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rifle problem or scope problem

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:23
trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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I've been trying to develop a load for my new Weatherby Backcountry for quite some time now, and am beginning to wonder if I have a problem of some sort. I took some loads out that have shot well in the past, and they shot all over the place today in the same kind of conditions. It almost seems as though I'm shooting double groups. I tried to shoot a five shot group today with a load that shot shot groups of 1/2" or less the last three times I shot it, and the first two went pretty much into the same hole, then one went to the right about an inch, and the next two right next to it, also to the right. I tried the second load, and it put one right where it should be, then the next high, and right, the third next to the first, and the fourth close to the second. I'm frustrated now, and wondering if I have a bedding issue, or a scope issue? I've never had a rifle do this to me before. It doesn't seem to be consistantly shooting to the same point of impact really either. It's always in the ballpark, but might vary by an inch or more. What do you guys think? Should I try a different scope on it? I have been thinking about the way they have a pressure point in the stock, and how the fluting on the barrel might make it sit funny on there, but I don't really want to invest money on having it rebedded if that isn't the issue. Please help. I'm lost, and at my wits end.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:34
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Do you have another scope that you can put on there and try? How many rounds have you shot through this rifle?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:38
trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Rifle has about 120 rounds through it, or so. I could take a scope off another rifle, although I was hoping not to. If it's probable that the scope is the problem, I'll have to do it I guess.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:42
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Trigger, have you checked your screws for proper torque on the scope rings and stock? If they check OK that's the next thing I'd do. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:43
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Im no expert myself. If it were me I would make sure the scope is attached properly without making it to snug. If that is not the problem then I would try another scope. I do not see how it could be a bedding issue if it was shooting fine before. I wish I could offer more, perhaps someone else has some ideas
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:48
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Trigger try the pressure point with a business card .and no the flutes will not interfere or detract from this. the best part is it's free and removable!also if that is a skinny barrel be content with 3 shot groups.


Edited by rifle looney - April/19/2009 at 21:50
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:49
trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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All screws were torqued before leaving the house today, and rifle was cleaned following my usual routine. I haven't really shot it enough to know that it was a great shooting rifle consistantly, but I know it should shoot better than 2-2 1/4" with precision handloaded match bullets.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 21:59
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We have seen a good group or two that you posted if this is a persisting problem I would dig deeper, if just this time out well then maybe you just were not up to it, this happens? did you make any changes in recipes? different hold on the gun? or different resting points on the forend?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 22:04
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There's a thought trigger. What about run out on your reloads? That may be part of it.  Just a thought!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 22:17
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OK fine start a thread then leave? see how you are. and you want your gun to be good?   geeeze!    Loco
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 22:28
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I used to shoot alot more when I was younger than now. Some days I just do not shoot very well. I agree with RL, I would try it again another day and try shooting 3 shot groups. I might also try shooting a different round after that....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 23:39
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Well, it wasn't just a today thing. I have shot some great groups with this gun, but they don't seem to be consistant. One day they shoot great, and the next they shoot like today. I keep thinking it's something I'm doing at the loading bench, but I'm so careful to try to make each one perfect. I weight matched the cases this time, weight, and length matched the bullets, weighed each charge, checked OAL every round, checked primer depth, and seated them all to .003. I don't know what else I can do. How would I eliminate runout on my handloads? I usually roll them across the table, and once in a while I see one that wobbles a bit, but don't know what to do about it. I'm still using the lee Collet neck sizer, and a Redding body die. I've been running them through the Lee factory crimp die when they are done, and that doesn't seem to affect runout either.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 06:22
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Trigger, I have been where you are now. The causes can be manyfold. Obviously the starting point is whether the rifle is capable of a 1 inch or less 5 shot group. My experience tells me that most thin barrel hunting rifles cannot do it. If it is a thin barrel, count to 60 between each shot.
I have chased thin barrel rifle (as in normal hunting rifle profile) accuracy before and re-bedded, re-scoped, re-triggered you name it. Nothing really worked. I now accept them as 1 to 1,5 inch MOA rifles.
If the rifle is capable, then the next is to check scope mounts, stock screws etc. A heavy trigger will also make it difficult to pull the shots consistently.
Then there is your barrel cleaning regime. Try not to overclean your rifle. Do not use a copper solvent and fire at least 5 x 5shot groups. Only use a powder solvent cleaner.
Another possibility is that the rifle likes the bullets seated closer or further from the lands now that you have put a few rounds through it.
I also found that Sierra Matchkings to be the only bullet that gave consistent results. Other bullets seemed to be finicky for this or that reason.
Hope this helps.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 07:27
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Trigger, I have been where you are now. The causes can be manyfold. Obviously the starting point is whether the rifle is capable of a 1 inch or less 5 shot group. My experience tells me that most thin barrel hunting rifles cannot do it. If it is a thin barrel, count to 60 between each shot.
I have chased thin barrel rifle (as in normal hunting rifle profile) accuracy before and re-bedded, re-scoped, re-triggered you name it. Nothing really worked. I now accept them as 1 to 1,5 inch MOA rifles.
If the rifle is capable, then the next is to check scope mounts, stock screws etc. A heavy trigger will also make it difficult to pull the shots consistently.
Then there is your barrel cleaning regime. Try not to overclean your rifle. Do not use a copper solvent and fire at least 5 x 5shot groups. Only use a powder solvent cleaner.
Another possibility is that the rifle likes the bullets seated closer or further from the lands now that you have put a few rounds through it.
I also found that Sierra Matchkings to be the only bullet that gave consistent results. Other bullets seemed to be finicky for this or that reason.
Hope this helps.
4+ especially on checking the stock screws and make sure they have loosened.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 07:28
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not loosened.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 08:11
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The other question is whether your previous good groupings were a 3 shot or 5 shot grouping. That makes a big difference. I have a lot of targets that would have been bugholes if I stopped at shot 3.
The thinner fluted barrel on your model (Backcountry) would be less accurate then a solid barrel of the same diameter. It is just possible that the rifle will not be better then one and a half inch as per their specifications on their website. The trigger is also adjusted at the factory at about 3lbs, so unless you make it a bit lighter (1 and 1/2lbs), I think you will also pull the shots in a 5 shot grouping.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:10
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A question about crimping your bullets.  I have never crimped any of my rifle bullets so I really don't know much about it.   But for my match loads I actually use a bushing die to make sure that they all have the exact same neck tension from round to round.  It seems to me that crimping could cause some variance which could deter from ultimate consistency from round to round.  Of course like I said I don't do it so maybe I am wrong.

