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ring lapping

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RifleDude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 13:00

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I haven’t been able to log into the site much since the last post, and I think this is an important and oft-misunderstood topic. 

BB, that summation from TPS is correct, but if you read it carefully, it doesn’t say lapping isn’t beneficial so much as explaining why rings are almost never perfectly aligned, and why they recommend another alternative to lapping.  For certain, lapping isn’t always needed.  The goal of lapping is near-perfect ring alignment, and if that goal is achieved by other means, then “rock and roll hoochie-koo”… lapping ain’t needed.  If TPS holds the extremely tight tolerances they say they do (and I have no reason to believe they don’t), lapping would indeed not be necessary IF you also mount their rings to a precision ONE PIECE base and ensure that the top of the action it’s mounted to is either perfectly straight or bed the base. Notice that TPS doesn’t offer 2-pc bases, which almost certainly introduces misalignment.  By the same token, if you mount their rings on lower quality bases or 2-pc bases, there’s no way they can say with 100% certainty that lapping isn’t necessary.  They can’t control what they don’t make.  Of course manufacturers are going to advise against lapping, because the outcome is totally out of their control, and they have no way of knowing whether the person doing the lapping knows what they’re doing or not.  Plus, if they advise people to do it, they run the risk of consumers thinking there’s something wrong with their products, and as has already been discussed, a good portion of the reasons why ring misalignment occurs has nothing to do with the rings themselves. 

Saying “no lapping is necessary” makes great ad copy, but it ignores reality.  How can a scope ring manufacturer ensure that any possible receiver their rings may be mated to is straight, when that is totally outside their control?  Unless the same manufacturer made the receiver, bases, rings, and scope and fitted each piece together as individual assemblies, nobody can guarantee that everything always lines up perfectly 100% of the time with all possible combinations of receivers, bases, rings, and scopes, especially when different companies made different parts of the assembly.  It’s not possible.   All of the components in the rifle/mount/scope assembly, just like all other products, are made to design tolerances, and actual dimensions will vary from stated nominal dimensions within those tolerance ranges, resulting in tolerance stack-ups and therefore misalignment.  With all the variables in play, it is actually more likely that you will have misalignment than not.  You then have 2 options:  either ignore that possibility and mount your scope anyway, or address the misalignment.  If you choose the former, you may be o.k. if the alignment isn’t great, but if the misalignment is great, you will torque your scope tube, causing ring marks and reduced W/E adjustment travel, and even degraded optical performance in worst cases.  If you choose the latter, you WILL either have to lap or ream the rings, bed the base(s), or choose a ring design that self-compensates for misalignment, like the Burris Signature rings with inserts.

Even if perfectly concentric rings are mounted to a perfectly straight 1-pc base, if the receiver it’s mated to isn’t perfectly round and/or straight, the mount base will flex when the mounting screws are torqued, pulling the once perfectly aligned rings out of alignment.  To determine if you will have alignment problems with a 1 piece base & mount system, fasten the front end of the base firmly down to the receiver ring, without installing the rear screws.   Then, check to see if either of two conditions exist:  1.  The rear portion of the base makes contact with the bridge and begins to exert upward torque on the base before the front screws are fully tightened, or 2.  There’s a gap between base and receiver bridge even after the front screws are fully tightened.  If either exists, you WILL have misaligned rings when you torque down all base screws unless you lap the rings or bed the base.  Even if you use TPS’s alignment bar method, if the receiver the mounts are installed on is not geometrically perfect, the alignment bar is merely torqueing the receiver and/or mounts while it’s secured in the rings.  As soon as you release the bar, the rings will spring back into misalignment again.

ST, if a correctly sized lapping bar is used, lapping doesn't make rings oversized, it only squares them up and polishes.  It’s reasonable to ask how it’s possible that material can be removed and yet the clamping diameter remains unchanged.  This is one of those things that’s much easier to demonstrate in person than attempt to describe in words, but bear with me here, and I’ll attempt to do so. 

The only way lapping will enlarge the clamping diameter is if either the ri

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 13:37
Excellent post Ted.

Am I the only one that thinks we are all mostly in agreement here?

I may repeat some info from my earlier posts, I apologize if that is the case:

I think lapping rings can, and does, increase contact on the scope tube, which is good. I think this method is not as good as bedding a one piece base. We have touched on the disadvantages of lapping already, inlcuding that they are likely again misaligned if removed and remounted.

Ted, TPS' alignment bar was only to be used as an alignment jig to then bed the bases stress-free to the action. Once the epoxy was cured, the bases would then be true to each other, and would not spring back into misalignment when the bar was released.

If properly bedded in a stress-free manner, a one piece base would not arc or twist on the action when torqued, because those imprefections were cured with the epoxy (pun intended).

