Oh I agree that a lot of the new cartridges that have come out in the past ten years ( in lots of calibers) have some improvements in numbers, etc. But, I don't believe that they are going to drive any of the old good ones to obselescence. Some people must have the last inch of speed they can get, etc., etc.
I, myself, think that the Light Magnum ammunition is a neat thing---a little EXTRA horsepower...!! But there is an awful lot of the old stuff that I like, and an awful lot of the old stuff that I want to get AGAIN, because I lost a lot of firearms a few years ago in a divorce.
A difference of 100 fps in the 110 gr..........Same for the 130 gr..........150 fps. difference for the 140 gr.........and 200 fps. for the 150 gr................The above differences will be further reduced by giving an equal barrel length to the 270 WSM!......With equal barrel lengths, either way you cut it, they are both close enough to not make any significant difference on the game, as both have enough energy at 500 yards, with the a slight advantage going to the Weatherby as a flatter shooter.... Since each rifle is different, the #`s will vary! In certain rifles the gap may close more. Both 270`s might be even closer in comparison than the 300 Win. vs. 300 Weatherby!............The 270 Wby., although a slighty better performer, does not overwhelm or completely blow away the 270 WSM in any way!! For the reduced price (well under a Mk5), types of lighter rifles available, the shorter action, I`ll still go with the 270 WSM and take my chances on the reloading bench with the newer short mag powders, to which some do work better in the shorter, fatter mag casings than they will in the longer, skinnier casings.....Given a 26" tube, the 270 WSM, with some reloading experimentations and some great powder, the velocity gap between the two can be closed down to within a very small overall percentage, guessing about 1% to 3% depending on the loadings!............
BS your numbers are all wrong. The 270 Wby. out performs the WSM by a relatively wide margin that your numbers incorrectly describe. Look at an updated ballistics program.
BS your numbers are all wrong. The 270 Wby. out performs the WSM by a relatively wide margin that your numbers incorrectly describe. Look at an updated ballistics program.
.......................A relatively WIDE MARGIN you say??? Well Well! Let`s just see here shall we!!.........You do not list a source and include any #`s, but here is another source of mine, seperate from the one I used previously!!
These #`s come directly from my `08 Hodgdon Annual Reloading Manual as maximum velocities for each individual bullet weight. I`m not going to list the charges, COL`s or anything else, just the bullets, their weights and the top velocities for each bullet weight listed!
270 WSM w/24" barrel 270 Wby. Mag. w/26" barrel
90 gr. SIE HP.......3789 fps. 90 gr. SIE HP.........3647 fps.
100 gr. SPR HP....3613 fps. 100 gr. SPR SP.......3666 fps.
110 gr. HDY HP....3436 fps. 110 gr. HDY HP......3482 fps.
130 gr. BAR TSX...3232 fps. 130 gr. SPR SP......3262 fps.
140 gr. SFT SP.....3165 fps. 140 gr. HDY BTSP..3145 fps.
150 gr. HDY SP....3071 fps. 150 gr. NOS PAR....3132 fps.
160 gr. NOS PAR..2913 fps. 160 gr. NOS PAR...3051 fps.
Dolphin!........If my previous #`s were ALL wrong as you state; THEN HODGDON`S #`s, IN THIS CASE, ARE ALL WRONG TOO!!???
For the 150`s, a difference of 61 fps. in the Wby`s favor!.............WHOOPIE!
For the 160`s, a difference of 138 fps. in the Wby`s favor!...........WHOPPIE!
OK! Let`s now add on 2" of barrel length for the 270 WSM!!!! And let`s also factor in the new powders specifically designed to increase the velocity in the shorter mags, but may not always do so in the longer mags, in which case the #`s have not been published yet. Maybe REL 17 for starters, as one example??
I don`t see here, from this Hodgdon source and my last one, a relatively wide margin between the two!! As a matter of fact, I see a very close comparison!! In quoting my latest Sierra manual under the 270 WSM I find; quote;;;; "Delivering another 200 fps. above its older stable-mate, it rivals the performance of the Weatherby offering!" Unquote!...I don`t consider one cartridge rivaling the performance of another as,,,"a relatively wide margin" of seperation. Apparently, neither does Sierra, Hodgdon, or my other source!
Like I said before, I`d much rather take a new 270 WSM rifle, at a much greater reduction in price, put a real nice $500 or so scope on it and still save hundreds of $$$$ over what a new MK5 would cost just by itself,,,,,, BEFORE THE SCOPE!!!
If someone really wants a 270 Wby. then its always better to get what one wants regardless of cost. The Mk 5 is certainly a great piece!
