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Rem 700 + 10X42 SS

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 11:37
Ironman View Drop Down
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Hey guys new to the forum so bear with me on these questions if they have already been asked...

 

Ok so just from reading for about 5 hours straight (literally) all the disscussions about scopes here I'm pretty much sold on the 10X super sniper! lol And it seems that the Rem 700 is a very popular .308 to use it with. I have a .270 that I use for West Texas deer at ranges of 75-200 yds. but I don't think that will be good enough for say mule or elk in Oregon ranging past 200, so I decided to look into a .308. I have my sights set on the 700 LTR just because it is lighter and easier to carry around than the 700 P

 

My question is am I sacrificing any range or accuracy going with the shorter-barreled LTR over the P?

Also, can you get the LTR w/o the fluted barrel? Or would I even WANT to do that? (I like the look of the non-fluted barrel better lol)

 

Last thing, about the 10X SS....say I've sighted the rifle for 200yds and hunting elk in Oregon and all of a sudded a bull elk walks up to me at about 50 yds with a sign that says "shoot me" (haha I know I know but lets just say for arguments sake that I actually DO have one that close to me)...would that shot even be possible with a fixed 10X scope (due to the FOV)??? I've always used variable scopes and just dial it down for close shots but with the fixed I don't have this option.....

 

WOW didn't mean to make it so long....

 

Help is much appreciated!

 

Ironman

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 11:57
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the 10x will definitely make short shots more difficult - so that is something to think about.

 

for paper punching, a fixed 10 is great - for hunting, i would lean more towards a variable power.

 

HOPEFULLY soon, the fine folks at SWFA will complete the variable SuperSniper, then we will all be happy.

 

good luck, i hope this helps.  What is your max budget for a scope and we will think up a few options?

 

welcome to the OT.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 12:42
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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Short barrels and accuracy.

You give up nothing in terms of accuracy with the 20 inch barrel.  What you do lose from a  hunting perspective is velocity.  Velocity equates to energy delivered to the target, which might be an issue at some distance.
Along with velocity you give up the ability to use heavier bullets, due to lower velocity which translates into less energy and greater trajectory, even at elk hunting distances of 300-400 yards. 

Fixed 10x at 50 yards with a 200 yard zero.
If you don't mind the bullet being about 3/4 inch off point of aim it's no big deal.
Fast way to take a close shot with a high magnification scope is to keep both eyes open.  One eye sees the target and the other will superimpose the crosshair onto the target.  Works every time.

The 270.
No reason why it's not a 400 yard elk rifle.  In eastern Oregon it's been the desert mulie cartridge of choice for decades.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 13:07
Ironman View Drop Down
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Thanks guys,

 

I can afford to buy a 3-400$ scope, but MAYBE I can go a little higher. I would prefer variable since like you said it is better suited for hunting, and want to have it in mil-dot so I can learn how to use that.....which brings me to another question...are the mil-dots on a varable scope only accurate at a certain magnification, or can you use them at any magnification???

 

I would like to wait for the Vari SS but just by reading the forum it looks like they've been talking about it for around 3 years but nothing's come up...any idea when it possibly will?

 

And about the .270...does it really have enough knock-down power for elk? Everyone tells me it doesn't...of course I know it all has to do with shot placement (and I am very confident in my shooting) but everyone I talk to says its not enough....and thanks for the two eyes open tip...pretty cool!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 13:12
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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I have a friend who hunts elk every year with his 270 and lets put it this way --- --- Sgt - Maj Becvar was a Ranger Sniper Instructor and his freezer never seems to run short of elk meat.  If I was going to switch to a different heavier rifle I would look at (30-06). The 30-06 is almost identical to the 270 with the exception that you can load heavier bullets 180 grain to 220 grain +. The rule of thumb for living around Grizzley Bears is that guns should be 30-06 and larger. The ammunition that seems to be most available and most reasonably priced is - good guess  30-06.  What 30 cal is about 200 feet per second faster that a .308 -  right again 30-06.  Now having said that I happen to have a couple of rifles. One is a PSS .308 and it is not even in the running of what I would take, it's heavy. First of all you will be walking up and down mountains so a rifle that has a heavy target barrel will be more difficult to carry which means the accuracy it adds better be a huge advantage. Remmington rifles can  be worked on by good gunsmiths and made to shoot well given time and money. Savage Accutriger guns seem to come out of the box shooting good. But I have a Ruger stainless 300 win mag that prints a nice tight group at 200 and that is probably the gun I would take, I did have it glass bedded but it seems to be just the right set up for hunting right barrel contour not to light not too heavy and long enough to get good velocity, and if it was a 30-06 that might be a better choice because the ammo is cheaper, I mean a lot cheaper and a lot more available. As for the scope - you could use a 10x but the disadvantage is when stalking or walking in. With a  Super Sniper 10x the advantage is being  able to dial in correction and shoot long distance. My choice of (reasonably priced) scope would probably be: ( I like some added magnification to compare animals at distance but your shots are often 4x to 6x )

