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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2012 at 21:35
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Thinking about purchasing an AR soon and it boils down to a couple differant RRA models.
 
The first is the Elite Operator 2 and the other is the Advanced Tactical Hunter. Basically they have the same features with the major differance being the barrels. The Elite Operator has a 16" Chrome Moly with 1:9 twist, the ATH has an 18" Stainless barrel with a 1:8 twist. The ATH is also chambered in the Wylde configeration.
 
A local dealter has the Elite in stock for $1100, I have no idea how long it would take to get the ATH.
 
Has anyone have any experience with this rifle and set-ups. Is there that mcuh  differance between the 16 and 18" lengths. The 16 is guaranteed for 1 moa and the 18 is guaranteed for 3/4 moa.
 
thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2012 at 21:57
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What is the use going to be? And at what ranges are you going to shoot it at?
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It always boils down to what your goals are. If your leaning more towards target and long distance then the tighter group and longer barrel. If your thinking varmint and under 300yrds the the 16in will do what you want. The twist is so close it will only matter if you have plans to use heavier bullets. Under 65gr 1-8 or 1-9 twist will do fine. Give some details of your shooting goals and these guys can share alot more experience toward your concerns.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2012 at 22:19
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I should have been more detailed. I had thought about this but forgot to add it. I want to be able to shoot coyotes out to about 300 and praire dogs to maybe 400 or 500.  I dont' know if that range is necessary for dogs or not, I haven't actually had the chance to do it yet. So that may be a stretch, but I would like to have a rifle cabable of it. The rest of the time it would be targets from 100 to 300.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2012 at 05:44
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I would avoid the chrome lined barrel if your going for precision.
Have you considered the coyote 20" or the predator 20"? i think both would be fine and  cost less.  The match grade barrel in the predator and ATH have a higher potential for accuracy.  I would recommend against the 16" barrel, and go with something to help a tad more in muzzle velocity.
What kind of bullet are you wanting to shoot? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2012 at 08:57
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I don't know anything about .223 ammo, so I don't have any idea what I would want to shoot. I guess I would find a load that it liked and go from there. I've looked at little bit at the predator models, but haven't studied them yet.
 
Any ammo recommendations?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2012 at 09:06
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I have the RRA Varmint with the heavy stainless 20". It is heavy and slower to wield. It is a good shooter. RR also has a medium weight stainless. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2012 at 09:11
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well if you got with the 1:9 twist barrel your gonna probaly be shooting 55s, you might be able to go as high as 69s. id recommend a ballistic tip,  V-max being an example.  Should be great on praire dogs, and effective on coyotes out to 300. After that the 223 is gonna lose some steam,  and that little low bc bullet is gonna be wind sensative.  Alot of skilled shooters can use something like 22-250 out of bolt gun on small critters out to 4-500. But it has higher velocities.  a 1:8 twist would allow you to use up to 77s, (well really higher but thats heavy mag length bullet as your gonna get), 69, 75, 77 are much higher bc bullets that are used for target shooting. Generally not recommended for hunting. The 75, and 77s are good target rounds out to 600.  With a 1:8 twist you should still be fine using 55grain vmax, but it proably wont shoot light weight bullets like 45s as good as the 1:9. I beleive the match barrels RRA uses are WIlson and they are a good quality barrel. 
Personally would go with the 20" predator and have them bead blast the barrel. ($35 extra i believe)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2012 at 09:56
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Stork is right on.
If you limit your range to 300yds or less, then a 16" barrel with a 1 in 9" twist will probably do everything that a .223 will do for game, targets, or defense. To reach out to 400 to 800yds for targets or pest, your going to be better served with a 20" barrel with a 1 in 8" twist, and using bullits in the 69 to 77gr weight range, preferralby with a boat tail.
I'm assuming your looking at free floated barrels, so barrel weight isn't that important unless your planning on putting a lot of rounds through the barrel in a short time period. Heat warps the barrel, and the heavier the barrel, the more heat it can absorb before it's warp is noticeable. Things like slings, bipods, lights, lazers, can openers, and chrome plated squirrel tails should be attached to the free float tube, as any tension on the barrel will shift the point of impact.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2012 at 19:36
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Hey, thanks for the info so far fella's. I did some thinking today and I'm pretty sure I'm settled on the ATH. I know I want a longer and better barrel than the EO2, and I think the 18" is a good compromise. Either gun will be more accurate than I am right now, but hopefully I can grow into it and have alot of fun in the process. It will definetly be cheaper to shoot than the 7 rem mag at $2.40 a round. Oh, well I like that gun too.
 