But IMHO! For the difference in overall ballistic performance, the cost of a 270 Wby. MK5 + a scope, vs a 270 WSM + scope,,,,is not justified! Even if the #`s above were a little further apart in the lighter bullets, my opinion and observations would still be the same. In the final analysis, the field results would still be the same for both rounds on the same game being hunted!!
BS your numbers are all wrong. The 270 Wby. out performs the WSM by a relatively wide margin that your numbers incorrectly describe. Look at an updated ballistics program.
.......................A relatively WIDE MARGIN you say??? Well Well! Let`s just see here shall we!!.........You do not list a source and include any #`s, but here is another source of mine, seperate from the one I used previously!!
These #`s come directly from my `08 Hodgdon Annual Reloading Manual as maximum velocities for each individual bullet weight. I`m not going to list the charges, COL`s or anything else, just the bullets, their weights and the top velocities for each bullet weight listed!
270 WSM w/24" barrel 270 Wby. Mag. w/26" barrel
90 gr. SIE HP.......3789 fps. 90 gr. SIE HP.........3647 fps.
100 gr. SPR HP....3613 fps. 100 gr. SPR SP.......3666 fps.
110 gr. HDY HP....3436 fps. 110 gr. HDY HP......3482 fps.
130 gr. BAR TSX...3232 fps. 130 gr. SPR SP......3262 fps.
140 gr. SFT SP.....3165 fps. 140 gr. HDY BTSP..3145 fps.
150 gr. HDY SP....3071 fps. 150 gr. NOS PAR....3132 fps.
160 gr. NOS PAR..2913 fps. 160 gr. NOS PAR...3051 fps.
Dolphin!........If my previous #`s were ALL wrong as you state; THEN HODGDON`S #`s, IN THIS CASE, ARE ALL WRONG TOO!!???
For the 150`s, a difference of 61 fps. in the Wby`s favor!.............WHOOPIE!
For the 160`s, a difference of 138 fps. in the Wby`s favor!...........WHOPPIE!
OK! Let`s now add on 2" of barrel length for the 270 WSM!!!! And let`s also factor in the new powders specifically designed to increase the velocity in the shorter mags, but may not always do so in the longer mags, in which case the #`s have not been published yet. Maybe REL 17 for starters, as one example??
I don`t see here, from this Hodgdon source and my last one, a relatively wide margin between the two!! As a matter of fact, I see a very close comparison!! In quoting my latest Sierra manual under the 270 WSM I find; quote;;;; "Delivering another 200 fps. above its older stable-mate, it rivals the performance of the Weatherby offering!" Unquote!...I don`t consider one cartridge rivaling the performance of another as,,,"a relatively wide margin" of seperation. Apparently, neither does Sierra, Hodgdon, or my other source!
Like I said before, I`d much rather take a new 270 WSM rifle, at a much greater reduction in price, put a real nice $500 or so scope on it and still save hundreds of $$$$ over what a new MK5 would cost just by itself,,,,,, BEFORE THE SCOPE!!!
If someone really wants a 270 Wby. then its always better to get what one wants regardless of cost. The Mk 5 is certainly a great piece!
But IMHO! For the difference in overall ballistic performance, the cost of a 270 Wby. MK5 + a scope, vs a 270 WSM + scope,,,,is not justified! Even if the #`s above were a little further apart in the lighter bullets, my opinion and observations would still be the same. In the final analysis, the field results would still be the same for both rounds on the same game being hunted!!
....Dolphin!........Also in my Hodgdon manual and to be fair, the Hodgdon manual also lists an IMR section for the 270 Wby. that I did not include and overlooked before! YOU GET A BOOST!....
It lists the following for a 270 Wby w/26" barrel
100 gr. HDY SP @.....3645 fps...a 21 fps.... loss vs the best listing above for the 270 Wby.
130 gr. NOS PAR @.. 3500 fps..a 238 fps. gain vs. the best listing " " " "
140 gr. HDY BTSP @..3325 fps..a 180 fps. gain vs. the best listing " " " "
150 gr. NOS PAR @...3215 fps..an 83 fps. gain vs. the best listing " " " "
Those increases are all with IMR 7828! Your ace in the hole there??? It appears so!.........So! The true overall differences between the 270 WSM and the Wby. are; 268 fps. for the 130 gr.,,,,160 fps. for the 140 gr.,,,,and 144 fps. for the 150 grainer! I`ll certainly grant ya that! Bigger differences with the 130, with smaller differences in the 140 and 150`s, all of which to the Wby`s favor!
