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Scope adjusting problem

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 17:26
Domanating View Drop Down
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hi all!

I would like some help to solve an issue with a new scope i bought and shipped (Portugal)
I have a Leapers 5th generation 3-9x40mm scope for 4 days now and it's mounted on a Gamo Shadow 1000 air rifle. The scope rings i ordered were the wrong size for the gun dovetail so i bought ones here and they've done the trick.
I target practiced a lot with this scope trying to zero it in. It makes great groups at 20yards. The problem comes when i try to adjust the knobs. They are just a "bit" too responsive.

Example:

I fire 3 shots. They are not were i aimed but they all almost fit in the same hole. They are a bit to the right so i adjust the knob 3 clicks to the left. Instead of giving me slightly to the left shots i get some random shots all over the place for the first 3/4 shots then it starts to stabilize in a new area with perfect groups. But instead of about 1cm to the left i get 10cm to the left and 5 cm high shots just like that and i didn't even touch the vertical knob.

I then put the gun perfectly still and watched the reticle moving as i turned the windage knob. It moved perfectly well, moving very slowly at each click. I mean, one click was almost imperceptible.
How is it possible that after 3 clicks to the left i get the 1st shot completely random and after more 2/3 random shots it finally settles a group in the opposite side of the target (with dead on precision however)?

And this doesn't happen just with windage but with the vertical knob too. whenever i move the vertical knob the shots can get lower or higher according to my needs but they will also go a lot to the right or left even though i never moved the windage knob.

It's pretty frustrating because it already happened to me 4 times when i have 1 adjustment left for a perfect bulseye group, it shifts to a completely new area on the paper (still with high precision)

Can anyone tell me whats wrong? is it the scope or am i doing something wrong? I know from what i've read, Leapers ain't very popular but i must say, this scope has done very nice groups. The knobs on the other hand, seem to work fine when i look through the reticle but they apparently lie 20 yards away Whacko
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 17:36
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How did you go about mounting your scope? How did you tighten your rings?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 17:46
Domanating View Drop Down
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with an hexagonal screwdriver that they sent with the scope, plus batteries, manual... pretty much everything. Although they were not the rings of the same company (because the ones i bought were not the correct size), the screwdriver also worked for the new rings i bought here. My air gun has a scope stop included so no chance of sliding along the dovetail.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 17:54
Domanating View Drop Down
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Forgot to mention, if you think the scope is tilted i used that object, whose name i forgot that has a bubble in it to make it perfectly leveled with the air gun. I let it be during all the process of aligning and tighten the rings.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 18:00
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I would guess that you may have over tightened your rings since you did it with a screwdriver and not a torque wrench. The torque setting for  most rings is somewhere between 15 and 25 in/lbs *Yes inch pounds) not sure what the metric setting is though. And if your rings were not aligned correctly that could also cause an issue. Mounting scopes is topic that has been discussed many times here on the OT. So I would do a search on scope mounting here.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 18:17
Domanating View Drop Down
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Never seen such thing as a torque wrench, curious tool though. I know that i had to shim the rings a bit to align the scope properly. Without shims i run out of adjustments to make the scope even hit the paper. Without shims the gun was firing too low and to the right at the scopes limit. It's fixed now but maybe it might contribute to my problem?
I don't even know how this issue could have anything to do with my problem. If it was that, shouldn't every shot be completely random? I mean not even groups forming...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 18:49
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Originally posted by Domanating Domanating wrote:

Never seen such thing as a torque wrench, curious tool though. I know that i had to shim the rings a bit to align the scope properly. Without shims i run out of adjustments to make the scope even hit the paper. Without shims the gun was firing too low and to the right at the scopes limit. It's fixed now but maybe it might contribute to my problem?
I don't even know how this issue could have anything to do with my problem. If it was that, shouldn't every shot be completely random? I mean not even groups forming...


