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300 wsm- velocity not up to par?

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Topic: 300 wsm- velocity not up to par?
Posted By: OLRVRAT
Subject: 300 wsm- velocity not up to par?
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 19:21
 I've got a new toy 300 wsm mauser action, 24" Douglas barrel, Timney trigger. This is the 2 nd one i've loaded for. The other was a 1885 Highwall. I'm still under max on the powder, the bolt's gettin a little sticky and the fps is about 250 under what the book reads. Not much better than an 06. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 
 



Replies:
Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 20:46
Whne the bolt "gets sticky" you're about 60 to 62kpsi pressure.  At 65Kpsi the primers fall out.    Time to back off the charge weight. 
 
Things to consider;
 
The only barrel that got the velocity readings listed in the manual was the one used to test the loads.
Your chamber could be larger.
You could be using different brass.
You could and likely do have a different lot of powder from that tested.
You have different primers.
Your barrel is on the loose end of acceptable land-groove dimension.
 
Try a different powder, brass with smaller capacity, and hotter primers.  Be willing to accept the possibility that you may not be able to safely achieve the result you want.
 
Reloading is 100% pure science and chemistry....................................except for all the magical stuff that  just happens  :)


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:14
Thanks.
 I've been reloading for quite sometime. All factory guns.  All i've ever used is CCI & winchester primers. They are using winchester in the book.
 So without sounding real stupid . What is loose end of acceptale land -groove dimension?
  I'm having a hard time getting a good reading of the col with my Stoney point, it feels like the bullet is catching on something sometimes. So i' m wondering if being to far off the lands could be part of the cause?
 If the chamber was large would the brass be harder to resize?


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:31
is it a real mauser 98 action or a modified mauser, (winchester, remington, kimber, ruger etc)??


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:42
It's a sporterized bruno vz24 with a #1 douglas match grade barrel. The work was supposed to have been done by Kimber. It hadn't been fired when i got it. It shoots good groups i would just like to acheive more fps than 2900 with 150 gr
 Thanks


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:46
 
 A sticky bolt can sometimes be caused by normal pressures in extremely soft brass.
A chamber cast can tell you if there is something unusual about the chamber/ throat/leade as well as the true land/ groove dimensions, at least as they measure in that portion of the barrel near the chamber. If you can boil water, you can make a chamber cast of Cerrosafe.
 Another possibility is that you have a very rough bore.  If it fouls easily you should consider lapping it.


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 22:33
Thanks.
 The patches have quite a bit of blue on them after 2 groups.  I use Montana x treme bore solvent , i think i'll run some patches with JB bore compound thru it. Is that a good idea? Can a rough bore slow it down that much?
 I looked up that Cerrosafe at competitor , i can handle boiling the water but the rest of it might be a little too technical for a cowboy! And i'm not sure about the lapping.
 


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 23:32
Ditto on everyone`s suggestions above!! I would certainly try changing all of your components and try many combos first. The last resort would then be to change to a new barrel.................To show how radically different two rifles can be chambered in the same caliber, my case is the exact opposite of your situation. I also own a 300 WSM. My reload chrono results have not only have exceeded my expectations, but helped me win a few bets too!...........These loads were carefully increased for my rifle..............70.2gr. IMR4350 w/150 gr. Sierra SPBT @3155 fps. average. This is the maximum, as the bolt lift was a little more difficult, but no other pressure signs were evident from the case bottom or from the primers. A full grain reduction had no bolt lift problems. At 69.2 gr. the average MV was 3105 fps....................71.5 gr. Rel19 w/180gr. Sierra SPBT @ 2948 fps. Again, there was a little more difficulty to raise the bolt, but no other pressure signs were seen. I have achieved 2994 fps. with another combo using the 180 gr....................69 gr. Rel 19 w/200 gr. Nosler A/B @ 2828 fps. This as the others, I consider to be maximum for my rifle! All are great hunting loads!!......................................Want a real shocker???ShockedShockedShocked The loads above were achieved from my M77, 300 WSM Ruger Frontier compact, with only a 16.5" barrel!!!!!!!...Apparently, my rifle has a higher tolerance for increased charges, meaning more velocity using Sierra bullets and A/B`s before the real pressure signs come to bear............Another chrono also confirmed the above results!!! Figure that one out!!! WhackoWhackoWhackoWhacko

