New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Red dot and magnifier, or reg scope and mini dot?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Red dot and magnifier, or reg scope and mini dot?

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 10:41
greywolf View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/25/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 310
What do you prefer?  I've tried using the lower-end magnified scopes (1-4x) with illuminated reticles.  Just didn't work out for me as I like not having to worry about eye relief (faster is better in my book).  But I know some people don't like the concept of using a regular red dot (Aimpoint or Eotech) with a flip-to-side 3x magnifier.  I've tried that as well and it is pretty nice in my book.  But I'd like more magnification.
 
Recently I've noticed some people using regular scopes (say a 3-9 or 4-16) with a mini red dot (Docter, etc.) or even a Aimpoint Micro mounted on a ring/rail attachment onto the scope body itself.
 
What do you prefer?  Pros/cons?
 
I would think that if you could keep the weight down, the regular scope with the mini dot would do well for all situations.
 
I'm considering this because I'm getting a Kel Tec RFB bullpup and it is going to be mostly for short to medium ranges.  I'd like something I could use close up and personal but also let its legs out to 800 yards.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 10:58
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 28753
Trijicon 4x ACOG would be an option but woudl be a far piece at 800yds, how does that keltec handle at those distances?

Edited by SVT_Tactical - February/01/2010 at 10:58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 11:08
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7698
A Kel Tec bullpup is not a precision weapon, I wouldn't put too much effort into taking an 800-yard shot.

The issue with magnifiers behind a red dot is that they magnify the target AND the dot.

I've sen a magnifying scope used with a red dot on top, that can work; however, your bullpup is not a large gun, if you start adding optics on top of optics, the balance is gonna suck. Fast.

I understand your point regarding eye releif, however, if you consistently hit the same spot on cheek weld, eye releif shouldn't be too much of a problem unless you are behind an unforgiving optic.

In your case, I'd go with a small dot in a red dot site and enjoy.  Put a flip-up magnifier on if you want, just know that it will not turn your gun into a tack-driver.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 11:15
greywolf View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/25/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Understood - and the Kel-Tec can be quite an accurate long-range gun.  It has a nice 18" barrel and is giving some very good accuracy at range.  If I can get a lighter weight variable scope with a mini-dot on the scope body that would give me some good overall diversity (long range as well as close-up) without weight being a huge issue.
 
Will have to try some different options out.
 
Magnifying a 3MOA dot at 3x doesn't concern me too much - this is going to be a Minute-of-Torso weapon.
 
As for an ACOG - dunno - pricey and I don't like having to deal with the problems of tritium replacement down the years.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 14:21
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10966
How much money are you willing to spend?

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 15:39
billyburl2 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2009
Location: Cottonwood, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 3873
You could always run out and get the new Premier Reticles 1.1-8x24

Premier Heritage 1.1-8x24 Tactical 34mm Riflescope
Stock # - PRV10001
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Illuminated Gen II CQB
  • 34mm
  • Single-Turn 0.1 MRad (17 mrad of Elevation travel)
  • Counter-Clockwise
  • Free Flip Open Lens Caps w/ Purchase

That way you get both!






$2,609.00

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 16:21
greywolf View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/25/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

How much money are you willing to spend?

ILya
 
$800 or so
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 16:27
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7698
Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

You could always run out and get the new Premier Reticles 1.1-8x24


Premier Heritage 1.1-8x24 Tactical 34mm Riflescope
Stock # - PRV10001
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Illuminated Gen II CQB
  • 34mm
  • Single-Turn 0.1 MRad (17 mrad of Elevation travel)
  • Counter-Clockwise
  • Free Flip Open Lens Caps w/ Purchase

That way you get both!






$2,609.00




First time I've seen it.  It looks odd.  But...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2010 at 13:38
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10966
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

How much money are you willing to spend?

ILya
 
$800 or so
 

I am not a big fan of red dots with swing out magnifiers.  I do not like the image through them, to be honest.

Generally speaking the best bet for you would be a 1-4x or similar scope.  The fastest one of them is probably Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x24 with a post reticle.  4x is enough to shoot at man-size targets pretty far out and at 1x it is very fast.

Another option would be a DGR scope of some sort.  It might not have an illuminated reticle, but it will have a thick non-illuminated reticle that is pretty quick.  At SHOT, I saw a prototype Weaver Ultimate Slam 1-5x24 which would fit the bill pretty well too.