If you had to use shims. Something is wrong. Sounds like the front ring is taller than the rear ring and they are not aligned. But without seeing it, it is hard for me to tell for sure. And definitely No to the last two questions you asked. If the shims are twisting your scope and so it is not moving properly it will bind and the recoil of your air rifle will then move the adjustment and once it has settled then you will get groups.

A torque wrench is a tool that allows you to tighten nuts, bolts screws or what ever to a specific tightness and also allows you to have the same tightness on all fasteners which is very important.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 07:32
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Quite a few scopes exhibit the characteristic of not moving immediately all the way to a new setting.  Thats why some people make teh practice of thumping the butt down on a hard surface to impart a shock to the scope just like firing it would.  This jarring helps the internal erectors of the scope to settle into their new position.  This being said I don't think that is your problem but a symptom.
 
From your description your mounts are onto a dovetailed receiver.  there should be no reason for you to have to shim your scope.   I'm a bit confused as to how you did this with that style rings.
Shimming would cause a misalignment between the two rings and cause a torgue to be applied to the scope tube.  Enough torgue and the internals will bind and could be what your seeing after adjustments are made.  I'm at a loss of how to bore sight the scope unless you have a laser boresighter to stick in the end of the barrel.
 
You said when you first mounted the scope it was off paper low.  I'd swap the rings front to back and see if that makes the guns shoot off paper high.  That would indicate bad rings.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 08:57
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Firts of all, I'd recommend to buy a mount, not rings. On spring operated air rifles rings may "slide" on dovetail. Even if u have a special stop adapter on dovetail, rings (if they are cheap chinese or leapers ones) will be damaged. This will ruin your accuracy and scope.

Also, leapers has kinda bad turrets system, I was using one 3-9x40 and I had enough problems to replace it.

Leapers is "set up it once, and don't touch anything again" patented system Big Grin

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 09:39
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Also, your scope may be already damaged by the recoil. As we all know, spring rifles has two side recoil, especially if you use lightweight pellets, or maybe u have too much grease inside rifle, which may cause combustion effect (called diesel effect in my country, dunno how about yours). If you're 100% sure your scope is ok, check the wrenches on the turrets, they are tiny and hidden under factory made holes (protected with some sticky material). Because of recoil these wrenches may go weak, and you may need to tight them again.

Sorry for me english, any other questions are welcome.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 09:43
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Welcome to the OT Sgt!  English is fine.... whats your native tongue?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 13:42
Domanating View Drop Down
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Thanks all for the comments.

Ok so i decided to start from the beginning, this time swapping the rings. They were still low but the windage problem was solved. Also the knobs were "obeying" to the changes and random shots were drastically reduced. Still i needed to add a shim to the back ring to point the scope downwards. It worked but then the shots started to get all over the place.

In addition, Sgt. Poulton might be right as the rings cannot hold on to the rifle. As though i have the scope stop and once again SGt. Poulton got it right, the mounts seem to be sliding. I noticed when i saw something similar to iron fillings along the dovetail close to where the mounts stand. The "hooks" that hold to the dovetail are literally disintegrating. Each side lost about 1mm of iron or whatever that's made of. The rings are not from leapers. I bought leapers rings with the scope but they were the wrong size (26mm) and the dovetail of my gun is 11mm. So i bought the Gamo rings you can see on the pics.
It might be bad quality but i think small rings like those just weren't able to hold such a massive scope.

I don't know the difference between rings and mounts? I thought they were the same thing. I deduce you mean rings that are just one piece instead of 2.





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 13:43
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Jesus Christ!!
How do i edit the reply in this forum?! My images are monsters!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 13:46
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Need 50 posts to edit
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 14:09
Domanating View Drop Down
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Oh, lol. That's a weird rule. Thanks for deleting them though

Anyway, i fixed to photos:





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 00:18
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Hello everyone! 

Domanating, Leapers 3-9x40 is rather strong scope, builded for high recoil airguns. I've been using one on Diana 350 Magnum (RWS 350 in USA), and it works fine for me. The only problem I faced was turrets. There's some rules you need to follow if u want your scope will live on airgun.

