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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2007 at 20:17
JimTh View Drop Down
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Price range: up to $300

Purpose: Eastern whitetails and western antelope, mulies, and elk (hopefully one of the first two next year)

Design:  Right now I'm open to roof and porro prism.  I'd really like a recommendation in both formats and which one you'd pick of the two.

Waterproof? Yes.

Rubber "Armored"? Yes.

Color: black is fine by me.  camo is fine too, but don't see much point on such a small item.

 

I've been looking at the Leupold Cascades 8x42 and the Nikon Monarch ATB 8x42.  I've been reading that porro prisms have better image quality for the price, so now I'm looking at the Leupold Cascades Internal Focus which is a porro prism design.

Suggestions?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2007 at 21:00
ND2000 View Drop Down
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JimTh -

Welcome.  If you want waterproof, you'll need to go with a roof prism model.  I am not aware of any porro at that price point that is waterproof.

At the sub $300 price range, Nikon Monarch is as good as anything.  I think you are making a wise choice at 8x power also...it is very difficult to produce a high quality image at 10x for $300...lots of variation across individual models as well.

ND2000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2007 at 22:24
JimTh View Drop Down
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I thought the Cascades porro was waterproof?  Here's what Leupold says:

 

"The outstanding optical qualities of a Porro prism design with an internal focusing mechanism that features no external moving parts for added compactness, ruggedness, and waterproof integrity."

 

Can someon explain this internal focus business for me?  No external moving parts...how do I focus it?

 

"The internal focus mechanism has no exterior moving parts, making the Cascades™ more compact, more rugged, and more waterproof than ever."

 

So are they really saying that it's "waterproof-er" than it was before?  I see they say "added...waterproof integrity" and "more waterproof".

Hmm, if you go here: http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/binocul ars/cascades-series-internal-focus/cascades-8x42mm-internal- focus and mouse over the topmost hotspot, it says "Rugged, Waterproof".



Edited by JimTh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2007 at 10:31
koshkin View Drop Down
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Nikon Action Extreme porros are waterproof
Pentax PCF W II porros are waterproof.
Sightron S2 Big SKy porros are waterproof.

Both are under $300.

ANyhow, I think your best bet is to see if there are still any Fujinon CD 7x42 or 8x42 roofs around.  There were disconinued and a few places had them on closeout for ~$200.  That is an awesome deal.

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2007 at 18:29
Refrax View Drop Down
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A couple of additional binocular thoughts:

 

First of all, “waterproof” is a relative thing.  There are no official standards for “waterproofness” in binoculars.  For some companies waterproof just means they warranty it to be waterproof; if their product fogs they’ll fix or replace it.  To some degree they’re just gambling that not that many users will expose their products to all that much water and they build the cost of repair and replacement into the cost of the product.  Other companies set their own waterproof standards and you will see statements like, “submersible to a depth of x feet for x minutes.”

 

With regard to Leupold, you gotta give them some credit, ‘cause they have been market leaders in waterproof optical design.  On the other hand, while I’m a fairly big fan of their riflescopes, I’ve never been a fan of their binoculars.  To be fair, I don’t know this porro model very well, but historically Leupold binoculars have not been a particularly good value.  You can usually get a lot more for your money from Nikon or Pentax.

 

Here’s what the internal focusing thing is all about.  Historically center focus porro prism binoculars had an external focusing mechanism.  When you turned the focus wheel a “bridge” connecting the two oculars would move in and out.  This was the classic ZCF design.  The exposed external focusing mechanism was the primary reason that it has traditionally not been possible to make porros as waterproof as roof prisms.  However some manufacturers now have internal focus designs that get around that problem, and those may well be as waterproof as roof prism models – you’d have to take one for a swim to find out for sure.

 

Regarding porros being inherently sharper than roof prisms, there is some basis in fact for that, but I personally would forget about it as a factor in this price range.  There are so many other variables involved that you’re not going to see a sharpness difference between a $300 porro and a $300 phase-correction coated roof prism.  I’m not saying don’t buy a porro – just don’t base your whole decision on the idea that porros are sharper.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2007 at 18:49
mouthcaller View Drop Down
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Refrax,

Why do you discount the JIS waterproof standards pinned at the top of the binocular page?  My Pentax DCF-SPs are JIS class 6.