Now, for the next can of worms. What do I top it off with. I set on either the Burris P.E.P.R or SWFA S.A.L.T mount, but for the scope...
 
I like the SS3-9 but I'm afraid I will need more magnification and more versitility than  a fixed 10x or 12x. I say that, because with the 7 mag I shoot at about 7x for 100yds hole punching, and that doesn't leave much room to go up with a 9x max. I also think that I want to be able to get the turret engraved with the yardage for a chosen/proven round. So the Nikon M-223 comes to mind, but I'm a little skittish as I've never used a Nikon product. I think that 600yds will be the max so that aspect of it would work out.
 
Any other thougts.
 
thanks, again
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 04:53
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Whats your price range for optics?
The SS3-9 would be excellent for coyotes, for target work at 5-600 you might want something with adjustable parallax.
other scopes in that price range:
http://swfa.com/Sightron-3-12x42-SII-Big-Sky-Riflescope-P9163.aspx
http://swfa.com/Sightron-4-16x42-SII-Big-Sky-Riflescope-P9166.aspx
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16x50-Viper-HS-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P48282.aspx
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 06:32
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I purchased my ATH 11 months ago & am very happy with it .The only thing I'm sorry about is that I didn't get the trigger bead blasted like I did on the barrel,RR did a hell of a job on this one.
 
I had the the varmetor but sold it as I didn't realy like the weight or balance of that rifle,as was said above although it was a tack driver.
 
I like the 1:8 twist I think it has alot to offer for both hunting & bench shooting.I only shoot out to 400 yrds targets & ground hogs but I like those 64 & 68 grainers more than the 55's.Yes I give up a little speed but you know the expression"an animal is not going to care if it's pass through is 2950fps or 2850fps.[:}
 
I had to wait 14 weeks last year  for mine to come in,guess it might be longer now with the ellection almost here.A LEO friend that I shoot with has the elite but he thinks the ATH feels better to him.
 
I put a IOR 1.5-8x26 on her & couldn't be more happy.You might also want to check out the new Vortex 1-6 or wait for the SS1-6 that looks like its going to be another SWFA killer,excuse the pun.
 
Can never go wrong with any AR rifle that  garrenties 3/4 moa @ 100yds out of the box,just saying.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 08:00
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Whats your budget for glass?
 
The SWFA SS 3-9 gets  allot of praise and rightfully so. You won't find a better deal for an all around scope than it in that price range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 09:42
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Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

well if you got with the 1:9 twist barrel your gonna probaly be shooting 55s, you might be able to go as high as 69s. a 1:8 twist would allow you to use up to 77s.
Sorry for derailing this thread but i read ppl parroting this way too often not to comment. With a 1-9" twist AR you should be able to shoot about any bullet you can properly load in an AR magazine. 77smk's shoot fine through my 1-9" AR and i know im not the only one and it will be the first bullet i try with my 1-9" bolt gun i just bought. 
The required twist on a barrel is based on a lot of factors (velocity, temp, etc), but the biggest factor is bullet length (not weight).  If the 55gr bullet shoots better than the 69gr, its not b/c the 69gr wasnt stabilized its b/c the load or barrel make favored the other bullet. The below info is based on a very good book by Bryan Litz, Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting.
sf = stability factor; typically under 1.0 will not properly stabilize a bullet so with a safety factor most people talk about wanting a stability factor of 1.4 or greater. 
Examples 
- 75gr AMAX (1.11" long, sf =0.97) or 75gr VLD (1.063", sf=1.1); We can probably agree that from most 1-9" barrels under most conditions it would not be a safe bet that these bullets are going to properly stabilize. Thats ok b/c these are not bullets most ppl try to stuff into an AR mag. 
- 77gr nosler cc (0.973", sf=1.46) or 77gr smk (.994",sf=1.37); We should be able to agree that from most 1-9" barrels under most conditions these bullets should properly stabilize. 
- For giggles assume you have unrestricted mag length and a 1-8"twist; 75gr AMAX sf=1.22 (not ideal but i read of ppl doing it and i single fed them in another AR i had) or the 80gr AMAX sf=1.12 (now we are getting skinny on that safety factor).