As far as lapping removing material to make the ID oversize, I understand your point. I think the problem is that, as you move the centerline of the ring ID down, you are closing the gap between the ring halves. This is especially problematic with TPS rings, as they are designed to not have a gap on one side.

For me bedding has more advantages, as I can switch scopes from one rifle to the next without worry. I prefer to customize the bases to the rifle, rather than the rings to the bases. You can also resell your rings later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 15:24
Very good write up guys.I've always lapped my rings till recently using Robert Hart lapping bars,the reason I don't any longer is I've switched over to Picatinney rails on all my rifles.
 
I have found to many discrepencies in the rails these companies are machining & I am talking the top of the line rails.No I have not yet tried bedding the rails but that will come next set up.I have however tried to lap my aadland rings & found they were very even[took same amount of dye off on each ring].All my rifles now are riden by Aadland.
 
I have called 4 different top of the line ring manufacturers & have gotten 4 different replies when it comes to the question of lapping[2 in favor & 2 against]so it seems here lies the problem for all us average do it your self people,if you can't get the manufacturers to agree,I guess it's left up to the individual.Kind of like the topic to Season or not to Season a new barrel?
 
As I was a  tool & dye maker for 5 years I do know my way around lapping equiptment & I have to disagree with the statement that You can't make a ring larger by lapping.If the person doing the lapping is not going straight with the bar they will ultimately wind up with an eccentric hole kind of like a cam or egg shape,pluss they will also create a weak spot on the ring,causing it to possibly break & this is where this thread first started Loco 
 Again much thanks for all the great infoExcellent


Edited by stickbow46 - May/27/2012 at 15:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 15:33
I don't think you could "wear a weak spot in the ring", simply by running a lapping bar over, my friend.
I do see where you could make the ID of the ring bigger though, but not as much as would have any consequence. 

Aren't we assuming that all the scope tubes and lapping bars are perfectly round here, Gents?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 18:59
The i.d of the rings and the "effective clamping i.d." once the rings are assembled to bases and rifle are two entirely different things when said rings are misaligned.  All custom barrel manufacturers lap the hell out of match barrel bores -- entirely by hand -- to create the final bore finish, without oversizing bores, and still hold +/-0.0002" (two ten-thousandths) TIR straightness from breech to muzzle because, like a lapping bar in rings, the lapping slug has a long surface area that ensures self-alignment and distributes the lapping paste evenly.  If you're using a precision bar that's round, straight, and of the correct size, you will not oversize your rings, nor reduce the gap between upper and lower ring halves to any noticeable degree.  This assumes you use common sense, don't spend a solid week lapping the rings, carefully monitor clean-up on the ring i.d faces, and know what to look for. 

If you plan to mount and dismount your scope often, don't buy 2-pc bases.  With some rifles, 1 pc bases block the ejection port or there are no 1 pc bases available.  When I use 2pc bases, I intend to never remove the mounts from the rifle they're installed on, so the fact that lapped rings are no longer in alignment anymore when removed and reinstalled is irrelevant. 

Yes, using an alignment bar, in conjunction with using a precision made 1pc base and precision rings, in conjunction with bedding the base is an effective alternative to lapping.  In fact, it's probably a superior method.  Missing any of those elements, however, and lapping is your huckleberry.

You can also just use a ring design that self-compensates for misalignment like those that use the "gimbal" type inserts and do neither.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 19:14
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:


Aren't we assuming that all the scope tubes and lapping bars are perfectly round here, Gents?   


A good lapping bar will be machine spin ground, which produces as perfectly round a surface as is possible by any manufacturing method.

All scope tubes these days are turned on-center in a CNC lathe (prior to milling any flat surfaces, slots, holes, etc.), so they will be very round (only slightly less so than is possible with grinding), as long as the material wasn't stress-relieving and warping from heat while being machined.  Even if the scope tube isn't perfectly round, misaligned rings are never a better foundation to mount a scope in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 19:51
Thank you, Sir! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 20:10
I think we all came together on this one.
Peace
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2012 at 20:55
Amen BB.........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thundey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2012 at 01:52
ha ha, last time I mentioned lapping rings around here I got scolded, LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2012 at 07:46
Thundey,don't ever bring up the subject of ring lapping again.Didn't want you to feel left outBig Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2012 at 17:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2012 at 22:30
Well said Jon & that's why I have only your rings on my rifles now.Excellent
Now when are going to come out with a matching Picatinney?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrtLksMarlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2013 at 00:48
Hi Folks;
 
Joined the forum to respond to this very good thread that I ran across while investigating how to mount a scope for the first time.  A number of great points have been brought up regarding lapping, bedding, manufacturing and such, yet as good points are pushed for a few are getting missed (and this is such a good thread it's worth firming up).
 
