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Schmidt Bender scopes?????

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 21:51
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 Does Schmidt Bender outclass the other big name scopes like Zeiss or Swarovski ? I notice a big cost difference in Schmidt and the other big name scope companies. Is the difference in the clarity and low light gathering capabilities worth the extra cost ? I purchase a scope for it's low light ability and clarity. I guess what I am asking is if the Schmidt Bender that much better than the other scopes and is it worth the price difference?    
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 21:57
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the only thing i can say to you about this (because i have only looked through zeiss) s&b cant make a $2500 piece of crap scope and be in business for long, if something costs that much it better back it up with the goods, cause it wouldnt take long to get around this world that they are ripping people off, so i would say there must be something special about the s&b scopes not to say that zeiss swaro and kahles dont make bad scopes cause all of these companies make great scopes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 23:01
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I would say that the optical uality in Zeiss outperformes Smith u bender.

Light gathering, FOV, low light capabilitys and weight.

 

But SuB have a far better reputation military than Zeiss/Hensoldt has and that is for it's mechanical solutions and the the adjustmensts.

 

I have seen new sights from both companies that never should have left the factory, so I can't personally say that SuB is mechanically better.

Swarovski is behind Zeiss as well in it's optical quality so I prefer Zeiss.

That said I have SuB 3-12x42, 4-16x50 Varmind and PM11 4-16x60 and I use them quite frequently.

But when the light really is needed I take the Zeiss.

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 07:25
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shoot4fun,

Depending on the model scopes you're comparing, S&B is not necessarily more expensive than Zeiss or Swaro.  In fact, the Swaro Z6 is now pretty much the most expensive 30mm hunting scope you can buy.  Leaving out the tactical and specialty scopes from S&B and Zeiss, Swaro across the board is the most expensive of the "big 3" in sports optics.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 07:59
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THe Z6 series and espsially the 1,7-10 is for my daylight use the most versalite scope i tested. But for nighttime, I don't think they have anything that is close to zeiss.

Unfortunately do I not have that money now.........

 

Regards Technika



Edited by www.technika.nu
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 18:06
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technika I will agree with you about Zeiss having the best light transmission. I have compared S&B, Swarovski PH, and the Zeiss Diavari and the Zeiss stays in the low light game a little longer than the other two.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 18:18
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I have owned both and I would agree that the German made Zeiss scopes have the better glass.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2007 at 20:49
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As far as hunting scopes are concerned - there are too many choices based on what you value in the scope. When it comes to tactical scopes
I think there are only two really good choices - Zeiss/Hensoldt and Schmidt & Bender. Some people would also say high-end Nightforce and Leupold are good choices, but
my personal opinion is that S&B and Zeiss/Hensoldt really own this segment in terms of quality.

Zeiss scope are designed, engineered and manufactured using glass that is designed and manufactured by Schott in Germany.
Schott belongs to Zeiss.

Two manufacturers in the world that have the most extensive selection of best optical glass are Schott in Germany and Ohara in Japan. Of the two
Schott is the best one. Ohara is distant second. Everyone else is an "also ran" and specialty makers with niche markets.

When it comes to Schmidt & Bender riflescopes though, the fact that Zeiss has superior optical glass becomes less significant for variety of reasons.

Number one is that S&B designs their scopes with shooting purpose in mind. They're designed to give the shooter ability to make the shot under real world conditions,
which are never perfect. Therefore the coating that they use on lenses as well as lenses themselves are designed with that in mind. They're quite known for excellent
transmission of light in blue spectrum for example, making it much easier to see your target in early morning or after sunset before the stars come out.
The glass that S&B uses is made on their factory in Hungary (http://www.schmidt-bender.hu/start.html).

The best thing about S&B I think is the all inclusive design. They don't design the scope to be just excellent optically. It also needs to have the right "interface" - in other words
the reticle, knobs, quality of manual and so forth. When you buy S&B, you buy something that had been designed to be really useable for a shooter. In terms of mechanical design,
variation of S&B PMII LP scope has won USMC contract, beating all other competitors, which is a pretty good indication of ruggedness. Price was not taken into direct consideration
by the way.

There is one issue that is worth noting though. A Finnish gun magazine published very extensive test report couple years ago where they tested many different scopes
and found that Schmidt & Bender had slight shift in their reticle adjustment. Zeiss reticle adjustment is perfectly square - adjusting elevation never has any effect on
windage. With S&B they found that adjusting elevation may shift reticle laterally, by up to 0.3mrad.  That's 30cm at 1000 meters, which might be significant for certain purposes.
They have used special optical testing equipment to find that out, so it's not a result of shooting in the field where other conditions may influence the result.

It's entirely possible since then that S&B improved their reticle adjustment system, but I'm not aware of it.

