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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2018 at 15:50
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Bought a hogue bed block stock for my 700 AAC-SD. Still has the Minox ZX5 scope. Adjusted trigger a little lighter. Went to the hunting club range. 

This time, shooting Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X 178 gr. Grouping was about 1.2 in at 100 yards.

Then check the kids Savage Axis 243, with a top of the line Nikon Buckmaster scope. Shooting Hornady American Whitetail 100 gr ammo. Grouping was about .6 in at 100 yards. 

I just do not get it. That 700 doesn't like anything I feed it. 

I seem to have gotten a bad batch of CCI primers too. So when I tried shooting the Berger Classic hunters with 4064, I couldn't get them to consistently. So.... I am done with CCI. I need to pull them down and replace primers and reload. I got around 1 in with 43 grains I think. And the crappy pillar stock. 

Maybe a bed job will help....... 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2018 at 16:03
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I'd think that with match ammo you should get better than 1" at 100yds but some guns won't do that.  Look for obvious signs of issues,  how's the crown look?  bore look damaged?  check all the standard culprits,  loose mounts/rings. Action screws torque correctly? try different weights with the ammo too. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2018 at 19:04
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Remington.  Figures.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2018 at 19:11
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That stock has mucho flex.

Have you tried factory ammo?

Do you load long or short?

1” is what I expect from factory, else disappointment is all but assured.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2018 at 19:40
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Imo sell the gun get a tikka ctr, problem solved. You have spent way to much time on that stuborn gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2018 at 11:27
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I looked at the Tikka, but didn't like the magazine deal. What I really want, and cannot find, is a laminated stock, that is traditional looking, that deals with the heavy profile barrel. 

That's why I ended up with the Hogue with the bed block. I got it on a deal. I have a Boyd's At One also, but just dont' know about it yet. It isn't as easy on the shoulder as the hogue, and they want almost as much in shipping to send me a recoil pad as the paid itself costs. 

I may rebarrel or send off for accurizing after deer season is over. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2018 at 11:32
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Oh and yes, I have tried alot of different factory ammo. In the original stock. It would string it. 

Some handloads would show promise and then I would get a flier. The Berger reloads were right around an inch. It liked Nosler BT's too, in 168. 

I shot some Federal Match ammo, and it was inchish or so. Nothing to write home about. 

I really like the gun, I can shoot it all day off the bench without getting sore. It's not that heavy consindering the barrel profile. The trigger isn't my favorite, but its not terrible now that I adjusted it a little lighter. 

So this was the first outing with the Bed Block Hogue instead of the pillar bed one. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2018 at 12:14
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First things first... are you certain the Minox scope holds zero? Have you used it on another rifle with known precision before? If not, I would mount a scope that has proven to maintain zero currently on another rifle that shoots well and see if your groups tighten up as a result. 

Changing to different stocks won't do a single thing for you in improving group sizes, provided a given stock isn't so ergonomically bad that it interferes with your shooting or bedding is stressing the action or barrel, causing inconsistencies. If you have sound bedding, you're good to go regardless of stock design.

If you're certain the scope or bedding isn't the culprit, and all screws are tight on action and scope mounts, check the following:

- make sure your mag box is assembled correctly into the recess under the receiver and that it isn't binding against the receiver and stock.

- make sure your forward-most mount screw isn't binding against your barrel thread.

- clean your barrel thoroughly to ensure you don't have copper fouling.

- check to make sure both locking lugs are making even contact in the lug abutments of the action. You can check this by marking the rear of the bolt locking lugs with ink or similar, work the bolt a few times, and see if ink gets rubbed off both lugs to the same degree. 

1.2" groups at 100 yards isn't too bad for a factory rifle, by the way. If you shoot a lot of factory rifles, you soon realize that either everyone but you has been exceedingly lucky in factory rifle roulette or a high % of people talking about factory rifle precision on the internet is lying.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2018 at 23:55
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I agree with everything but cleaning the barrel of copper fouling. There is only 2 options here to get consistent shots. 1. clean the barrel of all copper and do it after every shot. 2. Allow the barrel to reach copper equilibrium by not removing copper from the barrel.

Every shot deposits copper into the barrel. The copper continues to fill in any imperfections until they no longer exist an now you are at copper equilibrium. From there on, you are pushing out copper as new copper is being laid with each shot. This coating of copper provides a consistent barrel allowing repeat shots under the same conditions.