8422 New Nikon 4-16x42 Monarch Riflescope                                                                                    New Nikon 4-16x42 Monarch Riflescope
  • Matte
  • BDC
  • 1"
  • Side Focus
  • Free SWFA Lens Pen w/ Purchase
SWFA: $449.95
More Info... Buy Now

So I suggest you use that on Ruger stainless 30-06

Rifle
KM77RBZ MKII

You might also consider Sako model 85 laminate stainless in 30-06 they have a very reliable extractor.  The Remmington guns are also a consideration but if you get one send it to GAPrecision in Kansas City and have the action trued and have it glass bedded or if you really want to have a accurate gun have GAP build you a rifle, if you can afford that we will talk about more expensive glass.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 13:17
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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FFP  scopes (First Focal Plane)  the reticle gets larger and smaller as  you adjust the power so the mil dot measuring works all the time but only a few scopes are FFP.  Most are rear focal plane and only mil  at the highest power.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 15:20
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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 I have a .270 that I use for West Texas deer at ranges of 75-200 yds. but I don't think that will be good enough for say mule or elk in Oregon ranging past 200, so I decided to look into a .308

 

 

are you serious??????

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 15:33
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I have a .270 that I can use for West Texas deer, but the .308 does the job better; and if you can deal with a little more mess, the .300WM really kills them dead.  Thus far, I've had nothing run from the .300: hit, drop, poop, die. Sometimes those last 2 get reversed.  "Hey, look, wild raisins!"

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 15:50
Ironman View Drop Down
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Rancid, so are you saying that the .270 is fine for elk or not? Apparently Dale thinks its more than enough but I'm just going off of what alot of people tell me as I've never hunted elk....I'm only using 130 gr. for W.TX deer so I'm assuming I'd have to go higher for elk right?

Edited by Ironman
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2007 at 16:26
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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no---- just curious why one would put a 308 over a 270, which in the same bullet wt. shoots 10 grs more powder.  believe everything a 308 can do a 270 can do better, been hunting with an FNC mauser-gift from uncle- abuot 20 years elk, deer, antelope, and what he hunted. shoots same bullet wts flatter than 30-06  because of higher BC in all wts. if your worried just use a heavier constructed bullet not necessarily a heavier bullet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2007 at 13:04
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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The formula for kinetic energy is 1/2 M x V(squared).

 

So, when it comes to kinetic energy - or killing potential - there are only 2 places to get more energy, mass or velocity.  Granted, you square the "V" which means small increases in velocity translate to large increases in energy; however, faster bullets tend to exit the target with more juice, meaning less energy transfer.

 

I carry a .45ACP every day for just this reason.  Yea, a 9mm can hold 15 or 17 and my .45 only carries 12, but I ain't looking to lay down a field of fire.  And though many +P ammos today in 9mm equal 45 for kinetic energy, they derive that increase through much higher velocities - and expanding bullets must expand at the right time and location, else they lose effectiveness quickly.

 

All that to say .270 and .308 are similar, but I've had less game run from a .308 impact than I have a .270 impact.  I know, I know, it's anecdotal, but, in my opinion, a 175-grain BTHP in .308 is a better killer than a 130-grain ballistic  tip .270. And, after extensive testing, those are what both rifles prefer - and shoot exceedingly well.

 

So, no, I personally would not hunt elk with a .270; however, much of that is due to the fact that I know .308 ballistics as well as I know my "ABC's".

 

Of the 2 schools of thought (bullet mass vs. bullet velocity), I am a mass guy.  Many will disagree with me.

 

Now, having said all that, my elk and carribou and wolf and black bear and hog gun is a Tikka T3 lite stainless with a great brake, a Conquest 4-14x44, and 200-grain BTHP rounds.  Thus far, with about 10 animals dead, nothing has run from it - all have dropped, pooped, and died on the spot where they were hit.  That doesn't mean they'd have run from a .270 or .308 - all were well hit, but the name of the hunting game is confidence, and I know the Tikka with that bullet will put a round in a coke can at about 300 yards - and that equals great confidence on the trigger.

 

It's long, sorry; the short answer is no, I wouldn't hunt elk with a .270.  Craig Boddington does and I respect that, but on the hunt, I prefer too much gun rather than not enough.  Then again, I do enjoy killing a hog at 500 yards because I can, and the guy next to me  with the .270 can't!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2007 at 14:42
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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not saying 308 won't work, but if you use one in wyo, idaho, montana, utah, colorado prepare for a lot of "going tactical on the elk" jokes from the locals.

Edited by Dale Clifford
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2007 at 16:48
8shots View Drop Down
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I would go along with the argument that mass is better than velocity. I would also argue that buying a 308 is to close to a 270. If I am buying and I do not want to go magnum, then a 30-06 makes the best sense. If I am not buying and have a 270 and a 308 in the gunsafe, I would take the 308 on the hunt.

You can take game at 25 yds + on 10x power. If it is standing, no big deal. If it is moving as in wounded or they just pop up close, it becomes very tricky.

