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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 18:27
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
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how important, or how many of you use rangefinders with inclometers or bushnells with arc feature?

its one of those things where i wonder if im even ever gonna use it, i hunt yotes, turkey (which i wouldnt use it for) and next season black bear...but dont want to think to myself "oh sh*t" if i ever need it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 18:54
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Inside of 300 yds for most chambering's I would say not really needed for hunting. If you stretch out further than that, I would say get it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 18:56
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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For shots out to 400 yds, and less than 20 deg. I don't worry about it, but living in S.D. it's pretty flat out here. Might depend on your hunting conditions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 19:31
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I disagree.  Of course, what I am about to say should be caveated with bullet type, velocity, etc. however, as a general rule at 200 yards and a 20deg angle (up or down), you will see an elevation difference of almost 2 inches high, at 400 yards, almost 4 inches high.  In either case, if you are using a 1 MOA rifle and you are capable of shooting it to its capacity, you could certainly create a kill zone miss where you would merely wound an animal or miss completely.  It DOES matter...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 19:56
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Guess I could have mentioned that with my load, the difference between flat, and 20 degrees at 400 yards is only 1/2 MOA. It's never caused me to miss yet. You should probably check out how much difference a little angle makes for your particular load. I've found my load is fast, and flat enough not to worry about it out on the plains. When I hunt the Black Hills, on the other side of the state though, it certainly becomes a factor.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 20:49
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
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im in the woods and fields no more than 200 yards at most.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 21:31
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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I guess it will depend on what caliber/load you are shooting. Inside 200 yards, I don't bother with a rangefinder. My load shoots within 1 1/2" from 25 yards to 200, But if you are shooting a big, slow "brush gun" caliber that is not "flat shooting", it may not hurt to have it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 22:00
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i just checked out winchesters ballistic calculator program...for the 30-06 and 243 it might pay to have one....its really just  a crap shoot. 

if i sight in at 50 yards im good up to 200 yards with no real drop for the .223, 243, 22-250. so im set on that...for the 30-06 its a diff story but not all that much.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2010 at 23:02
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Most hunters are satisfied with "somewhere near" 1MOA accuracy... that can produce a pretty big variation.  1MOA at 200 yards is 2 inches.  Since most hunters don't get near that kind of accuracy, let's be conservative and give them 1.5MOA.  OK, 3 inch POE at 200 yards.  Now, take into account that many, if not most, hunters don't really know where the "kill zone" on a game animal is, let's say another 1.5 inches of error probable, conservatively.  We are now at something near 5 inches radius which gives us a 10 inch CEP.  Now take into account the fact that few hunters understand or take into account error introduced as a result of angle of fire.  We have exceeded the "kill zone" on most game animals by quite a bit.  Means, at worst, a wounded animal, moderately (I'm not concerned with "failures") a complete miss, but if a kill is made, a lucky event.  
Take for instance.... there is a group of hunters who hunt below my house.  A few days ago I heard a series of rapid fire shots, then a couple minutes later a single shot in the same general area.  Near the end of the day I tracked the hunters down to discover that the blasting was all from one hunter sitting in a tree on a pretty steep slope.  He hit the deer, bad hit, first shot, missed the second, hit again on the third.   The deer continued to run, but one of the hunter's "buddies" was able to take a shot on fairly level ground a couple hundred yards away and put the deer down.  Both were using 300WinMag.  To them, this was a fairly normal occurance, a fairly normal hunt.  To me it is an atrocity. Had the 1st trigger puller been aware of angle induced error, even if he wasn't a very good shot, he could possibly have avoided causing unwarranted suffering on a game animal whose only crime was to walk into "range" of a person hunting in an illegal manner... he was hunting over bait (corn) which is illegal in Alabama.  A whole lot of bad things happened, but to these guys it was just another good day in the woods. Trigger is not wrong, for himself, because he is a knowledgeable hunter and an accomplished shooter.  Many who read here are not.  They, therefore, need the benefit of ALL the information available so they do not make the mistakes of my "neighbors"....  I find myself more and more on the side of the animals and less and less on the side of the so called "hunters" because I see less and less time spent on learning and understanding the art and science of hunting and more and more animals being caused to suffer because of ignorant "sportsmen".   To me, hunting is not and never has been a sport.  It is a part of life, a part of the "circle of life".  As time has progressed, the hunt has become more important than the taking of game.  If I get an animal in my sights, it's dead if I "pull the trigger".  That holds no magic for me, has not for a very long time.  Getting there, understanding all the variables, KNOWING beyond any doubt I CAN make the kill is more important.  Letting the object of the hunt walk is easy.  The art and science of killing is, or at least should be, demanding.  Game animals are not "targets".   Targets deserve and get no respect.  Far too many have lost the respect for hunting... deer, elk, coyotes, etc have become just "things" to launch a bullet at.  
Trigger knows his "art", knows the science of what he does.  We should demand that we all have that knowledge.  When we let the liberals convince us, let them change the language, such that hunting becomes just a sport, we will have lost IT and we will have lost ourselves.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2010 at 01:15
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
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umh....ok

if your implying that only people who understand ballistics should hunt then its more than likely gonna fall on deaf ears...you know what ballistics is to most hunters? "the bullets gonna rainbow, so aim at his balls"...i am very knowledgeable on .223 & 45-70...somewhat on 243 & 30-06. im more of a slow and heavy bullet kinda guy, but i for some reason the game i hunt is more geared for faster lighter bullets. 

