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Remington 700 bolt head question?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2008 at 23:39
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Hey guy's let me tap into your custom build knowledge. As some of you may remember I am working on a custom 270 tactical/hunting rifle. Krieger is building the barrel and I have picked up a Rem 700 7mm for the donar rifle. In my research I have heard of suppossed occassions where the bolt head assembly was changed to  accommodate a caliber change. I have to question if it has actually been done because so far I haven't found any specific info concerning it. For cost sake I would prefer to simply change the bolt head if it is
do-able. I can have a complete bolt built to this action for around 175.00 but really hate to keep spending. Ofcourse you might say why not get a 270 donor but this was the best deal I could find as the barrel is damaged and I got it for a song. So I don't mind facing the bolt change, just want to explore my options. Your thoughts and experience is greatly appreciated. Thunbs%20Up
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What was the gun chambered for in the begining?  It may already have  the correct bolt face.  Look at a shell holder guide.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 09:02
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Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

What was the gun chambered for in the begining?  It may already have  the correct bolt face.  Look at a shell holder guide.
 
 
It is chambered in 7mm, had I been lucky to have found anything in -06 This action would be setting on go. Looking at the bolt, the bolt head is either pressed on or threaded or slotted and pinned. That being the case, unless it has been tacked it can be changed. I haven't bothered to contact Remington because if this was something they wanted available it would be on the market. I figure either the concept would hurt sales of other available components or there is some under lying problem or risk that I haven't been able to find yet.
 
Has anyone ever taken one apart or attempted to.?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 09:04
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Never heard of the bolt head being changed. It is quite common to open up the bolt face to go to the larger calibers. It is not a simple process and once you do so you will also need to weigh your extractor options as Remington uses a small clip inside the bolt face itself. Most go with the Sako extractor conversion at that point which I've done myself. As far buying a new bolt is concerned, such as the ones made by PT&G, you still need to have an extractor fitted, bolt handle welded on and the new bolt must be fitted and head-spaced for your action. Without knowing which "270" you are looking at and which "7mm" you purchased for this project, I don't what to speculate as to what issues could or would need to be addressed. I will only state that that a 7mm Remington mag will have a larger bolt face (.532) compared to a standard 270 bolt face (.473) so I'll just leave it at that for now. Hope this starts you on your way and was not confusing, Sarge
 
Roy
 
PS. I believe the bolt head is silver soldered on at the factory or a process very similar to that process. Again, I have never heard of someone just changing the bolt head.


Edited by Roy Finn - June/08/2008 at 09:09
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Savage bolts have the ability to change the bolt faces.  Obviously this does not help you.  I primarily deal with Mauser and Wby. actions and the issues Roy talks about are right to the point.  Since your barrel is going to need to be installed and head spaced with whatever you do with respect to the bolt and bolt face, I would leave it up to the same gun smith that is going to do the barrel work.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 14:13
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Actually, the time to work out all these details is before you start ordering expensive stuff.  You can build a custom rifle UP to a different caliber but it's pretty dang tough to build one DOWN to a different family of cartridges.  Building Up on a Mauser style would require grinding a tad off the extractor so it would slip over the new wider rim.  Building Up with a recessed bolt head will require reaming out the recess and working on extractors and possibly magazines---depending on how big you're going.
 
But going smaller!!  You need to get the right size action and bolt platform for your project.   
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Actually, the time to work out all these details is before you start ordering expensive stuff.  You can build a custom rifle UP to a different caliber but it's pretty dang tough to build one DOWN to a different family of cartridges.  Building Up on a Mauser style would require grinding a tad off the extractor so it would slip over the new wider rim.  Building Up with a recessed bolt head will require reaming out the recess and working on extractors and possibly magazines---depending on how big you're going.
 
But going smaller!!  You need to get the right size action and bolt platform for your project.   
 Well said.  The rifles that I put together I always based on the platform that I purchase.  I like to do all the work myself and I do not own a lathe, therefore I purchase a platform with a barrel in excellent condition and just do the "blue printing".
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2008 at 17:03
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Actually, the time to work out all these details is before you start ordering expensive stuff.  You can build a custom rifle UP to a different caliber but it's pretty dang tough to build one DOWN to a different family of cartridges.  Building Up on a Mauser style would require grinding a tad off the extractor so it would slip over the new wider rim.  Building Up with a recessed bolt head will require reaming out the recess and working on extractors and possibly magazines---depending on how big you're going.
 
But going smaller!!  You need to get the right size action and bolt platform for your project.   
 
