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Are they worth it?

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
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Topic: Are they worth it?
Posted By: caincutter
Subject: Are they worth it?
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 09:10
Morning all-
 
I have a question that's probably been answered and discussed ad nauseum, but can't seem to find it specifically in my search.  If so, please forgive and help out if you will. 
 
My question is, are the higher end scopes really worth the price of admission?  The reason I ask is I had a hunting situation the other day that left me wondering.  I hunt in south MS and in primarily close quarters (100yds and closer, pine thickets, oak flats, etc.) and the 200-300yd shots are uncommon.  My rifle is a 7mm-08 with a 2.5x8x36 Vari-X III.  I've had the scope for about 6-7 yrs now and have been happy with it.  That is until the other day..........
 
At 5:30pm, I had a deer walk out right under my tree.  When I pulled my rifle up, I could just make out the body but couldn't tell if it was a buck or not.  The deer walked around under my tree for 10-15 more minutes before finally wandering off.  I'm hunting a very good deer in this pine thicket and I couldn't tell if it was him or not.  Walking back to the truck, all I could think of was if a Kahles or a Zeiss would've really given me an edge.  Granted, it was getting dark and I was looking down into a dark thicket, but I couldn't help but wonder "what if?"  Now, I know the upper tier scopes are superior optically, and I wouldn't expect one to flip a light switch, but would one give me those extra minutes?  
 
I've had my eyes on a Kahles C 1,5x6x42 on the sample list.  Would that be a combination that would fit my needs?  Thanks in advance for any help and sorry for the long post.
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 09:21
yes without a doubt the kahles would make a difference as would a zeiss. not taking anything away from your old varix3 cause they are good scopes, but the quality of the glass and coatings applied to them has been improved since that scope was made.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 09:37
The reason I bought a Kahles sight unseen was looking through the scope you have.  I got the 2-7 AH off the sample list.  It is clearer at all settings, but not as much at the highest powers.
 
For close stuff the 1.5x6 may be a better fit.  Zeiss also has a 2.5x8  


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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Chris Farris II
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 09:37
That is when you can tell the difference big time with the superior quality scopes dusk and dawn. They definately give you an edge. I had a similar instance as yours the only reason I was able to make the buck out and make the shot was due to the optics on the gun!

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One day your life will flash before your eyes; Make sure it's worth watching.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 10:16
Just so you know, a trijicon would have helped immensely as well. Make sure that you get a scope that has a thick post like a 7a or such I think that's right, but that will help if you go with a scope that doesn't have any illumination.
Welcome to the OT 


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 10:22

Welcome, caincutter!

My take on this question is "sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't."
 
The premium optics are definitely better, but whether or not they are 2X or in some cases 3X better than mid range scopes relative to the difference in the price tag is something nobody can answer but you.  Is having an extra 15 minutes of low light visibility in the early morning & late evening hours worth $700 - $1200 extra above and beyond what you pay for the average "decent" scope to you?  Keep in mind that you may have the scope for the rest of your life and use it for many hunting seasons to come, so factored over a lifetime, that may not be such an insurmountable price tag.  To me, it is worth having a couple high end scopes for this reason, but I couldn't afford to scope all my rifles with them.  Truthfully, there isn't a great deal of difference between the super premium $1500+ 30mm scopes and some of the better 1" tube scopes from brands like Zeiss, Kahles, Swaro, etc.  Some people just don't place a high value on great optical performance, which is certainly fine, and they still have no trouble killing their share of game.  It's all a matter of what's important to you and how picky you are about optics.  I have optics of all quality levels, and all will do the job.  But, I enjoy using my "good stuff" better. 

The type of hunting you intend to use the scope should also play a big factor in your decision.  If most of your hunting is during good light, most scopes will work just fine.  If you hunt a lot in low light, or especially if you frequently hunt at night (where legal) for critters like predators and feral hogs, having premium optics provides a definite advantage.