So there is no misunderstanding, I'm looking to mount a scope to a rifle for the first time, so firearm optics are new to me.....What is not however are manufacturing practices and machine design, including industrial laser and optical systems design for which I have been in business 35 years.
 
In any case, the points mentioned are as follows:
  • Manufacturing
  • Alignment
  • Bedding
  • Lapping
  • Result

Manufacturing:  IF the firearm, mount/rings, and scope were all made and assembled at the same facility (barring that firms mfg. held tolerances), none of this would be an issue.  However, since it is very likely that most folks are looking at three different manufacturers, no matter how much they may strive to work to a common set of master designs, in the end unable to control the other right off the bat you are almost assured there will be some slight discrepancies. 

Add to that manufacturing tolerances, and wherein (A1) rifle, with (B1) base and rings, and (C1) scope magically align perfectly, the exact same rifle/mount/scope combination simply due to tool wear, fixturing, machine varience (still all within tolerance) on the very next set up could be miles out.......It's actually simple to fix, simply make everything massively adjustable.  The only trouble with that is on a firearm, the whole combination would become bulky, heavier, and weaker risking losing that all precious zero.  So you compensate when mounting your optics.
 
Alignment:  Alignment IMO especially using the tools I've seen offered I personally find silly past letting you know if you have a tremendously serious problem that most likely goes well beyond what basic lapping or bedding as proposed should be used to fix.  In one case lapping alone might require a massive and unacceptable amount of stock removal.  Bedding on its own does nothing to address ring to base, ring to scope issues.
 
The ideal would actually be.......Fit the rings to the scope lapping each individually (which would naturally require a rough set-up first to determine their final position), then fit the rings to the bases insuring the best contact, and finally fit the whole set up to the rifle adjusting with shims/bedding.
 
The reason I go in that order is that it is highly unlikely that the ring I.D. is not round and parallel (not tapered).  Assuming that the scope tube is also round, then it is simply a matter of fit.  IOW, the I.D. of the rings matching the O.D. of the scope tube.  If the rings are too small of an I.D., then the edge by the fastening screws is all that will make contact.  If too large, then the mid point of the arc.  Like it or not to some degree only 3 tiny points (say two forward on the arc, 1 rearward as an example) AT BEST will really make contact, the lowest points on the rings and highest on the scope determining that........and in that you're not altering the scope in any way for roundness, all you can do is alter the rings for size so the points of contact hopefully end up every 60 degrees.
 
You'll not alter the ring to base connection, so all that leaves then is making the gap between the bases and rifle zero as best you can, and that will most likely demand shimming and/or bedding to make up for the scope to base variation, and base to rifle.
 
Bedding:  Bedding is an excellent point, and a great idea....However, and no insult intended, as shown in the video it was done wrong.  With my naked eye I could see the extreme gap between the rear of the base and the rifle when the front screw was tightened down.  At that point the rear of the base should have been shimmed to flush, then screwed down.  Instead the screw was simply tightened deforming the rail (arching it). 
 
What that would result in is that though you have made a solid connection between the base and mount, your ring centerlines would now be off (and it does NOT matter if the alignment tools seemed spot on, as the lead ring would be pointing down, and the rear up, that just where their c.l.s intersected.)........At that point lapping or really more reaming which is what you end up really doing taking off so much stock, would be an absolute MUST for the absolute best fit.  If not, then when you mount the theoretical cylindrical scope, then the forward-top and rear bottom of the front ring would be where contact is made, and visa versa on the rear.
 
So, bedding in my opinion should be performed with the scope (or better still tool like the lap) in the rings, the rings on the bases, fastening down the front mount (as that is your best bet for the best fit to the barrel bore), and filling the gap at the rear.........Ideally however, the asembly should lightly be set down, and any gaps in both ends (due to shape and size) compensated for.
 
Naturally, that is all assuming that the connection to the front mount to rifle, to the bore, is square and straight......That would mean soft attach bore sighting (essentially, the scope assembly at rest on the rifle, shimming front and back, and then bedding to fill the gaps).
 
Lapping:  Lapping as it is being discussed here is really more machining then fitting.  IOW, assemble it all, then run the lap enough to make the bore of the front ring the same as the back, along the same center line.  I agree with a statement above that says hand lapping is not precise.  Too much pressure pulling down on this side while lighter pushing away will net you an oblong hole no matter how perfectly round the tool is.  The method as is typically shown IMO does more harm then good regarding the bore I.D..  What it does do is make the centerlines common, however, you lose fit to the scope.
 
The manufacturers most likely make "round" holes and tubes better on their production machines then you can by hand.  What is at issue is how exact is the diameter of each to the other, and how square the rings bore I.D. is to the base, and ultimately to the rifle seats.
 