 
Your dead on, thing is when planning what components I wanted to use in this project a heavier or even a magnum platform was what I had hoped to find. Giving a stiffer/stronger base for this rifle. "You Know" One of those things that I decided to work out the "little stuff" when it came up. This is not a big problem because I have a company in Oregon sitting on go if I decide to go with a  complete custom bolt. Probably less than 200.00.
My motive here is I really want to put alittle more $$ in the scope so I am chasing options for saving some cash. But not to the extent of compromising the quality of this build or risking something that could fail.  I could have a local shop I use copy a bolt head but if I can get my hands on a bolt from a Rem 270 or -06 I would have this licked. Good thing is if it didn't work I still have the place in Oregon. All of your imput is well received and appreciated. So anything that is thought to be helpful, in experience or concept "By all means" please share.
 
mr dawes,  You speak as though you may have attempted such a task. Tell us more!


Edited by Sgt. D - June/08/2008 at 17:05
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I wouldn't change the basics of the rifle like a bolt change.  Call Krieger and tell them to switch it to a 6.5 barrel (knowing their lead time you should have plenty of time to switch) and make it a 264 win mag or a 6.5 rem mag.  Either will match or exceed the 270 ballistically and you won't have to change the bolt face or worry about feeding/ejection problems. 
 
I don't think a gunsmith would be able to go from a .532 to a .473 bolt face but I could be wrong.   When I had a 300 win mag action to rebarrel I chose the 6.5 rem mag and can push a 140 gr bullet at 3100 fps and have, however I backed it back down to 3000 fps because that is what the gun wanted.
 
Why buy a Ford to put a new Chevy engine in it?  Something tells me that you are making problems that you will not realize until your are finished.
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Sgt D,
The bolt head of a Rem M700 is silver soldered to the bolt body in a section just behind the locking lugs.  Theoretically, the bolt head can be changed, but I wouldn't do it.
 
Generally when the bolt face is modified, it is counterbored open from .473" to .532" to go from standard to magnum cartridges, not vice-versa.  When you change from one cartridge case family to another, it isn't uncommon for feeding problems to follow.
 
You can techically reduce the bolt face diameter by welding/silver soldering an undersized bushing, counterboring it to .473", and refacing the bolt face in a lathe but I'm of the opinion that you should stick with the cartridge case family your action was designed for.  I've been down that road before when I chambered a M700 short action from a .308 family chambering to 7WSM, and after I had to modify the feed rails, feed ramp, magazine box, replace the follower, bolt face, and install a Sako style extractor, I would have been better off either chambering for something else or starting out with an action designed for the WSM family to begin with.
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

I wouldn't change the basics of the rifle like a bolt change.  Call Krieger and tell them to switch it to a 6.5 barrel (knowing their lead time you should have plenty of time to switch) and make it a 264 win mag or a 6.5 rem mag.  Either will match or exceed the 270 ballistically and you won't have to change the bolt face or worry about feeding/ejection problems. 
 
I don't think a gunsmith would be able to go from a .532 to a .473 bolt face but I could be wrong.   When I had a 300 win mag action to rebarrel I chose the 6.5 rem mag and can push a 140 gr bullet at 3100 fps and have, however I backed it back down to 3000 fps because that is what the gun wanted.
 
Why buy a Ford to put a new Chevy engine in it?  Something tells me that you are making problems that you will not realize until your are finished.
 Good idea, or to a 280 Remington where he can have choices of 120 grain to 165 grain bullets, with the 140 grain ammo approaching velocities of the 6.5 Remington magnum.  That is all in reference to factory ammo.  Handloading will give him many more choices in he 6.5 Remington magnum.
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Hey Dolphin, a 280 would not solve his problem, he's back to trying to use a .532 bolt face for the .473 bolt face of the 280.  Sticking with the bolt face he has then his choices are 6.5 rem mag, 264 win mag, 7 rem mag, 300 win mag, 338 win mag, 350 rem mag and 458 win mag.  I might have missed one or two but that is the main group. 
 
If he had plenty of mag room and his ejection port was long enough he could move up to a 300 RUM or the 338 RUM since the bolt face is within .001".   I am rebarreling a 338 win mag to a 338 RUM now but I went the expense of sending off for some 338 RUM cases and trying them out before I got started.
 
Sgt D, I don't really understand the reference to starting with a magnum action because it is stronger or a stiffer action either.  Actions are made to withstand a certain amount of internal pressures that are determined by case capacity,  bore size, powder charges, bullet weights, etc and a 338 RUM doesn't have any more internal pressure than a 270 winchester. 
 