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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 11:12
Buy what you can afford! I cant afford anything better than a Weaver and to be honest, If you need a scope to light things up for you, its time to go to bed, Not hunt.

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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 11:17

i disagree with you there, a good scope will help you make that shot at last possible light



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: caincutter
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 11:20
Thanks for all the reply's.  I agree rifledude about the investment.  To me, it's not a question of initial price, because if you buy premium products with a lifetime warranty, then, in theory, it's a one-time cost.  My concerns mainly rested in the fact that I don't want to buy into names or hyperbole;  if I pay for "best" then I want it to actually be "best" in hunting situations.  My Leupold is what it is-a fine scope that's served me well so far.  It has it's limitations, yes, and now I'm ready to move up.  It's just hard to spend money sometimes on something that you've not had any experience with.  Probably like most folks, in my family and where I hunt, you don't see a Zeiss or Swaro sitting atop every blued barrell.  I come here to hopefully read accounts of some knowledgeable people, such as yourself, to give real world experiences.  I can then take that, look for myself, and make an educated or well-informed decision ( I hope Big%20Grin).
 
Again, thanks for the responses and keep the good info coming.


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 11:37
 
 It really comes down to opinion. It is a matter of fact that a very expensive scopes will often give you more minutes of shooting time , most of the time.  It is a matter of opinion whether killing that deer is worth 700 or a thousand dollars more than the scope you have.
 Keep in mind that no matter what you get, there is or soon will be something better.  You can spend your whole life and a lot of money continually upgrading, or resign yourself to the fact that some of them get away...


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 11:39

What made me step up to Kahles was I could not see in my riflescopes what I was seeing in my 7x42 Zeiss binoculars in low light. It is discouraging to see a nice buck in the thick stuff or long range in low light. Then go to the rifle and not be able to pick it out. This has happened when there is a small herd, too. I see them in the binos then go to make the shot and then it's "which one is it". Nothing but brown bodies and no head gear.



Posted By: medic52
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 13:57
In answer to your question is it worth it? TO me yes it is and yes I did, I UPGRADED to the better optics......

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." G.K. Chesterton


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 14:25
I doubt you will be disappointed!

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take em!


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 14:39
I hunt a lot with a Kahles 3-9X42 CL and a Leupold VX III 2.5-8X36 (half the price, but better than your Vari X III).  Is there a difference in low light? Well, maybe, ...sometimes,.....probably no real difference.   The Kahles has a big beautiful picture; really nice to look through.  The Leupold is not as nice, but as I've said here before, neither it or some of my cheaper scopes have ever kept me from making an ethical, legal shot in low light.  Sounds to me like you need binoculars.  A scope is not for telling if it's a buck or not.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 14:48
Mike, while I agree that bino's are the ticket, I have to disagree to some extent with the reasoning. When light is low, and animals are moving sometimes trying to pick out the buck from the others can be hard at best, the third one from the front might not be the buck by the time you get the scope up. That's why I would disagree. So I'll take the better optics. Hey to each their own though. 

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 14:58
Dissappointed? No, Broke? Yes!

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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: jonbravado
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 14:59
i think we are splittin hairs here -
 
good glass (binos AND scope) are equally important in my opinion.
 
having both has made me a more effective and ethical hunter.
 
where i hunt in SC, 90% of your shots on the big bucks are taking in fading/poor light.
 
it makes or breaks it for me.
 
my 2 cents.  The kahles CL will give you 10-15 more minutes of hunting over that vari-x.
but so will a zeiss conquest in the proper configuration.
 
J


Posted By: jonbravado
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:00
and to illustrate - i talked a buddy of mine into a pair of 7x50 fujinon binos, and he is sitting 15 minutes longer in the evenings and shooting more quality deer.
 
glass really matters.
 
J


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:01
Originally posted by TJ TJ wrote:

Dissappointed? No, Broke? Yes!
the price you have to pay for success sometimes


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:13
Glass absolutely matters, no question. Get the best glass you can almost afford. In other words save a little longer and hunt a little longer, the correlation is uncanny.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:14
Originally posted by caincutter caincutter wrote:

...if I pay for "best" then I want it to actually be "best" in hunting situations.    It's just hard to spend money sometimes on something that you've not had any experience with. 
 