But still! Let`s add another 2" of barrel length to the 270 WSM giving it a 26" er, which will reduce those gaps by about 30 to 60 fps. (15 to 30 fps. per inch), maybe even more depending on the individual rifles. And let`s try some of that new shorty mag powder too! Rel 17 may do for the 270 WSM what IMR 7828 does for the 270 Wby!
Either way though, in the grand overall scheme of things, I`ll still take a 24" or 26" 270 WSM w/scope, save a bunch of money and still do the same thing on the same game, at the same ranges as the 270 Wby!...... I`ll have to aim just a weeee bit higher though!
Thanks B Squeeze and Dolphin for the data debate. If one good thing can be concluded from these new variables is that the avid 270 fan can now build his custom rifle from any donor platform he may have on hand or choose to purchase. Reguardless of bolt face size or action length the 270 has joined other calibers in versitalitility across the board.
Now that it has bridge those gaps I expect to see it's bullet options expand as well. It certainly won't ever replace anything, but I'm glad to see this happen because I think it has been given a second life for the future. For example I never had any interest in a short action before, but now it may be something that fills a slot in the safe. And on the other side I am considering something in the 300 Win mag family. This topic may have been beat to death, and likely will again and again. But that is a good thing, because that means that there is a continuous flow of new commers looking to you guy's for help that they didn't find at the gun shop. Try not to get tired of repeating your experience. Everybody won't get to hear it the first time. Good job guy's!
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Thanks B Squeeze and Dolphin for the data debate. If one good thing can be concluded from these new variables is that the avid 270 fan can now build his custom rifle from any donor platform he may have on hand or choose to purchase. Reguardless of bolt face size or action length the 270 has joined other calibers in versitalitility across the board.
Now that it has bridge those gaps I expect to see it's bullet options expand as well. It certainly won't ever replace anything, but I'm glad to see this happen because I think it has been given a second life for the future. For example I never had any interest in a short action before, but now it may be something that fills a slot in the safe. And on the other side I am considering something in the 300 Win mag family. This topic may have been beat to death, and likely will again and again. But that is a good thing, because that means that there is a continuous flow of new commers looking to you guy's for help that they didn't find at the gun shop. Try not to get tired of repeating your experience. Everybody won't get to hear it the first time. Good job guy's!
.......................Sarge!...............Ya know though! To the dismay of just a very few, it`s fun beating and discussing topics to death. That`s how some of us semi retired guys kill some of our time!......... I owned, hunted with and reloaded a 300 Win. Mag. rifle for 35 years. Based on world wide ammo sales (in an article I read), it is by far the most popular 300 magnum on the planet. Without losing too much in overall ballistic performance (only 3.5% to 4.5%), I converted last year to the shorter action 300 WSM, in a rifle that`s lighter (2.5 lbs. w/scope) and more compact, being 9" shorter in OAL.
The shorter action rifles, whether in a compact or in a full length, are generally lighter. The only little drawback, if you can really call it that, is that the 200-220 gr. bullets in the 300 WSM, do give up more of a margin in velocity to the 300 Win., whereas the 180 grainers and lighter are very on par, with no discernable difference to really even consider.
Good luck with filling that extra slot in your safe!
well squeeze since you think the advantages of the weatherby are so minimal, i will say the same thing about the .375 ruger vs the .375 h&h, i take the h&h all day long, cause i know anywhere in africa i go somebody has a box of h&h shells cant say that about the ruger, YET i will say. but really the only advantage i see, if you want to call it one is the ruger comes in with a shorter action, performance wise, if you feel the wbys advantage is minimal i feel the same way about the .375 ruger.
They call me "Boots" 375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"
well squeeze since you think the advantages of the weatherby are so minimal, i will say the same thing about the .375 ruger vs the .375 h&h, i take the h&h all day long, cause i know anywhere in africa i go somebody has a box of h&h shells cant say that about the ruger, YET i will say. but really the only advantage i see, if you want to call it one is the ruger comes in with a shorter action, performance wise, if you feel the wbys advantage is minimal i feel the same way about the .375 ruger.
......Man Pyro! My feelings are really hurting!..........A little peeed there?..... Yes, I do believe that the 270 Wby`s advantage is minimal over the 270WSM given the same barrel lengths and I explained why...... That 375 Ruger!! What a lousy round! Who`d want that cartridge anyway! Man! I agree wit you brudder!!......So Pyro! When are you buying your new 375 H&H? Planning some extensive time at the bench along with a future African trip??.......