Like Rifledude says you may have feeding or other problems later even if you get a new bolt.
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Just as an additonal note here, Sarge, a Remington magnum bolt is the same diameter as a standard long action bolt. The only difference is the inside diameter of the bolt face nose, .532 vs .473. All other demensions are the same. I only add this because it would be natural to assume that the magnum action is somehow stronger than a standard action and it is not. All other dimensions are the same between the two.
 
Roy
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Just as an additonal note here, Sarge, a Remington magnum bolt is the same diameter as a standard long action bolt. The only difference is the inside diameter of the bolt face nose, .532 vs .473. All other demensions are the same. I only add this because it would be natural to assume that the magnum action is somehow stronger than a standard action and it is not. All other dimensions are the same between the two.
 
Roy
 
 
 
This learning curve for my first build has been filled with assumed knowledge crashing and burning in the light of fact. As koshkin and the Squeezer can atest to I came into this with some, lets face it "backward understanding". I have no regrets though. When I'm done I will deffinently be the wiser. This build will have things to be remembered in any possible furture projects. Your right Roy, and Sakomato, I assumed that the action would have more beef. And the savings I acheived in this 7mm may go toward correcting the error. But the things that everyone has shown me will be addressed. I do plan to call some of these builders and see if any have a 270 or -06 action they might trade, and carry on.
Rifle Dude, for reasons the rest of the world is scratching its head over I am set on the 270. There are some practical reasons as well. I have the loading dies, lots of brass and when my daughter goes hunting with me she will carry my current 270 of which we will have plenty of ammo. Specifically loaded for each ofcourse. I must admit though, some of the things I've learned lately have me looking down the road for a future weapon of distance distruction. The potential of me being able to consistantly connect at 1500+ is something that I feel compelled to acheive. And OH! how fun it will be getting there.
 
Rifle Dude, Don't take my continued questions as stubborn persistance. But help me better undestand your advice. Is your concern for changing the b/head consist of proper alignment or heating or over heating the b/body? Maybe its both. Are there other things that come into play. Do you think the tube will warp or bow and and no longer operate in the slide tolerances.
If anyone else has experience in this area, please share also.  Thunbs%20Up
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Hey, I'll be the first to admit that many years ago, I thought the exact same thing regarding the strength of a magnum action. It would be a perfectly logical assumption. I happen to favor the 700 action, and being naturally inquisitive, I began to educate myself on various aspects of their design and construction advantages. I'm sure RifleDude knows more than I about rifle builds, but, suffice it to say, I have never heard of a gunsmith changing a bolt head on a 700 just to accommodate a different cartridge. Frankly, I don't think they would do it even if they were an authorized Remington repair center and you somehow damaged the boldface or lugs. They would simply fit you action with a replacement bolt. It's all about time and money in the end. To answer your question more specifically, it is possible to install a "bushing" in the bolt nose to accommodate a smaller cartridge head diameter, but as RifleDude stated, you would still need to address feed rail dimensions, magazine box change, cartridge follower change at the least for reliable functioning. When a gunsmith would install an under size bushing would most likely be in the case of re barreling a short action Remington chambered in something like a 243 to a 223 where the only real difference would be the cartridge head diameter. In that scenario, there would not be any feeding issues to address.
 
Roy
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Ted is right on with the bolt head sizing. You can sleeve the face and go with a Sako extractor or get a new bolt. Either can be done.
Regarding the cost of dies, quality dies can be picked up for $45. If you keep the magnum bolt face the 7mm or .264 magnums can be loaded to reduced power and the recoil will be moderate. This will eliminate the more costly bolt face change.
Then again, if you are a big .270 fan we can rub it into Pyro how far some people are willing to go to have oneWink.

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Yes, you can achieve the same ballistics with a 264 mag when you load it down to 270 velocities, but, you will be burning more powder in the 264 to get the same result. You will get longer throat life out of a 270 in the process. Early on, the 264 got a reputation for being a "barrel burner" due to it's overbore characteristics. Don't get me wrong, the 264 is a great long range performer, but it is not without fault.
 
Roy
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Hey Dolphin, a 280 would not solve his problem, he's back to trying to use a .532 bolt face for the .473 bolt face of the 280.  Sticking with the bolt face he has then his choices are 6.5 rem mag, 264 win mag, 7 rem mag, 300 win mag, 338 win mag, 350 rem mag and 458 win mag.  I might have missed one or two but that is the main group. 
 
If he had plenty of mag room and his ejection port was long enough he could move up to a 300 RUM or the 338 RUM since the bolt face is within .001".   I am rebarreling a 338 win mag to a 338 RUM now but I went the expense of sending off for some 338 RUM cases and trying them out before I got started.
 