Now back to regular programming - Good choice mil169, thats a nice rifle and should serve you well. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 09:53
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Originally posted by lumberjack149 lumberjack149 wrote:

Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

well if you got with the 1:9 twist barrel your gonna probaly be shooting 55s, you might be able to go as high as 69s. a 1:8 twist would allow you to use up to 77s.
Sorry for derailing this thread but i read ppl parroting this way too often not to comment. With a 1-9" twist AR you should be able to shoot about any bullet you can properly load in an AR magazine. 77smk's shoot fine through my 1-9" AR and i know im not the only one and it will be the first bullet i try with my 1-9" bolt gun i just bought. 
The required twist on a barrel is based on a lot of factors (velocity, temp, etc), but the biggest factor is bullet length (not weight).  If the 55gr bullet shoots better than the 69gr, its not b/c the 69gr wasnt stabilized its b/c the load or barrel make favored the other bullet. The below info is based on a very good book by Bryan Litz, Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting.
sf = stability factor; typically under 1.0 will not properly stabilize a bullet so with a safety factor most people talk about wanting a stability factor of 1.4 or greater. 
Examples 
- 75gr AMAX (1.11" long, sf =0.97) or 75gr VLD (1.063", sf=1.1); We can probably agree that from most 1-9" barrels under most conditions it would not be a safe bet that these bullets are going to properly stabilize. Thats ok b/c these are not bullets most ppl try to stuff into an AR mag. 
- 77gr nosler cc (0.973", sf=1.46) or 77gr smk (.994",sf=1.37); We should be able to agree that from most 1-9" barrels under most conditions these bullets should properly stabilize. 
- For giggles assume you have unrestricted mag length and a 1-8"twist; 75gr AMAX sf=1.22 (not ideal but i read of ppl doing it and i single fed them in another AR i had) or the 80gr AMAX sf=1.12 (now we are getting skinny on that safety factor).

Now back to regular programming - Good choice mil169, thats a nice rifle and should serve you well. 

Yes i have his book too. It is very good. I plan on buying his new one, but just because it fits in the mag does not mean it will shoot them well.  I used to have a 1:9 bushmaster that would shoot 75s right around an inch at 100 all day. I have a savage bolt gun that shoots 75s about 3" groups, I think one time shot a 2.5" group. 
so a 1:8 would be a better choice in case he wants to shoot them.
 
I really like Bryan Litz book. He is a very knowledgable, edcuated, experienced shooter.  He does do real world testing on many thing in his book. The MATH part is theory. Sometimes theory and reality dont line up perfectly.


Edited by stork23raz - September/27/2012 at 10:00
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 10:13
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Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