When it comes to customer service though, don't expect either Zeiss or S&B to really help you in US if you have a complicated question or problem. If it's something simple,
such as trivial repair or trivial question - they can help you. If it's something more complicated -  it would have to go through Germany, which with Zeiss would be faster.
You can expect wait times of 7-15 days to get any response from S&B in Germany if you have any question for example and you sent your question in English.
I guess if you ask in German the answer could be faster, but don't know for sure.

Despite all this however, as an overall package, after thinking about it for a long time I decided to get myself PMII instead of Zeiss Tactical or Hensoldt.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 02:44
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S&B scopes are certainly very good.  Whether they are worth the money is a personal choice, certainly.  I think they are well designed scopes with excellent glass and mechanicals.  As an overall optical/mechanical package, Zeiss may be a touch better due to, generally, wider field of view and larger adjustment range.  However, I think S&B's illumination scheme is better designed.

That having been said, if I were in the market for a high dollar tactical scope, I would get the SN3 from US Optics.  For that kind of money I expect a scope precisely configured for what I want.  Only US Optics offers that kind of customization and their customer service is beyond reproach.  As far as clarity and resolution are concerned, any difference you may find between top brands like Zeiss/Hensoldt, S&B and US Optics is absolutely inconsequential.  All are very good.  The only difference that matters is how well a particular scope fits your specific application.  For this kind of money, it better be a perfect fit. 

S&B Short Dot may be the one scope without an obvious equivalent from other makers (at least until I get some time behind a Swaro Z6i 1-6x24 with illuminated circle dot reticle and Kahles CSX 1.1-4x24).

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 06:28
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I agree with Koshkin, SN3 is the way to go, given unlimited budget and timeframe.  Having said that, I want an S&B PMII eventually -but have an SN3 on the way.

 

Also, for spreader: if Schott is the main contributing factor, IOR should be on your list. Their glass comes from the same place as Zeiss and S&B and their scopes are great values at a significnatly lower price point.

 

S&B makes good stuff, among the very best; but "among" and "the" aren't quite equivalent.  As others have said, circumstances and needs dictate what is best at that time - and it may not be best at another time.

 

And damn I need to spell check these things!



Edited by Rancid Coolaid
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 08:31
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http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11425

 

Maybe the Marines should have went with the SN-3's??

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 12:41
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Cheap, thanx for that.  I don't visit or post there so I was unaware of those issues (most of the guys I know are out now and doing other things - or back in Iraq or Afghanistan as private security contractors.)

 

That will inlfuence my decision to invest in an S&B.  Granted, the kinda life a scope lives in that field is very different from what it would live in my gunsafe and with ocasional use.  The field is an accelerated lifespan test - no question.

 

And yea, SN3 might have been the way to go.  I'm sure S&B discoutned the hell outta those guys whereas USO probably wouldn't.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 12:53
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Well, to say I was severely disappointed when S&B got the Marine contract instead of USO would be an understatement....  

 

I'm sure the good people that chose the PM II's for the Marine snipers went with the optic that they thought would meet the needs of the 8541's in the field. But it hurt me just the same.

 

I just thought I would pass this thread on.....I can't help but wonder if the SN-3's would have given better service though..... 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 14:45
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First of all, scopes that USMC gets are finished by Premier Reticles in Virginia.
In other words, *complete* assembly happens there. If there is a quality control issue, it's right there in Virginia, not at S&B in Germany.

Second thing is, USMC is paying slightly over $1700 for each of those new USMC S&B Gen2 MilDot scopes. Price was not an issue, see original req here:

http://www.cbd-net.com/index.php/search/show/794618

Third thing is - in the field, even the best design can fail. Unertls had lots of those and remained in service for decades.

As far as US Optics goes - I still don't understand why would anyone make a MilDot scope with MOA clicks. Makes no sense whatsoever, you waste time doing conversion. For sniper in the field it's a difference between making a shot and missing it. SN3 may be good on paper. It didn't win the contract though.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 14:52
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You can get an SN3 with any kind of clicks you want, be it metric or MOA and a nice variety of reticles.  Those are all standard options.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 15:09
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Originally posted by spreader spreader wrote:

First of all, scopes that USMC gets are finished by Premier Reticles in Virginia.
In other words, *complete* assembly happens there. If there is a quality control issue, it's right there in Virginia, not at S&B in Germany.

 

That's kinda weak there spreader, don't you think?? So it's PR fault now??

S&B's still liable, at least in my opinion, because THEY sub'd it out to PR.    

That dog won't hunt, my friend!! 

 

Yeah, The Dark One beat me to it but USO offers a MOA reticle that compliments the MOA clicks perfectly. I know because I had one. 

USO probably wouldn't have had to sub it out to PR if they had the contract.....

 

As Rancid stated, out there in the boonies with these people, (I assume) this gear takes a real beating. No one's stuff is immune from failure and according to the thread I posted, "they" have taken measures to rectify the problems.    