if your saying that most hunters dont know where the killzone is on the game they hunt i have to disagree. we just dont get all encyclopedia of facts about it. dont ask me how many inches a .223 will drop at 200 yards, ill have to get a ballistic calculator or book to tell you that. but if im in the field, and i see a yote, and im 200 yards out, im gonna tell you to aim about 3/4" high up from the belly broadside above the front shoulder. 

their is no science to hunting. saying there is an art to hunting is a nice way of saying you have killer instinct. obviously those hunters you were describing didnt have it. hunting has never been about ballistics...you found the right bullet for your game and the right weight...that was it. im more intersted in being able to point out different species of animals in the woods and the experience of seeing them exist over how much i know about ballistic co-effieceny...im a carpenter by trade, i consider people who spew out numbers to be like most architects...they give every reason in the book why something has to be built a certain way or why this has to go there until they see "oh sh*t in the real world it doesnt work out...the numbers add up the data is there, the mechanical engineer checked it too but for some reason it just wont work"...thats hunting...spend more time learning your game, more time learning your surroundings, more time working on patience, more time on trying to understand the animal...deer may run when they hear a shot but give it a second and they will stop and turn around...all the practice at the range and all the reading of ballistic manuals isnt worth sh*t unless you reload...

and maybe the one hunter who missed 3x was a bad shot, but his buddy got the deer down in one shot, taking it out of misery...i have mixed feelings on poaching...some people who live in the sticks are so poor that they need the food to survive..squirrel and deer. if they are so poor they need to kill their food im sure they are too poor to afford game tags...

but you are right hunting isnt a sport...its a way of life. and to me, very few things beat being outside in the woods on a cold snowy day and taking out yotes...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2010 at 10:33
outlawskinnyd View Drop Down
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i understand where your coming from but  also thought of this before i fell alseep i just didnt get a chance to post...

i was watching predator madness 3 and their was a hunting scene in the snow where a guy was getting ready to hunt deer, but to make sure his rifle was sighted in he took out a yote...

some might say thats wrong and this and that...its how it is. i am fine with it. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2010 at 22:09
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We will always disagree, I guess, on many of your points. 

If you love hunting, look at it as a way of life, then the tools of hunting should be known to you, at least as well as any tool you may use...  If you don't know the ballistics, of whatever weapon you use, bow, rifle, shotgun, pistol, then you WILL miss, more often than you should.  I truthfully say I have NEVER had a deer run out of visual range, have never lost an animal I shot.  I have an acquaintance that does often... he misses several times a year.  The unfortunate part is he also wounds several deer a year that he never finds.  He can't understand why I don't invite him to hunt on my property.  You might not understand, either...  Hard to say...
Because I DO know the ballistics of my rifles, I can take shots others would not and be successful.  I can also pass on shots that others may "try" because the percentages are not good. 
I don't take shots at animals to "see if my gun is working properly".  I don't have fun killing animals.  If there is not a good reason, I don't do it.  If coyotes are infringing on my property, I will take them out.  If they are killing farm animals and pets in the area, I will decrease the population.  If they stay away, I'm not going to go after them... I have no need.  In areas where they are a hazard to farm animals, etc, certainly population control is justified.  Indiscriminate killing makes no sense to me.  I have no use for it. 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2010 at 10:14
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Shoot a 'yote, alert a goat...as in antelope or anything else you're hunting. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2010 at 10:53
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My next ranger finder will have it.  Trigger is very good at what he does, I am not at his level.  I was shooting on the one steep hill in SD this fall and did shoot over the top because of the steep down angle.  Ranged it, but angle was steep and I did not adjust.  It was a clean miss and the animal never moved, just looked around.  Corrected my end and next one went true.  Like KB said, targets are targets, but game deserves to be killed cleanly.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2010 at 15:17
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you know what it is kickboxer, its different for everyone. i dont hunt steep terrain. i am a predator hunter, thats flat land hunting or woods hunting for me. every now and then i get some hills, nothing i cant compensate for. with the 243, 22-250 & 223 im good with it. with other calibers my ballistics are a little off because i dont use them.

and if i dont know i ask...thats it. i am going black bear hunting and where im going in september is the adirondack moutains. i know about the .45-70 but i dont know the mathmatical formula to say "ok at 150 yards and 30 degrees up i have to aim like its 175 yards" (pretend thats the case). i also dont know how much of an important feature it is...im guessing it is important.

i hunt with bdc, how did i learn to adjust...i set up a coyote target. and just shot the sh*t out of it at different ranges all aiming at the same spot...this was some years ago though. i took a brief look at a book on ballistics and forgot most of it by the time i got to my friends to do this. its just how i learn. i dont know how many inches a bullet drops off the top of my head, but i can sure as hell tell you where to aim to hit a yote if your 100 yards out 200 yards out, and all will hit the same spot.

as long as your safe, aware and know your limits as a hunter & shooter and have a basic but solid understanding of how your bullet works, imho your good to go. its when you start saying "hey now i wonder what happens if i..." or "hey watch this..." that things start to go bad.

as far as that guy doing that to a yote, i dont have an opinion one way or another. i wouldnt do that. just dont seem right. but theres also some sh*t i wouldnt do at work that a lot of old timers do and in the end it works..
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/27/2010 at 17:23
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osd, I hope you had a great Christmas... 
certainly if you don't do any large angle up/down shooting, you won't need a rangefinder with angle range correction.  It's just a tool that helps when/if you DO have a high angle shot.   The angle makes a difference quicker than one would think... It's why there is  a "bow" mode on most angle correcting rangefinders.  I don't advocate spending money needlessly on tech gear, but cost differential is not that much, then it is there if you need it.  If you don't have it, you have to remember all those formulae, trig functions, etc.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2011 at 19:44
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