If you remove the copper from the barrel, then your barrel changes every shot. Every shot will follow a slightly different path through the barrel until you reach copper equilibrium again.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 00:40
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I don’t completely agree with that. I had a factory 700 vs barrel in .308. It would take 4 rounds to settle down after a complete copper removal. Then it was a 1/2 moa gun for 30 to 35 rounds then it would start to open up. The longer i went the worse it got. I would clean copper and then repeat the process. I put over 4000 rounds down that barrel and it stayed pretty consistant to that.

Then i bought a hand lapped lilja barrel. I followed dan’s break in procedure and with that barrel shot 1 thru 400 was all perfect. It didn’t appear to copper fowl at all. So i would just clean it every 300ish rounds as it made me feel good.

Another new .308 with a Obermyer barrel. Same thing, it doesn’t copper foul.

Tikka 6.5 creed ctr. It would start to degrade accuracy around 80 rounds. Clean the copper out 2 shots to settle down and it was good for 80 rounds. Just put a Hardy carbon fiber barrel on it. During moderate break in it copper fouled a tiny hit. But after 15 rounds it was gone. Shot 100 rounds with no cleaning and then cleaned, no fouling seen on the patches.

No two barrels will be the same. But most factory barrels are going to copper foul worse. A good hand lapped custom barrel that has been chambered by a good smith and machine in my experience fould little to none.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 00:48
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How about a barrett fieldcraft. They are $1700ish. They will be near perfect right out of the gate. All the time and money you have spent on that one is probably getting close to the field craft.

On the ctr magazine system. I freaking love it. Its a double stack 10 round mag so its half the length of the AI style mags. The mag release is better than most the after market bottom metals out there. IMO it is an excellent system.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 03:46
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A buddy of mine had a Hogue stock on his heavy barrelled .308 700. Would not shoot. Changed stocks, different rifle
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 09:52
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Originally posted by Garzaci Garzaci wrote:

I agree with everything but cleaning the barrel of copper fouling. There is only 2 options here to get consistent shots. 1. clean the barrel of all copper and do it after every shot. 2. Allow the barrel to reach copper equilibrium by not removing copper from the barrel.

Every shot deposits copper into the barrel. The copper continues to fill in any imperfections until they no longer exist an now you are at copper equilibrium. From there on, you are pushing out copper as new copper is being laid with each shot. This coating of copper provides a consistent barrel allowing repeat shots under the same conditions.

If you remove the copper from the barrel, then your barrel changes every shot. Every shot will follow a slightly different path through the barrel until you reach copper equilibrium again.

I think you're partially correct. Yes, some copper fouling isn't necessarily a bad thing, and reaching a sort of "fouling equilibrium" does help with consistent accuracy. However, not all barrels receive fouling to the same degree/rate, not all fouling is from copper (part of it is powder fouling), and many barrels with inconsistent tool marks in the bore get progressively worse to the point that eventually, precision suffers and the fouling must be removed.

With a good, smooth barrel having a uniform, lapped bore finish as is found in custom barrels, you can reach this equilibrium where copper seemingly doesn't continue to build past a certain point. For the most part, I don't clean my custom barrels very often, and I might go a couple 100 shots between cleanings with no noticeable effects on achievable average group sizes. I've had quite a few custom barrels that don't pick up much fouling, and clean patches come out of the barrel after only a couple solvent passes. On a rough factory barrel with inconsistent tool marks, especially if these tool marks are perpendicular to the bore center line, you can have excessive copper buildup that only gets worse and hinders precision. I've seen many occasions where a factory rifle starts shooting like crap and a thorough cleaning with a good solvent returns it to laying down respectable groups again.

I always fire a few fouling shots after cleaning before I test a rifle's grouping ability, regardless of whether it has a custom barrel or mass-produced non-lapped factory OEM barrel. In my experience, it only takes a couple "fouler" shots before a good barrel reaches its ideal consistency again, so no big deal.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 10:06
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Originally posted by Scrumbag Scrumbag wrote:

A buddy of mine had a Hogue stock on his heavy barrelled .308 700. Would not shoot. Changed stocks, different rifle

That was likely due to either unsound bedding stressing the action or the forend flexing and applying inconsistent pressure on the barrel. If 2 different stocks are both equally well-bedded to create a sound, stress-free foundation for the barreled action, then the stock has no influence on the rifle's ability to shoot, as long as the stock design isn't an impediment to the shooter's ability to have consistent shot to shot form.