If you need a little more precision further out, perhaps your best bet is one of the upcoming Viper PST 1-4x24 scopes.  They are quite fast up-close and have reticles that allow pretty decent holdover, plus knobs if you want to dial in your shot.  Personally, I like this one:

If you are inclined to go with a little more magnification (or simply want to improve low light performance with a larger objective lens), I would still suggest that you do not over do it and go with something like Burris XTR 1.5-6x40.  It has a reticle designed for 7.62x51 and good knobs.  6x is plnety of magnification for most uses:

If you are so inclined, you can add a mini red-dot to any of these, but I would probably do this in steps: first get a scope of your choice and see how it works for you.  Then, if you still want to try the mini-red dot, add one.  

Of the mini red-dots, I think Burris Fastfire is the most affordable (but still decent) one, plus it has an on/off switch.

Lastly, if you are hell bent on going with "normal scope + small red dot" approach, SWFA will have a 6x42 S.S. available in the future (some time this year I hope).  Couple that with  Burris Fastfire and you probably good to go.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2010 at 14:26
ccoker View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/13/2008
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 2032
I have tried RDS and magnifiers, 3x Acogs and numerous 1-4s on my 6.8s
I want both, up close and fast and precision for longer shots

have you tried the Accupoint 1-4?
It's on my 16" with a German #4 and green dot
the chevron is a tad faster I think at very close distances (like 10 ft) and would be better for defensive use but my use is hunting

for a pure defensive gun I would stick with a RDS
they are still faster and it's going to be hard to convince a jury you needed to shoot someone at 300 yards to defend yourself

I also have the 3-9 Accupoint on my 18" 6.8 and am going to try the 1 o'clock offset MRD
probably the Trijicon RMR

will report back what I think
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2010 at 17:24
greywolf View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/25/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Thanks, guys.  I'm giving that 1-4 Vortex a serious look.  That might fit the bill.  Until then, I'll stick with the 4.5-14x44 on my LaRue OBR with a mini dot and a SS 3-9x42 on the Kel Tec with a mini dot.  I may swap out my Comp M4s on my M4 with the Vortex 1-4x24 and see how it works out. 
 
I'm starting to see what you mean, Ilya, regarding the 3x flip-to-side magnifiers.  Seems to not only add more weight, but more cost - even a cheap magnifier is over $100, plus the LaRue mount is $150.  Hell, for that cash plus the cost of a good Aimpoint I could have the Vortex and save on some weight and complexity, plus I get ranging capability.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2010 at 17:32
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10966
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Thanks, guys.  I'm giving that 1-4 Vortex a serious look.  That might fit the bill.  Until then, I'll stick with the 4.5-14x44 on my LaRue OBR with a mini dot and a SS 3-9x42 on the Kel Tec with a mini dot.  I may swap out my Comp M4s on my M4 with the Vortex 1-4x24 and see how it works out. 
 
I'm starting to see what you mean, Ilya, regarding the 3x flip-to-side magnifiers.  Seems to not only add more weight, but more cost - even a cheap magnifier is over $100, plus the LaRue mount is $150.  Hell, for that cash plus the cost of a good Aimpoint I could have the Vortex and save on some weight and complexity, plus I get ranging capability.
 

It is not just the price.  Those magnifiers all have a somewhat undersized roof prism in them, so the image is quite soft.   You do not see nearly as well through a 3x magnifier as you would through a proper 3x scope.

When you get a chance some time compare this 3x25 IOR to any red dot with a magnifier:

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2010 at 18:21
greywolf View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/25/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 310
I can see that now - I just held up my Aimpoint-mounted M4 with flip-to-side 3x magnifier, and then tried out my 1-3x20 Weaver - big difference.
 
I guess it comes down to practicing to get a fast and consistent cheek-weld with a magnified optic, or using the right equipment for the right job when needed.  You can't have everything all the time be just right - sometimes you have to compromise some here and there depending upon your percieved need 99% of the time. 
 
Chances are most of the time most of my shooting needs would be met by a low-powered magnified optic or red dot.  So it is probably safe to say that a 1-4x red dot optic would fit the bill.  If I need to use something with NVG, then I might have to slap a NV compatible red dot on there with no eye relief since I probably wouldn't be able to get the right cheek weld and eye relief with a magnified optic.  If I am in a situation where I need more than 4x, then I've got the wrong tool and perhaps having a fast-release magnified optic on something like a LaRue mount in a pack would be the ticket.
 