Sgt D, I don't really understand the reference to starting with a magnum action because it is stronger or a stiffer action either.  Actions are made to withstand a certain amount of internal pressures that are determined by case capacity,  bore size, powder charges, bullet weights, etc and a 338 RUM doesn't have any more internal pressure than a 270 winchester. 
 
Like Rifledude says you may have feeding or other problems later even if you get a new bolt.
 Sorry, too early in the morning and got a little mixed up on case head sizes.  I completely understand the issue having done a lot of work on rifles my self, but was a little bleary eyed this am.  Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the correction.
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Agreed, I mention the .264 since it was already suggested. The 7mm downloaded with 140's would be my choice.
Or, the .270 would be great for Pyro's sake.
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Hey, I'll be the first to admit that many years ago, I thought the exact same thing regarding the strength of a magnum action. It would be a perfectly logical assumption. I happen to favor the 700 action, and being naturally inquisitive, I began to educate myself on various aspects of their design and construction advantages. I'm sure RifleDude knows more than I about rifle builds, but, suffice it to say, I have never heard of a gunsmith changing a bolt head on a 700 just to accommodate a different cartridge. Frankly, I don't think they would do it even if they were an authorized Remington repair center and you somehow damaged the boldface or lugs. They would simply fit you action with a replacement bolt. It's all about time and money in the end. To answer your question more specifically, it is possible to install a "bushing" in the bolt nose to accommodate a smaller cartridge head diameter, but as RifleDude stated, you would still need to address feed rail dimensions, magazine box change, cartridge follower change at the least for reliable functioning. When a gunsmith would install an under size bushing would most likely be in the case of re barreling a short action Remington chambered in something like a 243 to a 223 where the only real difference would be the cartridge head diameter. In that scenario, there would not be any feeding issues to address.
 
Roy
 
 
 
but as RifleDude stated, you would still need to address feed rail dimensions, magazine box change, cartridge follower change at the least for reliable functioning.
 
The box change I see because of capacity, But the rail I need your perspective. And I'm lost on the follower. Help!
 
I continue this line as a last resort now because I'm searching for an appropriate platform or will conceed to just order a replacement bolt and let Krieger tune it in on the blue-print. But do continue if you will.
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The cartridge follower is what you are looking at when you open the bolt. It is what you load your cartridges onto or down into so to speak. Because the diameter of the cartridge itself is different between a 270 and a 7mm Remington mag, the follower is shaped differently to feed the cartridges and hold the cartridges in place in the magazine well. The feed rails are located underneath the action and are a part of the receiver itself. They too, are different in dimension depending on which family of cartridge the action was designed for.
 
Roy
 
PS. My gunsmith buddy, Boby Hart (R. W. Hart&Son) once said about opening up feed ramps was kind of funny, but very true. If you make a mistake with the rasp you now have a single shot, not a repeater. Think of it like a haircut. We can make it shorter, but not longer.


Edited by Roy Finn - June/09/2008 at 17:33
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

 
Rifle Dude, for reasons the rest of the world is scratching its head over I am set on the 270. There are some practical reasons as well. I have the loading dies, lots of brass and when my daughter goes hunting with me she will carry my current 270 of which we will have plenty of ammo. Specifically loaded for each ofcourse. I must admit though, some of the things I've learned lately have me looking down the road for a future weapon of distance distruction. The potential of me being able to consistantly connect at 1500+ is something that I feel compelled to acheive. And OH! how fun it will be getting there.
 
Rifle Dude, Don't take my continued questions as stubborn persistance. But help me better undestand your advice. Is your concern for changing the b/head consist of proper alignment or heating or over heating the b/body? Maybe its both. Are there other things that come into play. Do you think the tube will warp or bow and and no longer operate in the slide tolerances.
If anyone else has experience in this area, please share also.  Thunbs%20Up
 
Sgt. D, my concerns are mainly that, to be blunt and to the point, I believe it's a collossal waste of time and money.  First of all, good luck finding a smith willing to solder a bushing into the bolt face and re-counterbore and face the bolt.  Then, you'll need to install a Sako extractor, unless the smith also cuts the groove for the factory Remington extractor.  By the time you finish with this, you're potentially looking at a lot of cost, and for what?  Then there's the very real issue of proper feeding.  Even if you completely change the bolt, you still have feed rail issues.  Right now, your feed rails are spaced further from the centerline of the magazine box to accommodate the larger diameter magnum case.  I have never tried converting from magnum to standard -06 family cartridge case, but I would think you'd have a problem with the cartridges popping loose from the magazine rail prematurely during feeding because of the wider span between the magazine rails on either side of the magazine.  You can possibly weld up material and then remachine it back to the proper rail spacing for the -06 family case, but again, why?  This will start to get expensive, especially if you buy a new bolt, when you can just find a used M700 action already designed for the -06 family case for probably around $250 or so.
 
