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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 14:17
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Tell me what you guys think.  On my precision 700 I have the stock trigger (not the new xmark) it has been set by my smith at 3lbs.  I don't mind the trigger and it works well, but if possible I would like something a little better.  It is almost not noticeable, but it has the slightest amount of creep in it.  To be honest my gunsmith says he cannot feel it as do several of my buddies that have tried it.  But when I am down prone and slowly building up pressure for the break, I can feel it move ever so slight before it breaks.  I don't really notice it unless I am really really in the "zone" so to speak consentrating on the perfect trigger press.  Like I said not real noticable, but I feel it is something that could help my shooting a bit by getting a smoother more precise break.  I trust my gunsmith knows what he is doing, he has been smithing for like 40 years and the rifle he built me shoots amazing, so I don't think it is a flaw in his work.  I am thinking it is just the trigger itself.

Is this something that could be corrected by a new trigger like a Timney or Rifle basic?  I have tried a Jewel, but not enough to notice if it did the same thing.  And to be honest I don't really want to spend the cash on a Jewel.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think.

Thanks

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 14:38
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My thought on it is that if it bothers you, you should fix it.  If YOU think you have a "creepy" trigger, it will probably bother you until you do something about it.  Since most of the shooting job is mental, you have to somehow fix everything that might impact your mental state.  If everything else about the trigger is good to you, perhaps go spend some time with another rifle and then come back to this one.  You may find the trouble was only in your perception...  We sometimes convince ourselves things are one way when they are not so much...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 14:50
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Those are some good thoughts Dan.  And I have done that to an extent.  I have a couple Timney AR Triggers which I shoot with quite a bit, one of them being my precision AR and it is also a 3 lb trigger.  I do not seem to notice a creep in it as I do the 700 trigger.  That is why I am wondering if the aftermarket trigger will be any better.  I have spent a lot of time searching and reading and you always get the people that say a properly adjusted stock 700 trigger is as good as anything.  But since I don't really have the option of using some of the other aftermarkets brands I have no way of finding out for sure if 700 triggers really are as good or if it is just a case of people saying that because they don't know any better.

I know for sure the creep is there, and I know it bugs me a little.  But I also know I could live with it if that is as good as it gets.  I still shoot good and it breaks well I just want it better if possible.  I guess I am starting to get to the point in my shooting that I am seeing some of the limits/weaknesses in my gear vs. how I want/need it to be.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 15:08
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I've had great luck with Timney triggers.  However, I'm not a big Remington user.  I've shot some over the years, but not enough to say I was Remington smart.  I have one now, the Etronx, and the trigger on it is superb.  Set at the factory and I've had no need to adjust it.  I've had a custom rifle with a Jewell trigger and it was fantastic, but my former Marine gunsmith did not like them, would not install them, and used only Timney.  I've had three M70's with replacement Timney triggers.  In two instances, I noticed an improvement, in one I did not.  My Browning rifles I've never had any trigger work done, but my Stalker could probably use some.  It "creeps" a little.  I have to concentrate harder whenever I shoot it.  My Voere I did some adjustment on (lighter after set trigger is set), but other than that it is the best trigger I have ever touched.  I would put one of those on every rifle I have, if I could.  If all triggers were created equal, and factory triggers were equivalent to the after market, all rifles would be sporting their "stock" triggers...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 15:35
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Jewell has the finest trigger pull of any I've ever experienced.  It is a 3-lever design, so a typical 2-lever trigger such as Timney and Rifle Basix can never be safely set as light or have as little creep as is achievable with a Jewell.  When properly set, trigger movement is almost inperceptible with a Jewell (and other 3-lever trigger designs, for that matter).  Both Timney and Basix make good triggers.  I have triggers from both on several rifles.  I like the feel of Basix triggers a tad better than Timney.  If your current trigger bugs you, I would get Rifle Basix.

Depending on the pull weight of your stock 700 trigger, the creep you feel may be necessary for safety.  As you get lower in pull weight with a 2-lever trigger, more sear engagement is required to maintain the same level of safety as was required with greater pull weight (spring resistance).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 15:59
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I've had a custom rifle with a Jewell trigger and it was fantastic, but my former Marine gunsmith did not like them, would not install them, and used only Timney. 
 