 
I'm starting to come to the realization that there is no "one-size fits all" solution.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2010 at 09:27
bigo_m View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/28/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Didn't notice your post before I posted basically the same thing.  On the weapons that you saw with a 3x9 and a mini red dot, did they look like they kluged them together (too tall or too wide)?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2010 at 19:06
greywolf View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/25/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Not really - they looked pretty good - the mini dot was offset at a 45 degree angle on the scope tube
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2010 at 22:37
bigo_m View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/28/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Thanks for the response Greywolf
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2010 at 00:45
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 13877
I prefer the compact ACOG scopes and have the 1.5 and 3x and like both of them very much.  With a .223 you are at your best under 300 yds not that it wont kill out past that but it just isnt the ideal tool at long range.  Higher magnification goes with more powerful calibers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2010 at 12:58
TominCA View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: September/04/2008
Location: Campbell, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 37
I have the EoTech with the 3X - Love the EoTech and the 3X is good for target identification but Ilya is absolutely correct in my experience, that the optics are disappointly only so so - The whole package is optimal for 200 yards or less - but its really FAST! If I had to do it again I would buy the Viper PST 1-4 and save some money since in real life I need magnification more than speed. If you are getting shot back at maybe fast is more important.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2010 at 19:10
tombirdman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: September/13/2009
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 65
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

What do you prefer?  I've tried using the lower-end magnified scopes (1-4x) with illuminated reticles.  Just didn't work out for me as I like not having to worry about eye relief (faster is better in my book).  But I know some people don't like the concept of using a regular red dot (Aimpoint or Eotech) with a flip-to-side 3x magnifier.  I've tried that as well and it is pretty nice in my book.  But I'd like more magnification.
 
Recently I've noticed some people using regular scopes (say a 3-9 or 4-16) with a mini red dot (Docter, etc.) or even a Aimpoint Micro mounted on a ring/rail attachment onto the scope body itself.
 
What do you prefer?  Pros/cons?
 
I would think that if you could keep the weight down, the regular scope with the mini dot would do well for all situations.
 
I'm considering this because I'm getting a Kel Tec RFB bullpup and it is going to be mostly for short to medium ranges.  I'd like something I could use close up and personal but also let its legs out to 800 yards.
 
.
 
There are other cheaper magnifiers that go up to 7x.  I have a EO Tech with a 5x and it works fine. 
 
Mako is the company that makes up to 7x.  The glass is rather average but gets the job done.
 
Tom
 
.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2010 at 19:11
tombirdman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: September/13/2009
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 65
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

What do you prefer?  I've tried using the lower-end magnified scopes (1-4x) with illuminated reticles.  Just didn't work out for me as I like not having to worry about eye relief (faster is better in my book).  But I know some people don't like the concept of using a regular red dot (Aimpoint or Eotech) with a flip-to-side 3x magnifier.  I've tried that as well and it is pretty nice in my book.  But I'd like more magnification.
 
Recently I've noticed some people using regular scopes (say a 3-9 or 4-16) with a mini red dot (Docter, etc.) or even a Aimpoint Micro mounted on a ring/rail attachment onto the scope body itself.
 
What do you prefer?  Pros/cons?
 
I would think that if you could keep the weight down, the regular scope with the mini dot would do well for all situations.
 
I'm considering this because I'm getting a Kel Tec RFB bullpup and it is going to be mostly for short to medium ranges.  I'd like something I could use close up and personal but also let its legs out to 800 yards.
 
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Red dot and magnifier, or reg scope and mini dot?"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Zeiss Mini Red dot 3_tens Rifle Scopes 2
**OVER** Trijicon Mini Red Dot, $149.95 Chris Farris Check Here Often 0
Red Dot Magnifiers Beers78n9 Tactical Scopes 5
hunting with red dot sight/magnifier outlawskinnyd Rifle Scopes 5
SigSauer Mini Red Dot koshkin Tactical Scopes 7
Mini 14 Red dot Idea cowboy Rifle Scopes 16
Vortex Strikefire Red Dot. Dot Claus Tactical Scopes 10
Tactedge 4X32 Mini CQB TS Mil-Dot Scope mdisk Rifle Scopes 0
Truglo Red Dot scope Alden Shotgun / BlackPowder Scopes 3
Scope and red dot combined ? aarbeh Rifle Scopes 1


This page was generated in 0.421 seconds.