the illumination control
2) The MTC clicks (licensed from USO)
3) The tool-less zero reset
4) The turrets themselves

Much thought went into the engineering and practicality of these scopes and they're well-made. The glass is beautiful. About the only complaints I've heard that I take seriously are both relatively minor:

1) Dust and sand sometimes get around the lens covers in extreme environments (add something like a ScopeShield)

2) The clicker metal in the turrets was a little soft in early scopes. Premier will gladly mail you a replacement set. I got one just to have around and have yet to feel any need to replace them.

Urimaginaryfrnd's suggestion of the Rem. 5R Mil-spec isn't bad. I went that route but you will have to send the stainless steel barrel and action off the be nitrided or similar to make it more discreet. I have always loved my LTR for various reasons, among them its dark parkerized finish. I like the 5R better and it shoots like a dream for $1K. But man, could Remington have just not gone with the matte silver finish?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2010 at 13:22
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I just got off the phone with Randy @ PR and he said the scopes are being sent out in about 2 weeks to (PI?) in Canada and going to distributors whoever ordered them 1st. He said these scopes have some improvement's made from review's and the shot show.
 
Well with that being said I am going to get on the phone here and start making some phone calls to see where I can land one of these.
 
RiP
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SWFA should have them inbound.

I agree on the 5R, money well spent.

And, of the PR reticles, I too go for the mil dot.  I am no fan of busy reticles.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2010 at 21:17
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

SWFA should have them inbound.

I agree on the 5R, money well spent.

And, of the PR reticles, I too go for the mil dot.  I am no fan of busy reticles.
 
I called them and they hhad no record of having any on orderad. All the PR Hetitage's are going to Canada for some company to ship them out... Contracts and business can be weird sometimes. They than ship them to whatever company put shipments in from there. Maybe they helped fun PR?
 
I called around and I think it was Liberty Optic's that was expecting them in around mid august. I'm going to call Liberty Optic's back up and see if I can pre-order.
 
Cheers,
RiP
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


As for the Hide, I like the Hide, I am a member, but the testosterone levels can be off the chart.  I much prefer the tone of Optics Talk.  Some guys there are the real deal, many are not.  As with all things optics, be wary of those doling out second or thrid-hand info (quoting from wiki articles are gun mags); a surprising number of optics and fire arms "experts" have no real knowledge.

Carry on.


Right.. why do people weigh in that have no direct experience with the product?
I am lurking and learning as I do not have the experience and expertise on this subject..
good info though

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