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? re: implications of LEO shooting for CC

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2010 at 18:45
lucznik View Drop Down
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Watch this video...

http://www.spuler.us/gunsandammo/?p=369

Then read this synopsis...

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_13b074ce-47cb-11df-a0a4-001cc4c002e0.html?oCampaign=hottopics


Now,

This particular video/event (along with some others I have seen, read about, etc.) has caused me to do some reevaluation of my personal choices for concealed carry. I've not made any decisions yet, but rather have had some competing thoughts and questions come up - some of which are most definitely diametrically opposed to one another. Thought I'd throw some of these thoughts out and see what input y'all might be able to offer. Very importantly however, NONE of what I post here is intended to attack or impugn the character of the officer involved or any other LEO. It's just random thoughts...

1. I have always been a died-in-the-wool revolver guy and have always accepted the premises that  A) shot placement is paramount and that  B) magazine capacity is highly overrated. However, this officer's 14 rounds were "down range" and his gun was empty awfully fast. My 7-round revolver would have been empty in half the time, if not less.

2. This being a trained officer, it is interesting that he unconsciously (he stated that he only thought he had fired 6-8 times) emptied all 14 shots from his Glock 22 at a very large vehicle (a Lincoln Navigator) that, during the majority of the shooting, was mere feet away, yet only 6 (43%) of those 14 rounds even hit the vehicle. Now, although I'm a pretty good shot with a handgun (I killed an antelope at 75 yards last year with my 4" 686+ Mountain Gun using iron sights), I'm not a trained combat marksmen so; just how well can I reasonably think I would do in similar circumstances? Probably not nearly as well. I know we all like to think we are "tactically proficient" but, cold hard reality is likely something far different. And he wasn't exactly doing the old "spray and pray" either. He at least seemed in reasonable control of his weapon. Stress, fear, and adrenaline can apparently be a real b#*$!

3. Of the six .40S&W rounds that hit the vehicle, only ONE (17% of those that hit the car and 7% of the total fired) penetrated far enough to strike the occupant. Luckily it killed him but, that can't exactly be attributed to good marksmanship. I have a friend who is a Deputy Sheriff who really dislikes the .40S&W because he claims they don't penetrate well. He regularly bemoans that he would rather carry even a 9mm as penetration would be better. Although not definitive (it's only a single anecdotal account), could this shooting event be illustrative of that very problem? I had kind of planned on getting a .40S&W thinking it would offer performance that was a bit of the "best of both worlds" as compared to the benefits associated with both the 9mm and the .45 ACP. Do I now need to rethink the problem again?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2010 at 20:38
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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a shot well placed yes, but----- in time. -----speed,power,accuracy. there are standards for presentation of the weapon to the target, which include all three of these factors. They are based in the size of the target, which may be a function of the distance. In other words the time it takes to hit a 4x6 head shot at 6 yds, is the same as hitting a 8x12 at 2x the distance. This is different for each shooter, and what makes up the class break down in IPSC type shooting. When a shooter goes past his/her "clock" misses are the result, and the training is directed at not going past your limits for the shot involved. However the officer did regardless of his training>.
The power of the weapon determines how fast speed and accuracy can be applied, and is standardized by the momentum of a 230 gr. Hard Ball 45 acp since it is a proven stopper. Thus a 9mm as an example would have a power factor of roughly 125 and a 44 mag about 250. Anyone using anything such as a 380 or smaller are under a delusion.  civilian carry and self defence shooting has nothing to do with what cops do, in either practice routine, type of gun, the carry, or mental outlook. Leo will almost always use a defensive tactical weapon as a strategic offensive weapon, you can count on it. A civilian carrys for stopping power, leo carries for behavior modification. Civilians do not care (mostly the lack = collateral damage) about barrier penetration as leo. As a civilian shooting at a retreating auto your defense in court would be pretty shaky. The 40 will work great, when considering leo input into your self defense needs, place fingers in both ears and sing La-La-La-La-- until the sound goes away.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2010 at 21:01
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
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BOTH OR ANY...642 AND OR P2000SK, AND OR P239 AND OR P-06 AND OR USP, AND OR SEECAMP(LAWN MOWING...IF SOMEONE IS GOING TO TAKE ME I HOPE IT IS WHEN I AM MOWING THE LAWN), AND OR PM40 AND OR P-07 AND OR BDA AND OR 1911 even a worked over pa-63( like it better than walther due to firing pin safety)... .38 .380ACP, 9X18, 9X21, .40 OR .45...  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2010 at 10:14
supertool73 View Drop Down
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I have always been taught that in a stressful situation like that you will only be about half as good as your worst day in training. 

Some of the classes I have taken they teach you to just shoot two to the chest and if they do not go down transition to the head.  But then I took a couple more advanced classes where the instructor teaches mil and law enforcement and just teaches a few civilian classes each year.  He taught us to "hammer" them to the ground, just keep shooting them til they go down. 

Then doing actual force of force training that seems to be the way it went, no one just fired one or two shots, it is just bang bang bang bang bang. 