The "Best" is the best because it actually is, not because of any hyperbole, otherwise the premium scopes wouldn't have survived on the market for as long as they have given their price tags.  However, just like many other things in life, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point where you pay an increasingly hefty premium for increasingly smaller improvements in optical performance.  So, at some point, you have to evaluate at what point the price tag to continually jump up in quality is no longer worth it to you.  You are very wise to ask these questions, because even though you should get a lifetime of service, a high end riflescope is still a big investment.  As such, it's hard for me to recommend to anyone to go out and spend $1500 - $2000 on a rifle scope, unless it is some specialized optic like a specific tactical or varmint scope.  Even though I can certainly recognize and appreciate the quality and optical performance of these uber-scopes and even own a couple myself, that's a huge investment for something you will use only to make the occasional shot at game.  I'm not at all saying you shouldn't buy one, but once you get into that price bracket, I don't want someone being angry at me for my recommendation if they don't see things the same way I do.  Also, there are quite a few very good riflescopes in the $750 - $1000 price range that are almost as good as the $1500 + scopes optically.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:30
I tell you where I drew the line for my average scope purchase, right where they were bright enough to allow me to sit until the final minute of legal shooting light and not have to pass anything up due to glass quality. Now different states have different laws concerning this so I can only go by where I hunt and how dark it can get there, worst case scenario. Thats 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 after, thats also in thick heavy overstory cedar and spruce bogs in cloudy, rainy, snowy, or foggy weather. What one guy in the open hardwoods and field edges can see at the end of legal shooting light is nothing compared to what the guy down in an area where its dim in mid day light has to contend with come dusk. I picked the dimmest areas I hunt in the worst visibility weather and the conquest was my minimum scope to use with sufficient brightness and resolution. Doesn't mean I don't want to eventually get a scope in the next optical level but it will only be one and the rest just require as good as needed. At night hunting coyotes by moonlight I don't think you can have a bright enough scope no matter what you spend.

   Focus

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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: Chris Farris II
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:34
Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

I hunt a lot with a Kahles 3-9X42 CL and a Leupold VX III 2.5-8X36 (half the price, but better than your Vari X III).  Is there a difference in low light? Well, maybe, ...sometimes,.....probably no real difference.   The Kahles has a big beautiful picture; really nice to look through.  The Leupold is not as nice, but as I've said here before, neither it or some of my cheaper scopes have ever kept me from making an ethical, legal shot in low light.  Sounds to me like you need binoculars.  A scope is not for telling if it's a buck or not.
  I am with Cyborg on this you need good binos to but a Kahles vs. a Leuopold, Kahles will definately give you an extended time frame to shoot due to the superior quality of glass and light gathering. While binos are important the scope is also important. (IMHO) What help does it have to be able to look at the buck and see it through the bino's if you can't see which one to shoot through the scope.

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One day your life will flash before your eyes; Make sure it's worth watching.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:36
+ 10 Focus on the reasoning. You are exactly right. I've used an IOR in that type of an area, Cut overs it's really more a matter of choice.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Chris Farris
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:51
Same thing has happened to me many times.  When its "show time" all the deer seem to come out at once.  I use my binos, which are superior to my scope in resolution and light transmission, to judge and determine if an animal is a shooter or not.  If the scope I am using is not above average I will not be able to see any where close to what I saw through my binos.
 
If you hunt with a binocular that is equal to or lesser quality compared to your scope you are missing a lot of game.  Many times the game you can see through a high end binocular will be past legal shooting times or right at the limit.  Using a high end scope could get you in trouble with the game warden.  I can't tell you how many times I've been the last one back to camp because I could still see and still hunt.  Even if you can't shoot legally, you can see what is coming out and pattern it back to its bed and or food source to have a chance at it during legal hours.
 