 but just because it fits in the mag does not mean it will shoot them well.  I used to have a 1:9 bushmaster that would shoot 75s right around an inch at 100 all day. I have a savage bolt gun that shoots 75s about 3" groups, I think one time shot a 2.5" group. so a 1:8 would be a better choice in case he wants to shoot them.
I guess you missed some of my point. I agree just b/c it fits in a mag does not mean it will shoot well, but at the same time just b/c it doesnt shoot well doesnt mean it wasnt properly stabilized by the barrel. It means that loaded combo didnt work, whether it was bullet design, powder type/charge, primer, jump, etc or who knows what.
Example - in that same 1-9" AR i have, i had an easier time getting the 77smk bullet to shoot than the 69gr smk. I might have been able to get the 69gr bullet to shoot just fine but i never put any time into b/c the 77gr worked just dandy. Another example is in my 1-7" AR shoots ok with 77gr bullet but happens to shoot excellent with a 60gr bullet. Both bullets are properly stabilized, it just happens to like the load i have with the 60gr bullet better but not b/c the 60gr bullet is more stabilized. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 10:36
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The OP realizes that he will have to find a load that the gun likes.
Me and some of the others were just stating that we would recommend that if he wants to shoot accurately out to 600 yards then a 1:8 barrel would be better suited for the task. 
 
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At what range does your 1:7 shoot 60s better than 77s? I would say thats probaly at 0-2,300 yards. Odds are that once you get out to the 600 yard area that the 75,77 grain match grade boat tails are going to out perform the much lighter bullet....... in theory.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 13:53
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Originally posted by mil169 mil169 wrote:

 
I like the SS3-9 but I'm afraid I will need more magnification and more versitility than  a fixed 10x or 12x. I say that, because with the 7 mag I shoot at about 7x for 100yds hole punching, and that doesn't leave much room to go up with a 9x max. I also think that I want to be able to get the turret engraved with the yardage for a chosen/proven round. So the Nikon M-223 comes to mind, but I'm a little skittish as I've never used a Nikon product. I think that 600yds will be the max so that aspect of it would work out.
 
Any other thougts.
 
thanks, again


I think any Nikon would be a step down from the SS 3-9. Better glass will allow you to see better than lesser glass with more magnification. A number of people here shoot at 1000yds with the SS 3-9. It seems that it is very common for new shooters to over scope their rifles. And to give you an idea of what 9x at 600yds is like it is similar to 67yds without any magnification or iron sights.

I would be looking at a 1:8 twist since I like heavier bullets to minimize the effects of wind. My 1:9 shoots 50gn V MAX very well, but once it go up to even 55gn my groups open up on MY RIFLE. My 1:8 rifle shoots 69gn and 75gn best with 55gn okay.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 14:29
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I think the SS would probaly be the best choice, and thats what I would go with for your purpose.
 
But if you wanted more magnifcation, and were willing to drop the dough
 
Either one of these will have much better tracking and glass than the nikon.
Also the Nikon M-223 ballistc knobs are setup for 55ballistic tip bullet and a specific muzzle velocity, sorry i cant recall that number), So the odds are pretty good that your load will not match that one excatly. Your better off creating your own ballistic  chart using one of the programs just a JBM.
 
If you really want a BDC knob, Vortex makes them for their viper series. Buy the scope, shoot it alot, record or drops in your average temperature. Give them the data and they will make your knob, but it will cost you. Remember you would want the average temperature. if most your shooting is done in 70 degree weather, but you do your measurements in 90. then it wont match up. Also if your settings are for 90 degrees and your sitting out in 30 degree temperature in the snow, your shots are going to fall short.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2012 at 19:31
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I keep forgetting details in this thread. My 7 rem mag is scoped with a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 with the rapid-z 800 reticle, so I'm familiar with that set-up. I don't mind saving a little more money and buying the right scope the first time. Realistically, 600yds would be my max for this rifle and that would be target only. I think evan for prairie dogs 400 would be the absolute limit. The reason I would want marked turrets is so that if I was hunting a coyote or something I would be able to make a quick adjustment to whatever yardage was necessary. I think that would be easier than counting clicks. I suppose it boils down to whatever you're comfortable with.
 
I wish I knew someone with a SS3-9, so I could take a look at it. It does look right at home on a tactical style rifle like an AR.
 
I know it is hard, but does anyone have any "through the scope" pics using a SS3-9? I probably should have shifted this to the hunting scope section, but here we are.
 
thanks again
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

Whats your budget for glass?
 
The SWFA SS 3-9 gets  allot of praise and rightfully so. You won't find a better deal for an all around scope than it in that price range.
I don't know yet. I'm still in the preliminary stages of planning.