That probably has a lot to do with the intended application of the rifle and the philosophy of your former Marine smith.  A typical 3 lever trigger like the Jewell, being more mechanically complex, is less tolerant of grit and residue.  It is a very precisely fitted mechanism, and if dirt, grease, or gelled oil residue gets inside the trigger housing, it can gum it up and make it not work.  This is much more likely to happen on a hunting rifle than a target or "fair weather" varmint rifle.  I'm referring to a M700 style drop-in trigger, not a Jewell AR trigger.  I've even seen this happen with a stock Remington 700 trigger, in fact.  In the instructions provided with their triggers, Jewell advises against using any oil whatsoever in their trigger and recommends that it be flushed out periodically with lighter fluid.  The main virtue of the old style Winchester M70 trigger for hunting use is the fact it was incredibly simple and wasn't enclosed in a housing, so it was totally reliable and virtually immune to getting gummed up.  I would imagine a former Marine would likely place more value on ultimate foolproof reliability than the best possible trigger pull.  It's a tradeoff -- simpler triggers with fewer moving parts are less affected by dirt and residue, but cannot provide as good a trigger pull as more complex designs with compound leverage and a separate actuator lever.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 16:15
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   Ted,you hit the nail on the head at least in my case with creep/safety issue.  When I had my S&W(Howa) work done in '85 the smith said he lightened the trigger as ligth as he dare as lighter WOULD AFFECT THE SAFETY.  It left a bit of creep as he said it would and I just couldn't live with it. When Timney came out with a replacement I got one.  Had him install it and the creep was gone.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 16:17
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Dangit Ted, now you are going to make me just live with the factory one til I can justify the Jewel.  Way to go.  Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 16:29
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  supertool I also have felt the "pain" your going through with the 700 trigger, however there is a good fix to your situation without having to spend the extra cash on a aftermarket trigger. I fixed mine myself with great results. I sent you a PM.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 16:34
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Send me a PM on this too, yellowdog.  I'd love to hear your input on this. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 16:52
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 PM inbound.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:05
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That's the adjustment procedure for a 700 trigger.  I'm sure his smith followed that exact process.  He most likely did as much as possible within the design limitations of the trigger.  You can only adjust a stock 700 trigger so light until you will have to increase sear engagement to maintain safety.  You can adjust it to feel about the same as a Timney, but you won't ever get a stock 700 trigger to be as light and creep free as a Jewell... or for that matter, a Basix.  Not one that will pass the slam fire safety tests anyway.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:08
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I told yellowdog in a reply PM that I did that I followed that procedure at first, but was not happy with it.  Then I took it to the smith and it made it better than I was able to do it. 

I guess a better explanation of my issue is;  The creep is so small in reality that I bet most people would not notice it for hunting and plinking type of shooting.  I would almost classify it as travel before it breaks more than creep.  As it does not seem like loose crap it is moving through, but actually movement as the sear is releasing the cocking mechanism.  Like I said it is very minimal, but I do notice it with the kind of shooting I do with that rifle and just want it better.

  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:19
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    I set my 700VS at 2 1/2 lbs. I wouldn't want any lighter, but that weight does pass slam fire using that method. My others are at 3lbs.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:19
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  I forgot to add that I did install and use a trigger shoe until Timney FINALLY came out with a trigger for the Vanguard/Howa.  It definitely made a diff but I still replaced the oem trigger.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:21
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I've had a custom rifle with a Jewell trigger and it was fantastic, but my former Marine gunsmith did not like them, would not install them, and used only Timney. 
 