The best way for us to sell you a high end scope is to sell you a high binocular first. Wink


-------------
SWFA, Inc.
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Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 15:56
Yeah optics can get real important in that first 10 or last 10 minutes.......don't make me feel very good to see a shooter with bino's and then not be able to in the scope :>( Ever notice them big ol' basters always wait till the last ticks to start to move? Thats how they got big.......hard to put a price on not being able to shoot a buck of a lifetime.......Cyborg we must hunt alike, if its not dark and gloomy I just don't feel like I'm getting close to a bruisers bedroom.

I'm sorta glad that where I hunt don't allow hour before and after.....I'd have to mortgage the house to afford the level of scope to be able to use that extra low light....

Focus



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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 16:01
I like it way back in the heaviest nasty cover I can find, back in the swamp bottoms. I have spent my fair share of time in the cutovers where there is heavy cover surrounding it. I really like to hunt the edges in that type of scenario.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 17:32

This comment is for the original question,  which I believe you answered your self.  You have doubt in your present equipment, which for me is enough reason to justify something else.  If you can afford it, I believe you should spoil yourself with a fine piece of optical orgasam.



Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 17:43
Its all a pretty moot point if your budget cant handle $1000.00+ for a scope on a $699.00 rifle. Shocked

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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 17:46
not really you cant hit what you cant see.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: B&C Buck
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 19:08
To me, its all in how much you value your shot opportunity...and how much you can afford.   I'm a trophy hunter, so if I could afford to put $1500 scopes on my big game rifles I would, but I can't, so I go with the Conquest to Kahles level of scope.  I save my money on varmit scopes, if a coyote slips by me at dawn/dusk, so be it as I don't value those as highly.
 
And I agree on the binoculars.  Those are a must have and don't skimp there.  Figure out what you can afford and then spend a little more.  The high Zeiss and Leica are worth every penny!
 


Posted By: Obi Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 20:02
Originally posted by caincutter caincutter wrote:

Morning all-
 
I have a question that's probably been answered and discussed ad nauseum, but can't seem to find it specifically in my search.  If so, please forgive and help out if you will. 
 
My question is, are the higher end scopes really worth the price of admission?  The reason I ask is I had a hunting situation the other day that left me wondering.  I hunt in south MS and in primarily close quarters (100yds and closer, pine thickets, oak flats, etc.) and the 200-300yd shots are uncommon.  My rifle is a 7mm-08 with a 2.5x8x36 Vari-X III.  I've had the scope for about 6-7 yrs now and have been happy with it.  That is until the other day..........
 
At 5:30pm, I had a deer walk out right under my tree.  When I pulled my rifle up, I could just make out the body but couldn't tell if it was a buck or not.  The deer walked around under my tree for 10-15 more minutes before finally wandering off.  I'm hunting a very good deer in this pine thicket and I couldn't tell if it was him or not.  Walking back to the truck, all I could think of was if a Kahles or a Zeiss would've really given me an edge.  Granted, it was getting dark and I was looking down into a dark thicket, but I couldn't help but wonder "what if?"  Now, I know the upper tier scopes are superior optically, and I wouldn't expect one to flip a light switch, but would one give me those extra minutes?  
 
I've had my eyes on a Kahles C 1,5x6x42 on the sample list.  Would that be a combination that would fit my needs?  Thanks in advance for any help and sorry for the long post.
 
 
 
Caincutter welcome to the forum.
 
First off let me tell you this about myself. I'm a normal 9-5 type of guy. I'm not a millionaire, I don't get to go on hunting trips in Africa every year & I don't get to go on the private ranches in Tx that cost 5 grand, even though I do plan to hunt Canada 1 day. I hunt truly wild deer in SC on unfenced private property & around here we can hunt until 1 hour past sunset.
 