Forget about rings on dovetail. Rings are acceptable only for weaver/picattiny

Always keep your gun grease free, combusting damages inner rifle and increases recoil.

Use heavy pellets, at least 10.5 grains (I recommend Crosman Premier or JSB, depends on your barrel) If you use lightweight pellets (7,5 grains or less) you will have higher recoil, this damages both rifle and scope too.

Used to shot Gamo Shadow 1000, nice rifle, and i bet that leapers can handle it.


Hey, budperm! My native language is russian. I came to OT to ask for advice with choosing a scope, and I liked a community, seems like I'm staying Smile

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 05:58
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My Shadow 1000 is a .22 and my pellets weight usually is 15.4 grains. The pellets you advised don't exist here. The only brands i could find were Gamo and Diabolo, being Gamo a much better quality pellet manufacturer.
I bought this scope exactly because i needed something that could withstand the recoil. I had 2 smaller scopes that couldn't hold zero because of heavy recoil. The mounts of those 2 scopes were able to stay in position though. Unfortunately the rings are too small for the leapers.

Weaver/picattiny mounts are rare here. I could only spot 1 or 2 products in one Portuguese store online. The prices are.... overwhelming.
Are those that good? Because the weaver must fit the dovetail and then the rings fit the weaver, that would add another problem for the sliding factor: dovetail/weaver, weaver/ring and ring/scope.

How about 1 piece rings? The only thing that puzzled me about these mounts is, can they fit any scope? I mean with 2 piece mounts you can choose where to place them on the scope, but with 1 piece you cant move the rings independently. It might be a very stupid question but i never used 1 piece mounts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 07:25
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Absolutely, you don't need to switch to weaver. You need to find rings base like this one:

Didn't know u have .22 cal gamo shadow Shocked

But gamo pellets are awful quality, you can check their weight with digital scales and also head and botton sizes, they usually differ from pellet to pellet.

The best .22 cal pellets are JSB 5,52 or 5,51 Exact Jumbo Diabolo, you can google those. I'm pretty sure there are some shops around who sell it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 07:43
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Sgt Poulton has  some great advice.  As far as using the dovetail in your receiver action...You probably got away with using it with smaller lighter scopes and better fitting rings.  Wow thats some base/ring combo Sgt!   Another choice is using Talley light weight mounts which are all one piece (base and ring). I use them on all my Hi Powered rifles and never have a problem.  This would require having the receiver drilled and tapped for them.  Gives a really clean look and keeps weight down!
Talley Lightweight Aluminum Scopemount DEMO-B
You would probably have to contact Talley direct to see if they have ones for your airrifle.  Even if they don't, they will make them custom quite reasonably!  Talley has great Customer Service too!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 08:11
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Okay I just popped out to eBay and found mount/rings like sgt just posted.
Leeper UTG for under $20US!  Talley can't touch that price.  With the full length
dove tail contact surface on those they should stay put on a Howitzer! Cool
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 09:40
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UTG (Leapers, center-point and sniper) are made on by same manufacturer. Price is low, u can find those even for 10$, but you can't expect good quality from itWink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 11:04
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Originally posted by sgt. Poulton sgt. Poulton wrote:

But gamo pellets are awful quality, you can check their weight with digital scales and also head and botton sizes, they usually differ from pellet to pellet.

The best .22 cal pellets are JSB 5,52 or 5,51 Exact Jumbo Diabolo, you can google those. I'm pretty sure there are some shops around who sell it.



If you think Gamo is bad quality, you didn't see anything yet. Try some Diabolo Pellets, you'll soon understand that you're better aiming by throwing the rifle rather than shooting Big Grin

The Talley light weight mounts sound great and i never seen them before. I would still need an extra hole to fit those.

I'll maybe try the 1 piece mount.
There are many lengths: 8cm, 10cm, 12cm...  Maybe i should take measurements of the scope


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 11:24
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Hehe, well maybe you're right about pellets, but if you have a chance yo use JSB or H&N - switch to them :)

Try once piece mount, I think 10cm will fit your leapers well.

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