I would also try seating off the lands a little further just to see what it does.  I actually found with my precision rifle it likes .010 better than like .002-.006. 

And maybe you are just not in a velocity node for that round barrel combo.  If you are not in a node, then your bullet might not be stable yet by the time you are reaching 100 yards.  The thinner the barrel the more it whips and the smaller your velocity node will actually be.  It might only have 15 to 20 fps nodes, so they could be hard to find.  Try some 200 yard groups or do some more velocity changes to try and find a node.  If you are in a node then your bullet should be stable as it leaves the barrel and should not need time to stabilize.  I have heard some people say that a .300 should not be shot for best groups at 100 yards because it needs time to stabilize.  Personally I think that is BS as I shot a few 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups with my 300 WSM at 100 yards before I sold it and am pretty certain I was in my node.

Anyway, just a couple more thoughts
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:19
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Supertool, you are quite correct on advising to look for the correct node. Two things however: 1 he says that this load has worked before and 2 using the incorrect node does not destabilize the bullet per say.
Finding the correct node indicates that the bullet is leaving the barrel at a point where barrel whip is the least. Accuracy or grouping is improved through matching bullet speed with barrel whip. So shooting  100yds or 200yds at 200yds rather then 100yds and having the wrong "node" or load, would not fix the problem or stabilize the bullet. Rather by slowing the bullet down or speeding it up (using more or less powder) the grouping can be improved.


Edited by 8shots - April/20/2009 at 10:28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:23
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im going to start with this question, trigger did you change powder lots??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:35
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But I guess that goes back to my crimping question then. (I guess not just crimping only, but any difference that could raise your velocity spread)  If the nodes are small like they supposably can be on thin barrel then having possible different neck tension from round to round could cause enough variance in velocity to put him in and out of a node from shot to shot. 

A bullet that is not asleep when leaving the barrel will not be as accurate as one that is at close ranges because it is not stable.  It can't be, if the bullet has yah in it vs. one that does not it is going to change your POI. But with time and distance a bullet will stabilize, thus the reason why I hear lots of people say magnums will not shoot as well up close.  They just have not found a node.
Everything I have read about nodes has lead me to believe that having your bullet leave the barrel when the resonation is at the action end of the barrel will dramatically change your group consistency because there will be no yah in the bullet. 

I guess most of my info on this has come from shooting PMs to Vern Harrison about it.  That is how he has explained it to me, or at least how I took his explanations.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:42
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

im going to start with this question, trigger did you change powder lots??


That is actually a question I had too.  With a .300 it would not take long to burn through a lb of powder.  That is why I usually buy 20 or 30 lbs of powder at a time, then if they are different lots I mix them all together in a big bucket so they all become the same lot. Bucky
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:45
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Supertool, we are talking of two different things. All bullets yaw and spin around there point. At a certain velocity, which only comes in at around 600 yds + for the 308 Win, does the bullet "go to sleep" and travels with very little yaw.
So you are not wrong with your statement, just that bullet yaw is caused by other factors then "correct barrel node" and "go to sleep" at much further distances then what the average guy shoots at.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:46
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removing as many variables as you can is a huge part of the puzzle.
on a side note, i havent ever had a magnum that wouldnt shoot at least one of my handloads into a nice group at 100yds, i was starting to worry about my .264 until i tried h-1000. sometimes you just cant except "good enough"
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:54
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See this thread http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm
courtesy of Dale.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 10:55
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It's been a while since I posted but I too have a Backcountry in 257. I have been able to shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards. However after 4 rounds the barrel is so hot I could barbecue of of it. It takes about 20 minutes for it to cool enough to fire again. They are thin barrels but are also capable of superior accuracy. I don't reload but use factory ammo. I have a Swarovski PH scope with their SR rail system which is the best mounting system I have ever used. I guess what I am saying is most Weatherby rounds run hot and the Backcountry is built for hunting and not benchrest shooting. I hope this helps.
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