But that is still all training, add into real stress like that cop must have felt or really any individual might feel when they are suddenly being attacked I have a feeling we would all fire as much as possible.  I have heard stories of cops using revolvers and they will shoot their 6 rounds and just continue pulling the trigger over and over after they are empty not even realizing it.  So I think limiting yourself to a revolver could cost you.

Hunting is entirely different, I have never not known the exact second I was out of ammo.  But if you are scared to death for your life I highly doubt that is going to be one of the things you are thinking about.  We train and hope that will be the case, but until you have been through those situations it will be pretty hard to prepare for.  It is either going to be fight, flight, or submit.  And hopefully it is fight and flight as you are moving to cover.  I think that cop did great, as soon as he realized what happened he moved to a safe place and started fighting.  If he just would have submitted and stood there that second shot he would have been dead.


Edited by supertool73 - May/07/2010 at 10:16
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2010 at 10:33
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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You will not rise to the occasion, but will fall to the level of your training. Hammering the target probably is a good leo approach but not for an individual, as you will lack back up and probably a reload for a second or third target. The level of practice required to be good with a bunch of handguns is beyond most peoples reach (let see which gun did I bring today).  Even a revolver takes 2-3 times as much as a good auto which takes 10x as much as a rifle. A sustained gunfight from any distance with a handgun is what leo gets paid to do, not civilians, why engage? You gonna fire a round down range somewhere in the vicinity just to keep their heads down? A mod 38 lightwt. with only 5 shots is an outstanding civilian carry gun--- if thats what you practice with.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2010 at 11:19
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Seems like it's often the case that 50-100% more shots are fired than the officer(s) thought. They must really end up in a zone while shooting. I used to have a 40 S&W and recovered a lot of barely damaged slugs after shooting through 2" dia. sticks about 10 yards away. I can't really compare it to anything else because the other three types of handgun I've fired (9mm, .45 ACP, and .357 mag) were either at paper targets or clays set up against a dirt backstop.

I'm not an experienced handgun shot or collector, but of the ones I've fired, I actually liked the Taurus Model 66 the best. But if I owned one again it would likely be a magazine-fed gun. Even though it probably makes more sense to have a revolver.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2010 at 18:09
Terry Lamb View Drop Down
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My final carry gun is the S&W 642 Lightweight in .38 spl. I talked with many officers, with the objective being concealed carry as opposed to duty sidearm. Though malfunctions are exceedingly rare these days with semi-autos, they can occur, or a distressing case of an empty chamber can temporarily flummox a civilian in a moment of incredible stress.
 
Final consensus was that the revolver is foolproof. The 642 is light, small, has no external hammer to snag, and falling on an empty chamber is cured by immediately pulling that trigger again, not having to pull a slide to cycle in a round after a misfire or an empty.
 
I previously carried an AMT back-up, .380 ACP. Perhaps a bit light in power, and even more compact than the 642, but in the end, both my wife and I carried the 642 with confidence.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2010 at 20:11
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I've only tagged one out of three guys that I shot at in 31 yrs  LE, and I have been top shooter in every department I have worked for. Under that type of stress you revert to your training and fine motor skills dont work well.   I carry the same type ammo off duty as on duty.  On duty Glock 22 off duty Glock 35  or 23  all are same caliber just a difference in size.  Carrying a gun is a commitment to de-escalation and avoidance of conflict and guns and alcolol dont mix pick one - only.  If I was going to select a caliber I like 45acp however the 10 mm is also quite suitable.   I have carried different guns with different departments and I certainly never felt under gunned with a 1911  45acp,     I prefer a double action pistol like the Sig P220 or a Springfield Armory  or H&K or a Glock. 45acp just has a long history or working effectively. The Glock 30 will use the longer Glock 21 mags so it would be a good choice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2010 at 19:53
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Terry Lamb Terry Lamb wrote:

My final carry gun is the S&W 642 Lightweight in .38 spl. I talked with many officers, with the objective being concealed carry as opposed to duty sidearm. Though malfunctions are exceedingly rare these days with semi-autos, they can occur, or a distressing case of an empty chamber can temporarily flummox a civilian in a moment of incredible stress.
 
Final consensus was that the revolver is foolproof. The 642 is light, small, has no external hammer to snag, and falling on an empty chamber is cured by immediately pulling that trigger again, not having to pull a slide to cycle in a round after a misfire or an empty.
 
I previously carried an AMT back-up, .380 ACP. Perhaps a bit light in power, and even more compact than the 642, but in the end, both my wife and I carried the 642 with confidence.
Someone is not La-la-laing-- auto vs. revolver reliablilty --Countless magazine articles have addressed this issue and 30 years of IPSC shooting have simply shown revolvers are not more reliable, in fact if shot over the same round count revolver failure rate is higher. In any case the error is operator not weapon involved. saying an less trained operator will have less  errors with a revolver than an auto, just restates that its operator error. Having a second round to shoot by simply pulling the trigger does not mean the operator will hit the target, again a training issue.
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