All that being said, I was JUST LIKE YOU several years ago. I had every scope under the sun looking for something that would help me see better in low light. I owned a Tasco"first scope I got as a teenager", then I went to a Simmons 44mag, a Nikon, then I finally got my hands on a VariX III. Still I got the same results. Only when my future brother in law who's also a whitetail fanatic introduced me to Zeiss did I "finally see the light". When he told me the cost of a Zeiss scope I thought he was insane. When I compared my VariX III side by side with his scope I found out I was insane.
 
Yes the higher end scopes are worth the money for the low light capability. Scopes aren't status symbols like clothing or cars. With a Zeiss, Kahles, Swaro, S&B ect ect you GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
 
I shot the biggest deer of my life last year, an 11 pointer & he's going to score near 140 or a little above. I shot that deer about 6:10 pm, the legal shooting time was 6:17. I couldn't have made a clean ethical kill at 90 yards if I had my VariX III with me. In fact I would have climbed down 15-20 minutes sooner.
 
So yes they are worth the money. My personal preference is Zeiss or Kahles & I like something with a 50mm objective but a Kahles 1.5-6x42 may do the trick.  I just bought a .280 last September & haven't put any glass on it yet. No matter how long it takes me to put a little money away, several months to a couple of years nothing but high end glass will ever go on any of my future rifles. I'd rather have high end glass on a good factory rifle like a Rem 700 than have a great Sako 85 with a poor scope on top of it. You can't shoot what you can't see.


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 20:41
Originally posted by TJ TJ wrote:

Its all a pretty moot point if your budget cant handle $1000.00+ for a scope on a $699.00 rifle. Shocked
  
 
 I realize what you are saying ,TJ, which brings up another point. I think it's foolish to spend more on your rifle than on your scope, even though I've done it myself many times. As I've gotten older I think I've learned enough to be able to make a very strong argument in favor of spending 1100 bucks of a 1200 dollar budget on the scope, leaving 100 bucks for a surplus Mauser.  I know most of you guys would think that is nuts, but that is honestly about what I would do in that budget scenario. Most of us have real budget constraints, and I think we sometimes spend our hard-earned money in the wrong places.  I know plenty of guys who won't cough up 500 bucks for a scope to mount on their Weatherbys, because they "could buy another rifle for that kind of cash!"
 So they have a Simmons on the Weatherby and  four more nearly identical rifles in the cabinet at home. THAT is nuts!


Posted By: jackG
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 22:29
The last comment caught my interest.  I read somwhere a comparison between European and American hunters.   Keep in mind, they allow hunting in near darkness in Europe, as I understand it.   The quote ran something like, "You Americans spend $1000 for a rifle and put a $100 scope on it.   In Europe we spend $1000 for a scope and put in on $100 rifle."
 
The logic is clear.  A good surplus Mausers in 7 or 8X57will shoot around 1.5 MOA.  If you can see what you're aiming at, at reasonable ranges, you can hit it.  That suggests that for most "typical" non-extreme hunting ranges, the optical sights are the most important component. 
 
Mind you I"m not dumping Tikka for a surplus rifle, but I'm probably going to mount a Kahles on it.  Next fall the deer will be flopping through Austrian glass. 


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 06:32
Here's the beauty of the situation, you DON'T have to spend 1000.00 to get a scope to extend those precious minutes of hunting time. Sure it'll be close to that, but hey ask yourself this "How much planning and budgeting do you do every year for the opportunity to bag a true shooter buck?" When you get right down to it, it really IS worth it.
Do a little research and you can find several scopes that have 95% light transmission with good reputations for being dependable, and are less than 900.00. Especially if you look here at SWFA and check out the sample list.
Remember this as well "You make your own luck"


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 07:56
The best way for us to sell you a high end scope is to sell you a high binocular first. Wink
 
So true, Chris!
 