Pyro!...........I forgot to ask...... Do I get a slight hint from you, that you would possibly like to own a 270 Wby? By your last post, I got the impression, or it would seem that you were kind of standing up for it and possibly leaning in that direction.....Or! Were you just trying to get back at me (by bringing up and downgrading my 375 Ruger), because I have the opinion that there is a minimal gain by the 270 Wby. over the 270 WSM?...........I`m kind of stumped here, because I thought you hated all 270`s regardless of what 270 it was and any differences between any two 270 rounds, really shouldn`t matter to you, since you hate all 270`s to begin with............Perhaps I need to better explain myself..... Given the same barrel lengths, if two rounds are say within 100-200 fps. of each other, which in most re-loadings across the board, the Weatherby and the WSM are very likely to be, I don`t consider that a big blow out or a wide margin like some or many people may.....Factor in the additional cost of the Mk5 rifle without a scope vs. a very good quality 270 WSM rifle with a scope and the $ savings can still in the hundreds.....So when I say a minimal gain, I take everything into consideration; the benefits vs costs. To me, that extra Wby. Mk5, 100-200 fps MV, is not worth the extra hundreds of dollars, because any game hunted with either round, given the same range, truly won`t know the difference!
just trying to be relative, i figured if your comparing the wsm and wby and calling it a wash, then i consider the numbers between the h&h and ruger a wash as well, you must remember that the "bigbores" dont loose as much velocity as the smaller stuff does when the barrels are chopped, so if thats true i also expect them not to gain a whole hell of a lot when there tubes are say 26" long so even if the .375 ruger had a say 26" tube i still wouldnt call its advantage huge when compared to the h&h, kinda like your comparison to the wsm / wby see where im going here, its a little bit of me pulling your chain and also a little bit of oppinion. i dont desire any of the rifles we are talking about either by the way, the .270 wby is one of the top 3-5 most popular calibers in there lineup, probably only out sold by the 300wby.
no i dont have a soft spot for any .270's but im trying to be fair at the same time. the .375 ruger is a touch better than the .375h&h according to boddington, but he still says he would take the .375 h&h as his personal favorite for a buffalo gun
They call me "Boots" 375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"
just trying to be relative, i figured if your comparing the wsm and wby and calling it a wash, then i consider the numbers between the h&h and ruger a wash as well, you must remember that the "bigbores" dont loose as much velocity as the smaller stuff does when the barrels are chopped, so if thats true i also expect them not to gain a whole hell of a lot when there tubes are say 26" long so even if the .375 ruger had a say 26" tube i still wouldnt call its advantage huge when compared to the h&h, kinda like your comparison to the wsm / wby see where im going here, its a little bit of me pulling your chain and also a little bit of oppinion. i dont desire any of the rifles we are talking about either by the way, the .270 wby is one of the top 3-5 most popular calibers in there lineup, probably only out sold by the 300wby.
no i dont have a soft spot for any .270's but im trying to be fair at the same time. the .375 ruger is a touch better than the .375h&h according to boddington, but he still says he would take the .375 h&h as his personal favorite for a buffalo gun
.......................As I read back, I never called both 270`s a wash or equal. Hmmm!Nope! I didn`t! "Minimal" does not mean a "wash" as you put it, nor does it mean equal!
I`ll also beg to differ and kindly disagree with you on the differences between the 26" tube vs a 24" tube with these two 270`s.....The "smaller bores" don`t lose as much as you may think!
I have considerable experience behind a chrony with the 300 WSM. I have chronographed the same identical reloads from 2 300 WSM 24" tubes (friend`s rifles) and from my own 300 WSM 16.5" compact. Taking the average differences in velocity readings across the board, then dividing by 7.5" (difference in barrel length), I come up with an average velocity loss of between 14 to 31 fps. per inch of shorter barrel length.
Since each rifle is different and things may vary, I have no reason to believe otherwise for the 270`s and will stand with about a 15 to 30 fps. (in rounder #`s) per inch of difference which translates to a total difference of 30 to 60 fps for 2" of barrel length!..........
Yes! The #`s between the H&H and the 375 Ruger are more of a wash or a much closer comparison than both 270`s!... However! Using the same identical reloads, it just so happens that when you run the chrony #`s on a 20" 375 Ruger, which I have done, vs a 23" 375 Ruger African (same range session), which I have done, I find nearly the same differences as with the 300`s. In checking my notes, between both .375 Rugers there was an average difference of 23 fps per inch or a total of 69 fps in variance............
Setting aside the .375 Ruger cartridge itself, the reason I own one is primarily because of the rifle itself.......I don`t happen to see any 375 H&H rifles out there quite like the 20" Alaskan or the 20" Howa M1500, which are lighter, shorter in OAL, easier to handle, are less cumbersome, easier to carry and better handling in the thicker brush and cover while maintaining the same performance as a 24" 375 H&H..........Do you see any??
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum