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Sako 85 Design

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2009 at 23:36
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In another thread someone mentioned there may be a redesign of the Sako 85 in the works.   I'm wondering if maybe it's more because Sako is promoting the newer A-7?  I hope that's not the case because I'm a fan of the 85 even though there are a couple of things I don't like, the stingy buttstock and hard recoil pad and the dovetail receiver. 

I also don't like the very small recoil lug even though it's an interesting design.  The picture of the receiver on the left shows a small and shallow "nub" that mates with a metal plate screwed into the stock shown again on the left.  If everything fits perfectly flush and is approriately torqued down it's fine but I'd be happier with the lug shown on the receiver on the right.  The article explains it further.  If Sako is making some changes to the 85 maybe this will be one? 

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/Dethroned.html











Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2009 at 00:07
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I have been looking at the new Sako A7 that has intigral picatinny rails.  Nice have no idea what the recoil lug looks like though and dont find info on it on the SAKO site.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2009 at 17:57
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The A7 is nothing more than the old M75 receiver with the same recoil lug as the M75 used (the top action in the above photo).  The difference between the A7 and M75 receivers is the M75 has the integral tapered scope mount grooves and serrations on top of the receiver, while the A7 has traditional screw-on (not integral) bases like Rem 700, Savage, Browning, etc.  It comes with picatinny bases already installed, which is why it looks like they are integral.
 
The other differences between the A7 and M75 is the A7 comes only with a synthetic stock (at least at present), A7's magazine is mostly plastic, A7 has the "Total Control" magazine latch of the M85, A7's bolt shroud is less "stylized" than M75 and M85, A7 has larger diameter bolt than 75/85, A7 has spring plunger ejector vs. standing blade ejector of 75/85.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2009 at 19:40
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

The A7 is nothing more than the old M75 receiver with the same recoil lug as the M75 used (the top action in the above photo).  The difference between the A7 and M75 receivers is the M75 has the integral tapered scope mount grooves and serrations on top of the receiver, while the A7 has traditional screw-on (not integral) bases like Rem 700, Savage, Browning, etc.  It comes with picatinny bases already installed, which is why it looks like they are integral.
 
The other differences between the A7 and M75 is the A7 comes only with a synthetic stock (at least at present), A7's magazine is mostly plastic, A7 has the "Total Control" magazine latch of the M85, A7's bolt shroud is less "stylized" than M75 and M85, A7 has larger diameter bolt than 75/85, A7 has spring plunger ejector vs. standing blade ejector of 75/85.


Have you handled one yet?  Maybe they'll do a wood version with a metal magazine and call it the 'new' 85?  I'd like one if only for the new scope bases.  Can you tell us more about the larger bolt?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2009 at 09:37
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Timber, I handled the A7 at Cabelas last month and I actually like the looks of the Tikka better even though I'm not a big fan of all that plastic.  I really don't understand the marketing angle Beretta is trying here because the A7 has just as much plastic as the Tikka and it cost alot more money.  The A7 comes with a 5 shot MOA compared to a 3 shot MOA with the Tikka but is it worth the difference?  For a few bucks more I rather get a used 75 or a new 85 if possible.  According to Cabelas, A7 sales are even worse than the 85's and they can't order anymore 85's.  I also noticed on gunbroker that the new 85's attract very little interest but left over or hardly used 75's are always getting bids.  So IMO, I think the 85 as we know it today is history.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2009 at 14:26
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Thanks for the Cabelas information.  It verifies what I've seen with other sellers.  I knew something was up when I saw fewer available calibers availble for the 85 on a couple of Internet sellers.  Not only are some shooters not liking the 85's design it could also be a function of price in this economy.  BassPro tells me price is influencing sales to a larger degree than usual which makes sense. 

My BassPro doesn't have any A7's so all I can say is what I've read.  Field and Stream or Outdoor Life did a big review of the new rifleas and the A7 came in around the middle.  I'm not saying they're the ultimate arbitor on these things but they did say it had allot of plastic and the action was a little stiff in cocking.  I experienced this with my 85 and got used to 'hitting' the bolt handle to cock it after firing.  To be fair it has gotten a little easier after much shooting and the rest of the bolt movement is ultra smooth. 

Are you listening Beretta?  From this one shooter's opinion I like allot of the 85 but I wish the dovetail receiver would disappear!  Change it to a Weaver style like the Icon or just tap holes in it like everybody else!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2009 at 16:30
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Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

  Can you tell us more about the larger bolt?
 
For whatever reason, Sako decided to increase the diameter of the A7's bolt body over the 75 & 85.  I don't know the reason, but it otherwise uses the same 3 lug design of the other two.  Maybe it has something to do with needing to provide additional room for the hole to accept the spring and button of the plunger style ejector.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2009 at 16:46
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Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

Thanks for the Cabelas information.  It verifies what I've seen with other sellers.  I knew something was up when I saw fewer available calibers availble for the 85 on a couple of Internet sellers.  Not only are some shooters not liking the 85's design it could also be a function of price in this economy.  BassPro tells me price is influencing sales to a larger degree than usual which makes sense. 

My BassPro doesn't have any A7's so all I can say is what I've read.  Field and Stream or Outdoor Life did a big review of the new rifleas and the A7 came in around the middle.  I'm not saying they're the ultimate arbitor on these things but they did say it had allot of plastic and the action was a little stiff in cocking.  I experienced this with my 85 and got used to 'hitting' the bolt handle to cock it after firing.  To be fair it has gotten a little easier after much shooting and the rest of the bolt movement is ultra smooth. 

Are you listening Beretta?  From this one shooter's opinion I like allot of the 85 but I wish the dovetail receiver would disappear!  Change it to a Weaver style like the Icon or just tap holes in it like everybody else!
 
I don't understand the lack of appeal for the 85 vs. the 75.  Other than the stock style, there isn't a huge difference between the 2 rifles from a design standpoint.  The 85 adds a few minor enhancements to the 75 design.  The recoil lug is hidden from view, and despite it's rather wierd approach, it's a non-issue.  I actually prefer the more classic style stock on the wood stocked 85's over the 75 stock.  The latest 85's seem to come with a higher grade of wood than the 75 as well.
 
As for the stiffer bolt lift on cocking, this is the tradeoff you get with any short bolt throw, 3-, 6-, and 9-lug actions.  Because of the 120-deg centers lug orientation and corresponding short bolt lift, the cocking cam out of necessity has to be steeper than the cam used on a 2 lug action.  Therefore, it requires more effort to cock.  Unless you use a longer bolt handle or some sort of roller cocking piece engagement with the cocking cam, this is unavoidable.
 
As for the dovetail receiver, I agree it's a pain.  However, the problem is not with the design itself, which is a good idea, but the fact that for whatever reason, not as many scope mount manufacturers offer good mount solutions for it, and the Sako Opti-Loks leave a lot to be desired.  Again, the A7 does use the tapped holes, not because of any superiority of that mounting method (as it's actually weaker than the dovetail grooves), but because it's cheaper to manufacture.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2009 at 20:56
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I agree with much of what you've said RifleDude.  There are minor improvements in the 85 design and yes I do like the straight stock over the Monte Carlo even though the proportions seem backward - a fat forearm and a smaller buttstock.

I understand the engineering/mechanics of the shorter lift but my 75 (edit: also had a Tikka that cocked easier) seemed easier to cock.  Perhaps my 85 is not typical and has something a little out of whack?  I don't know.  A 1/2" longer bolt handle would help with leverage.  Or maybe some internal change to the mechanics.

You're absolutely spot-on with your analysis of the dovetail receiver.  There's probably not enough demand for other manufacturers to design and produce more and different bases.  It's too bad but that's the reality.  Sako should either dump the Opti-Lok (and it's soft screws - I had that bad experience!) or do it right or dump the dovetail altogether.  I like integral styles but something more common with industry standards like Weaver.  Otherwise, tap the holes.