We all hunt in different situations.  My point about binculars comes from the fact that a good pair has brought me more enjoyment and success than any scope.  There have been times when I shot deer late that I knew what he was from looking through my binocs, but looking through the scope I could only see body.  I've not been in a situation (in 45 years of hunting) where I couldn't tell which deer I wanted to shoot, but I can certainly see where that would be the case if you were in an area with a lot of nice deer.  I'm not that fortunate.  One of the places I hunt a lot is in a thick bottom, where a glimpse is all you get and 30 minutes after sunrise is absolute black dark.  In that situation, it's not a matter of binocs or a high dollar scope; it's all about deciding to shoot, getting on him fast, and then "ground checking" Big%20Smile


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 09:04
Wood and glass trophys mean more to me than a dead deer hanging on the wall, Dont get me wrong, I hunt ALOT! But not for trophys, For the meat. And my Burris and Simmons scopes have got the job done for more than 25 years. I also shoot competativly @ our local club.  And if a scope holds its zero and I can see the bullseye clearly, Then Im happy.
I think alot of people buy them big name european scopes for the "prestige" factor too. OH Look at me, I have a $995.99 Zies/Swarovsky scope on my $499.95 Gander Mountain rifle.
Hey If you can do that go for it, they are great scopes. But I can barely afford to buy the WeaverGS, Or Burris FF for me and my Sons rifles right know.


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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 09:08
ever think that some people hunt meat just like you do, i know i do, i never pass up deer ever, at the same time i buy the best scopes i can afford and so far i dont have any scopes that are worth more than any of the rifles they sit on, but if i could i would, there is no substitute for great glass, and in the original posters question we are talking about an exspensive scope and he wants to spend the money to get it because he can afford it.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 09:26
So you're a trophy hunter TJ, you just put your effort into winning competitions instead of shooting big bucks. By this very definition you would only be concerned with POI and tracking as very few competitions are held in near darkness. For you what would make a good trophy scope would be radically different from what would make a good hunting scope. Explains your negativity about good high end hunting optics. I have never met any hunter yet so poor that they couldn't afford one good mid level conquest or kahles scope........$400-600 dollar outlay for a scope that will make your ability to shoot in low light better........If you can afford a snowsled, ATV, new rifle, good binos, heck $3.00+ a gallon gas......you can afford a decent scope for your hunting rifle. Its the mindset to have all the toys but scrimp on optics that prevails. Quality optics have never been cheaper to afford, $200-250 buys 4200 elite or monarch quality optics for hunting......

Focus

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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 09:29
I doubt the Prestige factor, atleast as far as the folks I hunt with, I'm sure there are some out there, just not a majority. I have alot more respect for the person that can research and make a wise decision based on his financial situation. The 4200 elite comes to mind here. What's the best you can get in your budget area. That's the real question that all of us have to figure out for ourselves. For instance I have only owned two scopes that cost me more than 1000.00 a Leupold and an IOR, Folks would see that Leo and say wow, nice scope, but honestly the IOR would run circles around the Leo. Nobody would OOOH, and AHHH the IOR, until they looked through it. Leupold would be the prestige (GOLD RING) and it's not that optically superior to my TRS-1, and not as good as my Elite 4200.
Swift is another that comes to mind as well. several people that own them love them, and for good reason, the performance to dollar ratio is fantastic. That is where I can respect a scope purchase.  


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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:00
Here's a shocker for y'all.  Between us, my brother and I have hunted deer for 100 years.  I'll conservatively estimate that in that time we've killed 100 bucks while hunting with a rifle.  Not a single one of those, ..zero, ...zilch,... nada, did we know exactly how many points the deer had until we walked up to him on the ground.  Where we hunt, you just can't take that kind of time or your shot is gone.  Only the bucks I've killed bowhunting did I know exactly what I was shooting.  Same for my brother.  So that's why I say a high dollar scope is nice, but it really doesn't help.  That has been my experience, consistently, for a long time.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:04
Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