Since you already have a .532" bolt face, if you like .270 caliber, why not just rechamber to .270 Wby?  Or, for another fairly mild-recoiling cartridge offering similar performance to the .270 Wby, but with better SD and BC, go for the .264 Win Mag.  Personally, if it were me, I would just stay with 7mm RM as it was designed for.  With 7mm, you have tremendous bullet selection in a cartridge that offers way more flexibility than .270 Win, along with better bullet selection and not much more recoil.  On top of that, I've found that 7 mags on average gave me better accuracy than the .270's I've worked with.
 
If you're dead set on having another .270, you will come out cheaper just buying a used action in good condition originally chambered for .25-06/.270/.280/.30-06 than to spend all the money for the modifications that will only result in an action not quite as good as one that had never been modified to begin with.  If you just like .277 caliber, chamber it for .270 Wby and have a super fast, flatter shooting .270.  Dies and brass are cheap compared to the expense and heartache you're poised to face by going the route you're wanting to go.
 
Trust me on this... DON'T DO IT!


Edited by RifleDude - June/09/2008 at 17:50
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Well this dog won't hunt.
 
a smith willing to solder a bushing into the bolt face and re-counterbore and face the bolt.  Then, you'll need to install a Sako extractor, unless the smith also cuts the groove for the factory Remington extractor. 
 
I see now why you were wondering "what was this guy thinking?" When I was thinking this thru (believe it or not) I was under the impression that the bolt head assemblies were available as a seperate unit. Like a firing pin assembly ect. but I have come to the resounding realization that I was wrong!!!. If that had been the case then I thought I would "with careful precision" remove the old and install the new. Though not recommended it is plausable. But after everyone's repeated caution I must concur that a more appropriate option is the way to go. And believe me I do appreciate your (all of you) patient instruction. I'm not from Missouri but I have that "show me" mentality that I know can get tire-some. It's not intentional but it's not easy to escape either. Thanks again for your help.
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That 270 Weatherby idea is an excellent one, Rifledude.  The only drawback would be the rounded shoulder, kinda don't like those much.  And if you had the barrel chambered to take out the extra throat length common to Weatherby's you would have to be careful not to shoot factory ammo.

I feel about the 7 mag the way pyro feels about the 270, no real good reason, just don't care for them much.  Way back I used to have to track down deer that were shot with the 7 mag, guys would use 140 ballistic tips and sometimes they would get real squirrely on impact.  I suppose with a well constructed 160 gr bullet they would be allright, but still have that bad feeling.
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

That 270 Weatherby idea is an excellent one, Rifledude.  The only drawback would be the rounded shoulder, kinda don't like those much.  And if you had the barrel chambered to take out the extra throat length common to Weatherby's you would have to be careful not to shoot factory ammo.

I feel about the 7 mag the way pyro feels about the 270, no real good reason, just don't care for them much.  Way back I used to have to track down deer that were shot with the 7 mag, guys would use 140 ballistic tips and sometimes they would get real squirrely on impact.  I suppose with a well constructed 160 gr bullet they would be allright, but still have that bad feeling.
 
 
That 270 Weatherby idea is an excellent one, Rifledude.  The only drawback would be the rounded shoulder.
 
I am intrigued but have zero experience with this one I will have to look into it. You raise a valid point, I haven't seen it yet but if I understand what you mean by rounded shoulder. It would make me wonder why.
 
I feel about the 7 mag the way pyro feels about the 270, no real good reason, just don't care for them much. 
 
I'm on the same page here. I have to credit it with past experience though. For elk size game I beleive it is one of the taylor made rounds. For whitetail and smaller it just doesn't have the best rep. Atleast not in this area. I recall several cases were ideal shot placement still resulted in long tracking events and a number of no finds. And I realize thats just going to happen but the 7mm was involved too often. There was a 9yr. period where I kept a log on such events on land I was managing and the 300 came in second. I don't recall 3rd or 4th place but the real culpret appeared to be the use of over weight bullets or heavy controlled expantion rounds. If I recall 85 % of no finds involved a bullet weight of 150gr. or heavier. And a large number of extended tracking events and some of the no finds involved bullets designed for heavier game reguardless of weight. Poor shot placement was overall a zero factor in the recovered deer and of course the no finds offered no info. I really miss that place, hope to some day soon get back into one.
Thanks for the imput sakomato. Thunbs%20Up
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