That probably has a lot to do with the intended application of the rifle and the philosophy of your former Marine smith.  A typical 3 lever trigger like the Jewell, being more mechanically complex, is less tolerant of grit and residue.  It is a very precisely fitted mechanism, and if dirt, grease, or gelled oil residue gets inside the trigger housing, it can gum it up and make it not work.  This is much more likely to happen on a hunting rifle than a target or "fair weather" varmint rifle.  I'm referring to a M700 style drop-in trigger, not a Jewell AR trigger.  I've even seen this happen with a stock Remington 700 trigger, in fact.  In the instructions provided with their triggers, Jewell advises against using any oil whatsoever in their trigger and recommends that it be flushed out periodically with lighter fluid.  The main virtue of the old style Winchester M70 trigger for hunting use is the fact it was incredibly simple and wasn't enclosed in a housing, so it was totally reliable and virtually immune to getting gummed up.  I would imagine a former Marine would likely place more value on ultimate foolproof reliability than the best possible trigger pull.  It's a tradeoff -- simpler triggers with fewer moving parts are less affected by dirt and residue, but cannot provide as good a trigger pull as more complex designs with compound leverage and a separate actuator lever.
Ted, you are right and I agree totally with that philosophy, just didn't want to start another trigger war.  I really don't have any use for a pure target/varmint trigger/rifle.  I suspect my Etronx would serve that purpose quite handily if I were to pursue it, but it's so accurate the BRers won't let it compete.  Having had a Jewell and the Timneys, I don't notice enough difference to justify the cost difference anyway.  Loved the Jewell trigger, just didn't need it, never hunted with that rifle which is why I sold it... too pretty to hunt with.  The Timneys I have provide all the trigger response I need for the type of shooting I do.  If I ever get into benchrest, which I really don't think I will... not that much interest for me... I will probably use Jewell or some other similar.  The Voere double set trigger is pretty amazing.  Heck, I even LIKE most of the stock triggers, but sometimes one just HAS to move up...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:35
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[QUOTE=yellowdog]    I set my 700VS at 2 1/2 lbs. I wouldn't want any lighter, but that weight does pass slam fire using that method. QUOTE]
 
Me too. I love my old Remmy trigger. Most people "lucky enough" to fondle Black Betty, think she's had a boob job, but no...she's all natural!!  Wink


Edited by cheaptrick - October/26/2009 at 17:46
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:43
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both of mine 673& 700 are both set at around 4lbs im not as picky as the rest of you guys. course these are my hunting rifles too.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 17:46
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THis one sounds pretty darn good.  But it is almost $400.  Say What

http://www.huberconcepts.com/Remington700.htm


Edited by supertool73 - October/26/2009 at 17:46
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 18:04
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Having had a Jewell and the Timneys, I don't notice enough difference to justify the cost difference anyway.  Loved the Jewell trigger, just didn't need it, never hunted with that rifle which is why I sold it... too pretty to hunt with.  The Timneys I have provide all the trigger response I need for the type of shooting I do.  If I ever get into benchrest, which I really don't think I will... not that much interest for me... I will probably use Jewell or some other similar.  The Voere double set trigger is pretty amazing.  Heck, I even LIKE most of the stock triggers, but sometimes one just HAS to move up...
 
The only time you really benefit from a Jewell 700-style trigger is on a competition rifle where an extremely light trigger -- less than 5 oz. -- is a virtue.  I have a benchrest rifle with a 2 oz trigger, for example.  So, I'm not surprised that you didn't notice much difference.  With a 2 - 4 lb trigger pull typical of a hunting rifle, having a Jewell trigger is not a wise use of money IMO, because you can get almost as good a trigger pull at those "hunting" weights with a Basix.  A properly adjusted Remington or Timney trigger isn't far behind.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 18:06
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And that's when the fight started...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 18:11
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No fighting, bro; I'm agreeing with you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 18:13
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

THis one sounds pretty darn good.  But it is almost $400.  Say What

http://www.huberconcepts.com/Remington700.htm
 
I've heard Huber triggers are nice, but at their asking price, I'm not likely to get any trigger time behind one.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 18:27
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

No fighting, bro; I'm agreeing with you.
 
Joking...
 
However, the trigger on my Laredo is set at 1.5lb, on the custom rifle came from the builder at 3/4 lb.  It was really nice, but certainly no nicer than the one on the Voere which is at 8oz.  Doesn't seem like a 2oz trigger would have any "feel" to it.  I've never shot with a trigger set at 2oz... Maybe one of these days I'll make it to your area and we can try it out...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 18:55
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In benchrest, where rifles are often shot free recoil, with the shooter sometimes touching nothing on the rifle except the trigger shoe, a super light trigger helps reduce the possibility of any shooter-induced movement on the rifle that can spoil tiny groups. 

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