Here's a shocker for y'all.  Between us, my brother and I have hunted deer for 100 years.  I'll conservatively estimate that in that time we've killed 100 bucks while hunting with a rifle.  Not a single one of those, ..zero, ...zilch,... nada, did we know exactly how many points the deer had until we walked up to him on the ground.  Where we hunt, you just can't take that kind of time or your shot is gone.  Only the bucks I've killed bowhunting did I know exactly what I was shooting.  Same for my brother.  So that's why I say a high dollar scope is nice, but it really doesn't help.  That has been my experience, consistently, for a long time.
mike i will agree with you 100% i too have shot a number of bucks and i too had no clue as to how big or small they were until walked up to the site where it lay, excellent post


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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:17
Well in theory that's good, You tell me though, when it's doe days and you can't tell a young buck from a doe due to optical inferiority, how you gonna explain that to the game warden? I'll stick with getting the best that I can almost afford. It's not a luxury when laws are mandating. I say this because I have had this very thing happen to me. luckily the judge was a decent fella, and saw it for what it was. We all know how it could have turned out though now don't we?

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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Chris Farris
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:24
Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

..... when it's doe days and you can't tell a young buck from a doe due to optical inferiority, how you gonna explain that to the game warden? 
 
We are one of the only sources for the http://www.swfa.com/c-172-zeiss-classic-binoculars.aspx - Zeiss 20x60 image stabilizer binoculars and the majority of our sales are to land owners that are managing their deer herd/population.  They can't afford to shoot a nubbin' buck accidentally.


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SWFA, Inc.
http://SWFA.com - SWFA.com
http://www.swfa-ss.com - SWFA-SS.com
http://www.mil-dot.com - Mil-Dot.com
http://www.samplelist.com - SampleList.com


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:24
I have to disagree on the above points. I always want to know what animal I'm shooting at. Most of my shots come in low light, in heavy cover or at long range involving both. If I can see the animal in my binoculars I sure want to see it in my scope. For me, having top drawer binos means buying the best scope I can get. Great glass has not always been within my reach nor a priority like it is now. I will strive for better glass on all my guns. I sat on my Burris FF's and VariX-III's for many years and honestly lost chances in marginal conditions because they could not keep up with my Zeiss binoculars.
Everyone has budget constraints whether it is on the firearm or the optics. Regardless, premium optics let you see earlier or later under marginal conditions.
I hunt for the trophy as much as the meat and I will always eat an old swamp ghost. I am always passing on deer because I like big racksWink


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:29
because I like big racksWink   Ya me too!!!!


Posted By: bricat
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:37
Smaller racks with Really big tines are nice too.

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Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:40
Dolly Parton deer, are nice too. Big%20Grin

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Chris Farris II
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:48
Be careful shooting like that mwyates you never know what could be out there. For all you know you could have shot rudolph. ------>Rudolph 

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One day your life will flash before your eyes; Make sure it's worth watching.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:51
Coal in the stocking for sure, not to mention all the songs that would be written.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 11:52
well obviously we arent  talking about just point and click here folks, where i live party hunting is legal so really until the last weekend of season if its brown its down is our motto, with 10-12 people in the party and the chance for each of us to harvest 4 does and one buck there isnt really any need to look around, when it comes to the last weekend then we make damn sure of what we are shooting, without a good set of optics how would you tell? sometimes you gotta pay to play

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 12:18
I just purchased a Simmons scope for an AR-Varmint rig I'm building for my son. Know Im second guessing my purchase.Sad

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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 12:27
we arent talking about varminting! we are talking about last legal light for shooting deer and other big game, and why it cost more to have a scope thats going to prefom in low lighting conditons, missing a coyote isnt a big deal to most people, missing a huge buck is. you are lost im affraid

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 12:27
There is no need to second guess if it does the job. Most scopes work when there is good light or few obstructions. Like was already said, I would rather have better optics on my big game sticks. On my varmint and predator rigs I have mid-range optics. This is how I budget and YMMV.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 12:29
i do as well i have a $300 scope on my deer rifles and a $100 scope on my 22-250 so what if its cheap varmints dont put meat on my table, deer rifles do.