That all said, if you mount your components as is typically described, lapping would be a MUST.  It would be a must to insure a common centerline that does not distort the scope tube (forcing it to arch much like the base above no matter how slight).  How well the scope fits to the ring then moot.  If too much stock is removed and the scope is loose, simply break out the fine grit sandpaper and work down the screw flats (along the c.l.) of the upper ring half so you get a slight gap when tight......Realize that screws are also springs.  You deform the threads ever so slightly when run to torque making them bend working like springs.  That's what makes them hold and makes it solid, loctite just makes them stick there.
 
Result:    If you consider all the above, and utilized the mounting process I hint at throughout, that would mean all you are doing is fitting the ring to
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2013 at 18:44
Welcome to Optics Talk and thank you for your insightful commentary, Marlin. 

Jon:
Thank you for your comments concerning my post. I understand better now the whole enchilada and how it relates to the other components. 

I hadn't checked back on this thread until Marlin resurrected this thread. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2013 at 22:29
Originally posted by GrtLksMarlin GrtLksMarlin wrote:

Hi Folks;
 
Bedding:  Bedding is an excellent point, and a great idea....However, and no insult intended, as shown in the video it was done wrong.  With my naked eye I could see the extreme gap between the rear of the base and the rifle when the front screw was tightened down.  At that point the rear of the base should have been shimmed to flush, then screwed down.  Instead the screw was simply tightened deforming the rail (arching it). 
 
Welcome to the OT, GrtLksMarlin!
 
As the maker of that video, I feel inclined to defend myself. Wink
 
Take it easy on me, as I am obviously not a machinist:
 
 
 
I get a couple youtube messages a month about the rail coming up at the first screw.  Just to clear that up, I fit the rail to the action before doing anything to it, so as to see if there were any gaps with it just resting on the action by gravity, and there weren't.  I then checked the rail with the neighbor's machinist square, to maker sure the lugs were even, and they were.
 
As you can see in the video there is a relatively thick layer of Devcon steel epoxy putty on the pads, and I started the first screw just enough to start the threads.  The back end of the light came up because it was resting on the epoxy putty, and the ID of the base holes is enough larger than the screw thread diameter to allow for it.  Then I went to the other screws to get them started, and it seemed everything levelled out on the uncured epoxy.  I used very light pressure, and never tightened them enough to let any part of the rail press completely through the uncured epoxy and contact the action directly, as you can see at the end of the video, the contact surfaces have complete pads of cured epoxy.  Wouldn't the rail need direct contact metal-to-metal with the action at some point to bend?
 
After fully mounting the rail with epoxy cured, I checked the lugs again with the machinist square, and again, all the lugs were level.  I assumed that this indicates the rail did not bend.
 
Anyway, again I am not a professional machinist, and I apologize for any bad information I put out there.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GrtLksMarlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2013 at 01:49

Bitterroot Bulls;

No bad information put out there, in fact some great advice!  My appologies for the misunderstanding on my part, as said, no offence intended.  It does sound as though you're going to great lengths to insure the rail was not deformed......and recognizing that I hope you can appreciate my intent.
 
That said, your contribution as well as all others has really helped me better understand scope mounting, and though no doubt foolishly, I'm now intent on breaking established, and proven methods to build my rifle the following way.
 
1. Check the rings for size against the scope tube, and add or subtract (lapping) stock as needed to achieve an optimum fit....Add you ask?  Yep, yet wait for it.
 
2. Fixing a bore tube (that can be used to check alignment) in the rings, I'll soft fix the bases (as they're solid Talley ring/base mounts) and check for axial alignment to the bore.  Obviously 0.0 degrees windage, yet -0.0318 deg. elevation (for a 100yd. zero, though may set angle for a 200yd./0 and adjust crosshairs).  Shim and remove minimal stock as required, then bed as you suggest.
 
3. Soft fitting (screws loose) the bases now bedded, I'll then bed the scope in the lower rings if needed (adding stock, doubtful yet if there is a tube roundness issue), using the upper rings for clamping bedding them as well, then recheck base to rifle seating, if needed rebedding (doubtful).
 
4. Align my crosshairs, tighten it all up, and sight in.
 
Overkill?  Yep, yet for me it's fun.  More so, I expect to end up leaving the rings and bases more intact then typically.  In the end, rock solid.
 
Failure or success, I'll report back the results.
 
B.E.F.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2013 at 08:27
All of this (and more) can be solved by 1-piece bases.

I'm just say'in!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2013 at 08:33
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

All of this (and more) can be solved by 1-piece bases.

I'm just say'in!


and a  (small 8 pound) hammer.... Big Smile

I use a lapping bar....just to make sure the rings that go into the dove tail bases are lined up straight before placing the scope in it. I use a one piece base on all my personal rifles, but customers are set in there way and want what they want..
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