That being said, I've never been a fan of Hogue rifle stocks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 11:00
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Dyna Bore Coat can solve lots of fouling issues.  I use it in every barrel I have, custom or not.   Bedding a rifle is never a bad idea.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 11:38
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The Minox scope is a new one, a warranty replacement for my ZA5. This one is a 30mm model in talley rings. I took it to a local gun store to have it properly mounted. Best I can tell when I have been shooting it, the POI moves exactly where I want it by counting the clicks when I adjust it, so I feel pretty comfortable the scope is good. Its a ZX5. Shipped from Germany to me. 

I did get rid of the crappy hogue stock. It did flex. I use an Allen Bag to shoot the gun off a rest, so it is maybe 12 inches long, so it supports that much of the stock. The gun sits down in it. 

I did lap the lugs before I sent the gun to Remington. What I want to do is bed the recoil lug. I feel good about the Hogue stock with the aluminum bedding block. I have another 700 with same stock, and its a shooter. Of course it shot good with the factory synthetic stock. 

Remington said they chamfered my barrel. I will try cleaning it and see what happens. I know I cleaned it before I sent it to them. 

One thing i did notice when I put rifle in the new stock is the rubber at the end contacted the barrel. I sanded it to make clearance, I am going to double check that again. 

Everything is tight. I tighten front action screw snug and then to the same with the back, and then tighten front, then back. I check the bolt for free movement. 

What I have read is the gun has "tactical rifling" which is probably nothing different than regular, but it should be better with heavier bullet weights. It shot 150 Federal Premium partitions at around an inch at 100. The Berger reloads that I could get to shoot shot about the same. 

I think it shot BT's ok too. I can't remember, I need to see if I can find the old targets, I try to keep them all for reference. 

It just frustrates me that I have basically a cheap savage that I had 180 dollars in, added a 100 dollar scope, rifleman rings and a 1 piece weaver base, shooting just regular hunting ammo, and its sub moa with the crappy trigger. 

The thing I don't  like about the savage is it doesn't eject shells that great. Otherwise I think I would be inclined to buy one of those, cut a couple inches off the barrel, drop it in a better stock, add a trigger and go. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2018 at 13:01
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I have asked this before on another one of your posts but i don’t recall you commenting on it. How are you cleaning? What are you cleaning with? You need a carbon fouling remover and an ammonia based copper remover. Two seperate steps in mosy cases. I can almost guarantee a factory remington barrel is going to copper foul like crazy and if you don’t clean all that crap out its not going to shoot really well

Then 1.2 moa as has been said isnt that bad for a cheap factory rifle. Just because it says tactical don’t put to much head that it means anything except marketing.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 08:59
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I got some copper solvent from the local gun store, and it does a very good job of getting the copper out. I forget what it is called. I went in and asked specifically for something to get rid of copper. I think it is a military grade. 

So I run a wet patch down the barrel and then will go down with a brush, and then back with more patches until I don't see blue. Usually the powder residue is brown or black. 

I had one of my rifles I cleaned with it, where you could see visible copper streaking in the barrel, I tihnk it was my older 700 in 270, that shot sub MOA as it was, and it cleaned that right out. 

I uased to load my reloads with a powder thrower. i'd adjust it to get the charge I wanted, and then load right? Well I even have gotten down to weighing each load on a digital scale. I use the same brass and primer for each. And that hasn't tightened up anything. 

It is so weird. I can get a certain set up to shoot some shots really very well, and then there is always a flier. 

I went back and looked at my target for the precision hunter ammo. The first 3 shots were really very close. Then when I adjusted the windage to move it to center, I got 1.2 MOA. 

I don't have any reason to suspect the scope, it has shot inconsistently with 2 different scopes. 

I would say it was just me, except I can get sub MOA out of my older 270, I got it from the kids savage, I have gotten it with my Ruger M77 with a 16.5 barrel. The latter two with stock trigger pulls. 

I use the same bag set up every time. 

I did load up some fresh Berger 168 classic hunters with IMR 4064, in the charge weight that the Federal Premium 168 SMK load is. Winchester primers, all PMC brass. 

I decapped and resized them, and then polish before I loaded. I have noticed if I don't polish them sometimes I get some case lube inside the case, which means it doesn't go bang. That is the source of my misfires it seems. So I did more research on that. 

I personally think the action needs accurizing. I am going to see if the gun shop across the street from me can do that. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 14:59
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No to the Tikka, huh? I would imagine after using it a bunch it wouldn't matter what it was. 

Fouling lays up in layers. You need to alternate copper and carbon solvents to strip a bore clean.