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 12:55
I should clarify.  If I'm doe hunting, I have my bow.  If I'm rifle hunting, I don't shoot unless I know it's a mature buck; I just can't know how good until I walk up to him.  As far as Bambi goes, he's always safe around me.  His mother, however, is in danger when I'm bowhunting Big%20Smile  I use my 6X32's all the time when bowhunting to make sure I don't shoot a button buck. 


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 13:25
I dont think I'm lost at all! Injured game is injured game! I want the best glass my money can get me, no matter WHAT Im hunting.
I hunt deer with my Desert Eagle 44 magnum most of the time anyway, My leupold M8 2X is very sufficient in this area.
Im not trying to fight with you guys, All Im saying is, If I could afford a Swarovsky I probably would NOT buy it. I like leupolds, Weaver and Burris, and in a pinch (when the green is low) Simmons have worked for me very well. They work better than my eye's alone do.


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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: jonbravado
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 14:40
Well - then there's clubs where i hunt that you are FINED if you shoot bucks that don't have 4 per side, or aren't OUTSIDE the ears. And they go as far as limiting your remaining season - stands, doe tags, etc.  It sounds crazy, but there is quality deer down there because of that on only 3000 acres.  I passed up a 180 lb monster because i had seen a bigger one with him earlier in the season. expensive and nerve racking. but great at the same time.
 
we all have our points. no pun intended.
 
i'd still rather have the glass, than not.
 
J


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 15:01
Here in michigan We can buy 1 Buck tag, Second tag with antler size (4 point minimum one side) limits.  Doe tag 1 per day. you can shoot button bucks with a doe tag.

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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 15:12
i never said take a bad shot, but with good quality glass you get a lot better look at what your shooting, leupold makes a tough scope, thats it, its not a great scope optically, especially for the price, there are many other scopes costing $100's less than a comparable leupold that are better optically, heck your burris is better than the vxII! point is that if the original poster of this thread wants a good scope for shooting at last light its going to cost more than $200. i will agree with you that if i could afford to buy a swaro  i wouldnt either, kahles and zeiss make good scopes that are comparable and cost less.

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 15:18
How about this.  SWFA has the Kahles 3-9X42 CL for $699 now.  As I said earlier, I have one of these.  There's not a better deal in the scope world right now, I don't think.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 15:24
i wouldnt disagree with you mike!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 15:38
What is your Opinion of NightForce scopes Pyro?

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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 15:39
dont know cant afford one never seen one, i hear they are pretty nice, but heavy

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 15:50
Tagged....

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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Skunk
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 16:00
Misure Truck Driver You Sound Like You Need Price Of Diesel To Go Down. De NightForce Scope Is To Good For You, Misure Leupold Fan, NightForce Make Your Gold Ring Scope Look Like How I Say Dis? Ah Poop, We! American Optics No Good Compared To De Fine European Scopes, De NightForce Is Best American Scope For Beese Bool Bat, Heavy Like Rock!

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Let me give you my two scents worth


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: January/15/2008 at 16:07
Give 'em hell, Skunkeroo! ( how about a low light scope for nighttime SKUNK shootin'...)   Bucky


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/16/2008 at 06:20
Hey Skunk, Get this you fuzzy stinker. We AMERICANS will carry heavier scopes because we're more manly, second IF we run out of ammo, WE won't run, we'll simply take the scope off and use it for a club. PLAINLY PUT, WE FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: TJ
Date Posted: January/16/2008 at 06:26
Uh Oh! Here we go!

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If the .50 BMG Cant get the job done......RUN!


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: January/16/2008 at 06:40
Nightforce very good Japanese glass, for what they cost however you can buy better euro glass. Nightforce are in their element for target and varmint hunting, on the heavy side for a carry around hunting rifle. They also work well for wiffle and softball but not baseball.....

Focus

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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: January/16/2008 at 06:42
Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

How about this. SWFA has the Kahles 3-9X42 CL for $699 now. As I said earlier, I have one of these. There's not a better deal in the scope world right now, I don't think.


Thats the truest statement concerning high end hunting optics one can make right now.....

   Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......



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