Edited by mil169 - September/27/2012 at 21:31
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Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

At what range does your 1:7 shoot 60s better than 77s? I would say thats probaly at 0-2,300 yards. Odds are that once you get out to the 600 yard area that the 75,77 grain match grade boat tails are going to out perform the much lighter bullet....... in theory.
Youre correct for any shooting i do past 200yds i usually shoot the heavies but now we are discussing how efficient a bullet is and not twist rates. Maybe i suck at explaining or you have a thick skull. My whole point was to clear up your one statement you made barrel twist rates --
"The match grade barrel in the predator and ATH have a higher potential for accuracy." - I agree
"I would recommend against the 16" barrel, and go with something to help a tad more in muzzle velocity." - I agree for his application
"Well if you got with the 1:9 twist barrel your gonna probaly be shooting 55s, you might be able to go as high as 69s." - This is where i disagree and wanted to make the point to someone else reading this topic with a 1-9"twist that took what you said as gospel.
This is Beating a Dead Horse for most people, but if a heavy bullet was properly stabilized and shot well with a lighter twist, then for all practical purposes there is zero advantage of a tighter twist, including at extended ranges. Based on math and experience, there is a very good possibility for someone with a 1-9" AR to be able to shoot some of the heavy bullets, so dont automatically rule them out.
Apologies to mil169 for side tracking his thread. 
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mil169 - what is your location? Maybe someone with a ss3-9 lives close to you. I believe swfa would also allow you to buy the ss3-9 and return it at no cost (other than shipping) if you didnt like it. 

Ive read thro this thread but did you ever state a budget? You have been given some pretty good options from people here. I have used the ss3-9 at 600+yd ranges with no problem, but this was on large steel targets. If i planned on doing alot of praire dogging i would want a little bit more magnification (IMO) like some of the scopes Stork23raz recommended. If the praire dogging was only an occasional thing then probably a 3-9 would suit you well enough. I would buy the scope that best suits 90% of shots you take (usually thats just a nice 3-9 for me), rather than in the past i have made the mistake of buying a heavy high powered scope that was really only helpful a few times per year that i was stuck with the rest of the time. 

Not sure if you have done this yet but i would also check out what is on sale on swfa's samplelist. 
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Originally posted by lumberjack149 lumberjack149 wrote:

Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

At what range does your 1:7 shoot 60s better than 77s? I would say thats probaly at 0-2,300 yards. Odds are that once you get out to the 600 yard area that the 75,77 grain match grade boat tails are going to out perform the much lighter bullet....... in theory.
Youre correct for any shooting i do past 200yds i usually shoot the heavies but now we are discussing how efficient a bullet is and not twist rates. Maybe i suck at explaining or you have a thick skull. My whole point was to clear up your one statement you made barrel twist rates --
"The match grade barrel in the predator and ATH have a higher potential for accuracy." - I agree
"I would recommend against the 16" barrel, and go with something to help a tad more in muzzle velocity." - I agree for his application
"Well if you got with the 1:9 twist barrel your gonna probaly be shooting 55s, you might be able to go as high as 69s." - This is where i disagree and wanted to make the point to someone else reading this topic with a 1-9"twist that took what you said as gospel.
This is Beating a Dead Horse for most people, but if a heavy bullet was properly stabilized and shot well with a lighter twist, then for all practical purposes there is zero advantage of a tighter twist, including at extended ranges. Based on math and experience, there is a very good possibility for someone with a 1-9" AR to be able to shoot some of the heavy bullets, so dont automatically rule them out.
Apologies to mil169 for side tracking his thread. 
agreed.....
I never did say he couldnt shoot 75s. i was just that normally a 1:9 should shoot 69s ok. 75s are generally barrel to barrel, luck of the draw thing.  I did not not state up 75s because I didnt want to give the impression that a 1:9 would be guaranteed since its on the edge. It was your statement about it if fits in the mag it should be fine then. Someone might just take that statement as gospel.
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