I took a running kudu bull on 10X  (3 weeks ago). It popped out the shrub and came straight for me. All I saw was brown in the scope. I was maybe a bit lucky, but I took him full in the chest.



Edited by 8shots
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2007 at 17:30
Ironman View Drop Down
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Hmmm I'm kinda glad I opened this can of worms here....I've always been just a "point and shoot" kind of guy and have always done very well with shots under 200yds but now that I want to start tryin the longer ranges I just started to realize JUST HOW MUCH stuff there is that goes into it....all the info is much appreciated believe me...from both points of veiws...

 

Ok so I read something earlier today that said that the minimum energy that you would want your bullet to strike a medium sized game animal (ethically) is at about 800 (ft-lbs)...does this sound about right?

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2007 at 17:59
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Ok so one more thing....I ran some numbers and according to the Remington Shoot ballistics program, the best 150 gr. in .270 is the Nosler Partition with a BC of .465...the 168 gr. BTHP in .308 has a BC of .475 (I believe this is the on that Rancid was referring to???...)

 

Here is the comparisons of the two at 500yds with a 200yd zero under the same atmospheric conditions....

 

.270: 1967 Velocity (fps), 1288 Energy (ft-lbs), -68.82 Drop (inches), -43.02 Path (inches)

 

.308: 1845 Velocity (fps), 1270 Energy (ft-lbs), -77.66 Drop (inches), -48.90 Path (inches)

 

SO my question is this...is the very slight edge in mass that the .308 has over the .270 going to make much of a difference when you shoot an elk in a vital area?

 

I haven't really taken a side on the Velocity vs. Mass debate, but after running the numbers, I'm kinda leaning towards the .270 in this case....

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2007 at 19:12
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believe me there have been far more elk killed in the us to the 270 than the 308 ever thought off. shots with either of these to 500 is a very difficult shot. I've killed elk with a 44 mag, 454 casuall, 35 remington T/C all in hand gun out to 100 yds. that barely meet your ft/lbs, also with .338, 7mm and the best "killer" my 416.  how they react depends on so many factors, when was there last meal, weather, how spooked they are on and on.

if you want to compare paper, the 308 doesn't even come close in the flat department.

there really isn't enough difference in mass between bullets in the 130 gr to 180 gr to get excited about. comparing a 180 to a 250 .338 makes more sense,  if you want this type of comparison you should look at sectional density which is a much better gauge.

a 270 is still a 30-06 necked down and however better a 30-06 is than a 308 the 270 is the same except flatter.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2007 at 06:15
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Sectional density is what I look for in a bullet for large game. If you can get .300 or higher you will get the best penetration for a given caliber. That is, all other things being equal, i.e-bullet construction.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2007 at 09:00
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Dale, am I to understand 50 grains is inconsequential but 70 grains is not?  I would disagree completely that an increase of more than 35% in bullet mass isn't something, "to get excited about."  And I would completely agree that few should take a 500 yard shot on an trophy elk.

In the end, you gotta dance with who brung ya', and I know and like my .308 more than my .270 for anything bigger than deer.

 

Also, my .270 really likes the 130-grain projectiles and not the 150s so much, and confidence is the name of the game.

 

For me, the most accurate choices are 175-grain .308 or 130-grain .270; and for anything bigger than a hog, I use the 30-cals.

 

And again we are back to preference.  And .308 ammo is cheaper (in my parts) - and there are more choices.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2007 at 11:57
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the animal doesn't "see" any difference int 20-50 grs unless the bullet itself shows a change in sectional density by the change in mass.  an animal will see a difference (react different at least the ones I've shot) between a 200 gr 308 bullet and a .338 bullet  at 200 grs at the same velocity because of the sectional density couldn't agree more on dance with what you brung, or better yet party until they are all pretty.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2007 at 13:18
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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Well now that another subject has been thought to death, just go take your  270 and kill the darned elk.  Thousands of Oregonians have already done it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2007 at 15:50
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No,no, no!

 

Mike, you miss the point: he "needs" a new .308. If he "wants" a new .308, he can do without it for now and for this hunt.  if he "needs" a new .308 for the hunt, it is both a need and an imanent need.

 

Are you single?  Are you married to a woman?  Damn, it's like having the conversation witha  newlywed friend.

 

You don't "want" the new bigscreen TV the way she wants a new diamond, you "need" the new bigscreen in a way that never applies to jewelry.

 

Dude, go buy the .308 and put a Kahles scope on it and be ready to hunt the big boys forevermore.  Plus, the ammo will cost less, there will be more ammo options; and if you ever need dope adjustments on the fly, call me, they are all in my screwed up little grape.  I can't tell you my second son's birthday or my wife's middle name, but I can give you the dope change on a 525 yard shot with a 1/4--value 8MPH wind and a 15% incline.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2007 at 15:52
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

I can't tell you my second son's birthday or my wife's middle name, but I can give you the dope change on a 525 yard shot with a 1/4--value 8MPH wind and a 15% incline.

 

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