 

Here they are:

Grade 0

Non-protected

 

Grade 1

Protected against vertically falling water drops.

Vertically falling drops shall have no harmful effects.

 

Grade 2

Protected against vertically falling water drops when enclosure is tilted up to 15 degrees.

Vertically falling drops shall have no harmful effects when the enclosure is tilted at any angle up to 15 degrees on either side of the vertical.

 

Grade 3

Protected against spraying water.

Water sprayed at an angle up to 60 degrees on either side of vertical shall have no harmful effects.

 

Grade 4

Protected against splashing water.

Water splashed against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects.

 

Test conditions for Grade 4

The test is made using one of the two test devices described in figure 4 and in Figure 5 in accordance with the relevant product standard.

a) Conditions when using the test device as in figure 4 (oscillating tube):

The oscillating tube has spray holes over the whole 180 degrees of the semi circle. The total flow rate is adjusted as specified in Table IX and is measured with a flow meter.

The tube is caused to oscillate through an angle of almost 360 degrees, 180 degrees on either side of the vertical, the time for one complete oscillation (2x360 degrees) being about 12s.

The duration of the test is 10 min.

If not specified in the relevant product standard, the support for the enclosure under test is perforated so as to avoid acting as a baffle and the enclosure is sprayed from every direction by oscillating the tube to the limit of its travel in each direction.

 

Grade 5

Protected against water jets.

Water projected in jets against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects.

 

Test conditions for Grade 5:

The test is made by spraying the enclosure from all practicable directions with a stream of water from a standard test nozzle as shown in figure 6.

The conditions to be observed are as follows:

Internal diameter of the nozzle: 6.3mm.

Delivery rate: 12.5 l/min +/- 5 %

Water pressure: to be adjusted to achieve the specified delivery rate.

Core of the substantial stream: circle of approximately 40mm in diameter at 2.5m distance from the nozzle.

Test duration per square metre of enclosure surface area likely to be sprayed: 1 min.

Minimum test duration: 3 min.

Distance from nozzle to enclosure surface: between 2.5m and 3m.

 

 

Summary of test conditions for Grade 5:

Test means: Water jet hose nozzle Figure 6. Nozzle 6.3mm diameter, distance 2.5m to 3m.

Water flow rate: 12.5 litres per minute +/- 5%.

Duration of test: 1 min/m2 at least 3 min.

 

Grade 6

Protected against powerful water jets.

Water projected in powerful jets against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects.

 

Test conditions for Grade 6:

The test is made by spraying the enclosure from all practicable directions with a stream of water from a standard test nozzle as shown in figure 6.

The conditions to be observed are as follows:

Internal diameter of the nozzle: 12.5mm.

Delivery rate: 100 l/min +/- 5 %

Water pressure: to be adjusted to achieve the specified delivery rate.

Core of the substantial stream: circle of approximately 120mm in diameter at 2.5m distance from the nozzle.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/17/2007 at 09:31
Refrax View Drop Down
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Mouthcaller,

 

I don’t discount JIS at all.  The problem is that the standards are far from universally applied.  Not all manufacturers are Japanese and not all Japanese manufacturers use them.  I applaud those who are forthright enough to publish a number (especially if it’s an accurate number), in fact I’m pretty sure it was Pentax who first applied JIS standards to binoculars.

 

Sill any manufacturer can apply any JIS number they want to their products and can call any product waterproof.

 

Refrax

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2007 at 11:24
spf2 View Drop Down
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I have been hunting for several years. The binoculars I use gradually get better. First I was content with a pair of bushnell powerview 7x50 and quickly outgrew it.  Had a pair of bushnell trophy 8x42 and think it is a good value, despite of heavy edge distortion and 27oz weight.  Last year, I bought a pair of phase coated zen-ray summit 8x42 for $160. That one is really good.  I know it is not Zeiss that I have been drooling for years.  But for its price and quality, I am very happy with it.
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