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 16:32
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koshkin,

Didn't know SN3 can be made any way the customer wants. Thanks for correction.

cheaptrick,

Yes, it's PR fault, not S&B. AFAIK US Army and Marine regulations call for most contracted work to be done in US. S&B had no choice but to contract it out to someone local in USA. Since Premier Reticles owns the patent on Gen2 MilDot (and they're the ones that supply it for S&B to install in their other scopes), PR was the best logical choice.
If you recall Beretta had to build a factory in Maryland to produce their 92FS here for US Army contract.

If PR took the steps to fix the problem, it's certainly good news for Marine out in the field risking their lives to protect ours. It doesn't however change the fact that it was problem with PR manufacturing/assembly/QA control and not S&B.





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:01
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Spreader, we'll have to agree to disagree with this one, my Brother.

The more you explain the situation, the more I think it sucks.

 

S&B won the contract...Right?  

 

Most contracted work needs to done CONUS, according to you and I'm sure your right.

Excellent point about Beretta. Touché. 

 

S&B doesn't have any QC people running around there checking these things before they go out from PR?!?!?  

S&B cashes the checks and gets to strut around cuz they got the contract, but yet hold no liability?? Really??   Wow!

 

I agree that according to the gent in the post I provided PR seems to have had some issues of sorts, but to totally exonerate Schmidt and Bender seems crazy. At least to me... Peace!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:01
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I get the impression that some believe the government buys things like we do as individuals, based on quality & price. Many government purchases are determined by who has what lobbyist or friends & relatives in Washington or who employees what retired general or senator on the company board. I have seen this apply in large purchases & small. The point is that we cannot take a government purchase as evidence of "best" quality.
 
Duce 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:05
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Duce,

I agree with that point. In this particular case though, I doubt that's what happened. Marines wanted variable power scope. They wanted it fast, they wanted something that works rightaway. It's under these conditions that the best stuff is usually procured. Lobbyist/relative/friend kind of scheme usually works on things that take a long time to procure. That Beretta contract I'm quite certain had a big dose of that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:06
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Originally posted by Duce Duce wrote:

I get the impression that some believe the government buys things like we do as individuals, based on quality & price. Many government purchases are determined by who has what lobbyist or friends & relatives in Washington or who employees what retired general or senator on the company board. I have seen this apply in large purchases & small. The point is that we cannot take a government purchase as evidence of "best" quality.
 
Duce 

 

I agree for the most part, but I sincerely believe that the folks that chose the PM II for the Marines did so out of a pure heart.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:23
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cheaptrick,

Okay, let me get this straight. We're emitting large amounts of vapor arguing the quality of finished product based on one post on one particular internet bulletin board?

As far as S&B quality people being here in US. I'm quite certain they either don't have anyone here or they don't have any authority over manufacturing at PR. Most of S&B employees in Germany probably don't even speak English anyway, so even if they did send someone to oversee production at PR in Virginia, I'm certain there is very little they can do about the process. They can only set basic set of quality benchmarks, which would be definitely lower than their home-base factory. US-made Zeiss Conquests are good, but nowhere near as good as German-made Diavaris. Lexus just recently finally got their US assembly to reach quality of Japan-based factories. Remember movie "Gung Ho" ?

Premier Reticle is official supplier of S&B designed scopes to US Marine Corps. S&B provided design and most likely provides optical glass. I don't know who makes the tubes, knobs and other metal parts, but I think it would be S&B only part of the way. Premier Reticle however is official maker of the scopes, they make the sale, they offer support. If the scope that had failed did so because of flaw of design by S&B - then sure S&B is partly to blame. If it failed due to parts sourced by PR - it's entirely fault of PR.

It's up to PR to notice the problem in design, since they're the official supplier of these scope to USMC. I suspect however that what had happened is that S&B under contract supplies major components, whereis PR manufactures/sources smaller parts. Since PR performs final assembly, it's PRs product in every way. Poor quality of 1911 clones made in China would have nothing to do with John Moses Browning's design, even if they used parts made by say Springfield.

To put it even in simpler terms. Suppose you have designs for Leica M camera. Unless you have been working for Leica for a long time - good luck achieving their level of quality when making that camera. Just about any company that tried had failed. Same works with every other complicated product - having plans/designs/specs is no guarantee of proper assembly.

Since it seems that so far these are the only issues that affected this scope (and that PR admitted and fixed), I'd say that Marines got something they can truly rely on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:25
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I hope so but I know that is not always the case & I think they should try to buy American if possible.

 

Duce   

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Duce,

Agree with that. It's a matter of national security, so they should rely on people that have an interest in protecting this Free Nation. In real world however it's a simple fact of life that Germans are really good at optics.
And that means that if the best product happens to be German-made - so be it. As far as I'm concerned, if it does the job better than anything else, I don't care where it's made - South Africa, Zimbabwe or Germany.
It makes no logical sense for Marines (or Army) to source inferior products then. If the enemy is better armed or has better equipment than what US-based companies can provide, then Marines/Army have to source something from outside to get the edge. I'm sure you don't want them to fight with spears and swords, do you? :)


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:41
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Spreader, you a HOG?
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