Inconsistent grouping can be a symptom of uneven bedding, loose parts or a flexible stock. These are cheap rifle issues. Remingtons are the original cheap rifle. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 15:23
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Beware of using bronze cleaning brushes with copper killer slovents. They will give u a false reading of copper. You never get it out.

If i scrub with a brush its a synthetic brush. I typically just mop the bore really good with a bore mop and let a soak in for a few then push patches through until they are dry then rewet with mop and repeat until copper is done.

The comment above about layers is hood as that happens too. Always remember more bore have been ruined by cleaning than by shooting. So just clean smart and becareful and it should help
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 15:27
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Having the action accuruzed isnt going to fix a crappy barrel. If u are going to start spending money on things like that then just teplace the barrel. 90% of the accuracy will be the barrel. The rest will be all the little things that may or may not even matter based upon your shooting and loading skills.

You could have someone like mcgowen put a new barrel on your gun for $500 or less and it would likely be a tack driver.

Just something to consider.
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More i think about this the more i think you should start from scratch. Buy some federal gold medal match 168 grain. This is known good ammo. Clean you barrel so all copper and carbon is gone. Torque your stock, mounts and rings properly. Shoot 4 or 5 fowler shots. Adjust scope just so you are on target. Then shoot multiple 5 shot groups. But do it in groupls of 5. So have 5 points of aim on your target. Shoot once at each target. Let barrel cool then ahoot 5 more at each poi and so on til you shoot 25 rounds.

Don’t adjust anything during this test. Make sure you call all your shots, make sure you know exaclty where your crosshairs was when the trigger breaks. Make sure you are holdinf the rifle the same each time, cheek weld is the same, grip is the same, eye placement the same, magnification the same, rest is the same, trigger pull is the same, etc etc. Once you get a good base line then 1 thing at a time start to make changes and go from there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 hours 46 minutes ago at 07:14
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The solvent I got was G96 and it says its military grade and removes lead, copper and powder residue. I have some Hoppe's solvent too. 

I cleaned it again last night. With both. I have a nylon brush, so I kept running it and then patches down until it was clean. 

I have some of that Federal Ammo, I shot it before, it shot it ok. Remington said they got .8 inch with their match ammo when the test fired it after they did some work on it. They redid the crown and chamfered the barrel. I added a short muzzle brake to protect the crown. 

I think the Hogue stock with the full aluminum bed block is solid. I have another 700 in one, and it shoots really good. Probably .5 moa. That is what is so aggravating with this one. I was expecting similar results. What I like about it is the gun is easy to shoot. I can shoot a lot of rounds and not get sore. 

I use an Allen filled bench shooters  bag. So if i get a good or a bad group, the bag never changes. 

I think bedding the recoil lug would be good. But if I changed out the barrel, then maybe I need to hold off on that. 

I don't like the trigger all that much, but lightening the pull makes it better. 


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1 1/4” groups in a factory Remington with factory ammo aren’t bad. To turn it into a sub moa rifle may cost you a LOT. Couple of cheap and easy things to check. Where are you putting your sandbag? Don’t put it under the fore end for obvious reasons. I use two bags. One under the action just in front of the trigger guard and one is one somewhere in the rear part of the buttstock so it doesn’t effect my position and therefore my cheek weld.

Since you reload, you should be able to find something that rifle likes. Start with good brass. What you said about using a digital scale bothers me a little. I use a mechanical scale and I weigh every powder charge every time for every rifle. Handguns, I weigh every 5th. Start with a minimum load and build 5 “foulers” Shoot these first. Lots of factory barrels shoot better when they aren’t cold and clean. Build your other loads in groups of five each from minimum to maximum charge weights skipping 3/10 of a grain in between each. Don’t fire them in order. Set up one target for each load and shoot them randomly at the corresponding target. That should give you a starting point. Seating depth makes a big difference. Someone else mentioned that but I don’t think you responded. Soot the bullet and find your depth. You can google it. .020 jump is a good starting point. Case lube...don’t reload anything with case lube still on the brass, tumble it.
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I had a Rem700 Varminter. I could only get it up to 1 inch grouping...no matter what.
I then had the barrel air gauged. The internal hole diameter of the barrel was oversized and also inconsistantly sized. In other words it was bigger and smaller along the barrel. I am talking about the long hole where the bullet passes in the middle of the barrel. It was a 308 caliber.
Remington refunded me for the barrel and I fitted a custom barrel. It was a whole new ballgame with a 1/4 grouping out the block.
The barrel is just about everything in accuracy. (in my humble opinion.) 
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