EDIT: BerettaUSA no longer has the Hunter 85 or Stainless Synthetic 85 on their website.


Edited by timber - February/27/2009 at 21:05
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2009 at 22:40
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The stock design on the 85 seems to be the major complaint from what I've heard and read on various forms.  I prefer the 75 style myself, not necessarily because of its monte carlo shape but mainly because the butt end is larger and less narrow than the 85.  The 75 just seemed to shoulder better for me. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2009 at 01:12
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loaded4bear - "because the butt end is larger and less narrow than the 85"

Agree, agree, agree, agree, agree.................................agree!  I agree.  This trend to "trimmer" stocks is fine except the butt.  What are they thinking?  Screw a muzzle brake on everything?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2009 at 09:53
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Muzzle brake for everything may be next! 
 
Maybe this deserves a separate post but whats up with the stock on the Rem. 700 LR Tactical?   Does this cut-out notch serve some sought of purpose?  Sounds like a nice rifle except for the lookshttp://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_XCR_tactical_long_range.asp
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2009 at 09:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2009 at 10:15
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Why does Beretta screw everybody up??  Oh well, there are plenty of used Sakos out there. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2009 at 10:34
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I`ve seen some pics of a new 85. It was the 21.5" tubed 85 chambered in the .370 Sako.
 
Great looking DGR rifle, but in a 370 Sako??....A redundant (why?) cartridge!
 
It`ll probably catch on a little over in Europe, but not so much over here. Seems to me if you want to sell quite a few rifles, chamber the thing in an already very popular or growing by leaps and bounds, non-proprietary cartridge???? Gee! How abouts a 375 Ruger for starters??..DA!!!.........Not too wise a move there Sako, in trying to follow Rugers lead with your own cartridge and a redundant one at that....Loco....Whacko.....Whacko.....Laugh
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2009 at 14:10
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Originally posted by loaded4bear loaded4bear wrote:

The stock design on the 85 seems to be the major complaint from what I've heard and read on various forms.  I prefer the 75 style myself, not necessarily because of its monte carlo shape but mainly because the butt end is larger and less narrow than the 85.  The 75 just seemed to shoulder better for me. 

 
I haven't noticed the difference in the size of the butt but I do like the slimmer wrist of the 85.  The 75's have always felt too big in the wrist IMO.  The 85 feels noticeably lighter and points better.  Feels very much like a Kimber 8400 IMO.  And the wood on 85 Hunters is on average MUCH better grade of walnut than 75's.  Most 75 hunters were plain straight grain walnut at best.  My 85 Hunter has fiddleback going through it like a Weatherby.  I've seen several others on GB like that too.  I like the idea of the oil finish but it's not done very well.  The first few wipe downs left brown on my rag.  A careful coat of Formby's Tung oil fixed that.  Handloads on 270wsm with Sierra MK's are shooting well under 1/2" 3 shot groups. 
 
Since the 85's no longer come with optilocks like the 75's and Beretta charged me $170 for bases and rings I can see why they won't be selling truckloads of 85's.  The tapered dovetail is the only thing I don't like about Sako's.  I'd say machine them flat and tap them.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2009 at 14:28
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There will always be SAKO followers  just like there are DODGERS baseball followers,Ruger chanced a new cartridge so can Sako or anyone else who dares. Thats what sells guns whether it be in the US or over seas they dont care where the money comes from? if Sako came out with something in less than a 338 I would jump on it . so would others big as sh#t.
 Howa just released the 375  Ruger. Because it is a different gun they will sell a lot of them. most people buy out of curiosity not from knowledge. Look at all the people that fell for the Rem super or ultra short mags at first, those were mostly a joke and the RUM still isnt a big hit? the 375 styer? Where is all this going don't Know but  SAKO/TIKKA is here too stay. regardless of style or caliber. why? QUALITY!
                                         and in case your wondering yes I own a Sako  Wink


Edited by rifle looney - February/28/2009 at 21:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 00:07
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Big Squeeze: "I`ve seen some pics of a new 85. It was the 21.5" tubed 85 chambered in the .370 Sako."
Are you talking about the Kodiak? 

Big Squeeze: "Great looking DGR rifle, but in a 370 Sako??....A redundant (why?) cartridge!"
Craig Boddington did a review of the 370 Sako in the March issue of 'Guns and Ammo'.  It's a lengthened and necked up 30-06 but still fits in a standard length action.  BTW, the more I read about Ruger's RCM's the better I like them.  Technically they may be better than the WSM's but they're competing against a somewhat established brand.
EDIT:  Have you seen the 416 Ruger?

Horsemany; "I haven't noticed the difference in the size of the butt but I do like the slimmer wrist of the 85."
I've owned both the 75 and 85 (still do).  The butt of the 85 seems smaller but the wrist is slimmer and I do like that.  My wood is about the same but I do like the oil finish better.  I bought some Tung oil but haven't used it yet.  You said you had some brown on the rag.  Was it stain?  My stock is fairly dark and I'm wondering if it was stained.

rifle looney: "SAKO/TIKKA is here too stay. regardless of style or caliber. why? QUALITY!"
I'd agree but if they'd change a few things they'd sell allot more.  Aproximately $1,500 for a typical Sako Hunter is allot of money.  I bought it for the action/safety/bolt lock/trigger/straight wood stock (in spite of the butt).  But I loathe the dovetail receiver.  I owned a Tikka Hunter 270WSM and didn't like the plastic and light weight even though it was an accurate piece.

Here's a picture of a 700CDL buttstock on the left, my 85 on the right (with Kick-Ezz):



Edited by timber - March/01/2009 at 01:34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 00:34
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Yep!.......... It`s the Sako Kodiak. Excellent  good looking rifle.
 
But in regards the the 370 Sako cartridge, I think even Boddington asked,,,,why? I do too!
It`s too close to the 375`s with no added benefits.  It`s an odd-ball....
 
I disagree with Sako`s marketing choice with their own chambering. However, if they`d a slapped a .375 Ruger in that rifle, it would be one helluva winner and ALOT more units would be sold too. That`s exactly what Howa is doing with their new `09 M1500 .375 Ruger. 
 
In today`s economy where sales are the bottom line, you chamber an already growing in popularity and successful cartridge. Not experiment with a new cartridge that comes so close to the 375`s in diameter.  
 
   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 00:40
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Agreed.  I hope I don't get flamed for this but I like the RCM's better than the WSM's.  I'd love to see either a 270 RCM or 7MM RCM, preferably the latter.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 08:29
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Timber
Yes it was stain.  Nearly every walnut stock sold today by any company is stained.  I finish wood as part of a my profession.  The proper way to do it is to stain first and allow to dry.  Then topcoat with whatever.  Apparently they just tinted their oil with stain on the 85's, cause if you use a rag damp with anything it will come off dk brown.  If you're wood is as nice on your 75 as 85 you either got an exceptional 75 or kinda plain 85.  If I wasn't so lazy I'd post some pics of my 85's wood.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 10:43
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I have a T3 Hunter coming, and the pictures of the stock make it look like the finish may need help - it looks kinda muddy or something in the pictures.  Is there any self-help for that?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 10:46
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Most likely not, when you get it post a pic.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 10:53
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I will post a pic.  It is not a big deal to me, this will be a 100% using rifle if it turns out to be a good shooter, it is a 338WM.  I don't really want to have to be so careful with it like I do with the Abolt Medallion wood, but I wanted a wood stock over the T3 Lite stock for other reasons. (I figured a little extra weight in a 338WM is a good thing...)

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2009 at 10:58
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That it will be.  Wink
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