-------------
300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 23:46
I forgot to mention in my above post, that I have used JB Compound for years and years! Prior to the above chrono results, I began using JB Bore Brite after using the JB Compound!!!......Needless to say, I noticed a difference in the bore after using the normal compound followed by the Bore Brite!..........It absolutely shines like a mirror finish!!!........Does that translate into more velocity??? Well! It certainly won`t detract from it or cause a decrease!!

-------------
300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 07:52
good holy god something is wrong if you cant get more than 2900 with a 150gr bullet, im getting almost 3000fps with 180grbullet, and thats not even a max load. i use reloader-19 with cci magnum primers.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 07:59
Have several mausers, turkish rebuilt in 8mm, deutsch in 30-06, bruno in 6mm and none will reach the velocitys of a ruger or remingtion, even though they all have top quality and  aftermarket barrels, correct chambers, and throats. I think a lot of the mausers have softer actions, and can stretch from the bolt thrust so I don't push them. Deutsch military surplus in the 8 even causes lifting problems. I think it has a lot to do with the flat bolt face, of the bolt, and a slight set back on firing showing signs of high pressure.


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 08:48
Thanks for all the response.
 I think i'll keep shootin & scrubbin and see if things smooth out. Has anyone ever tried Tubb finalfinish bore polishing system and would it be worth a try.
 I don't know of a gunsmith close to where i live or i would take it to one & have it looked at.
 I have a 300 saum that pushes a 150 around 3100 fps & my 325 wsm a 180 at 2975.
 I know you're thinkin  what do you need a 300 wsm for? I don't, just seeing which one i like best. I was expecting around 3200 with the 300 wsm, i was over that with the highwall but it had a 28" barrel.
 I was wondering about the action and Dale you answered that for me Thanks.
 Maybe i'll make her into something else, just have to figure out what with a magnum bolt face.
 Thanks again everyone.


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 09:44
One other thing to consider is that the 150 grain bullet may have too little bearing surface for the barrel you're shooting, resulting in a failure to build sufficient pressure.
 
Side step that for a moment.
 
Get Tubbs Final Finish and follow the instructions.  Douglas barrels are not lapped and the Tubb treatment will cut fouling alot.
 
Side step that for a moment.
My VZ24 338-06 with a Shilen chrome moly barrel exceeds Sierras charge weight per velocity readings by up to 150 fps.   It has a proper dimension chamber.
 
Back to things in order;
Douglas barrrels are slow in comparision to most factory barrels and most all custom barrels.
Do the Final finish thing.
Go to a 180 grain or 190 grain bullet and work up a load.  See at that point if velocities are more in line with the charge per velocity readings in the manual.
 
A large chamber will cause more effort to be excerted in resizing brass.
 
From Dales post.
If your VZ24 BRNO mauser has a set back bolt or lugs, throw it away.  The BRNO is notoriously strong, a Remington will be destroyed before the BRNO gives up, so if you check and find the bolt lugs or receiver lugs set back, ditch the rifle right away.


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 10:45
 The brass from this rifle goes through the resizer die easier than the brass from the highwall.
 I'm not sure what you mean by set back lugs, the way they were made or from pressure?
They look fine to me no marks or wear. I apologize for my ignorance on some of this but i would rather not learn the hard way!
 I was only able to chrono it the one day because it's been to cold most days for the chrono.
 I been going by pressure signs sticky bolt and primers, although the primers haven't been flattened to much.
 Thanks again.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 11:03
in some cases the bolt thrust or back force can "peen" the locking lugs of the bolt into the lock lugs of action, causing an excessive amount of distance. so the condition becomes dangerous.


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 11:04
No one has mentioned this but my loads that are right there in the summer sometimes tumble 100-150fps when shot in cold winter weather. Some powders like hodgedon extreme are pretty good for staying consistant while others are terrible. Something to maybe consider. I don't recall you mentioning what powder you are using....not a ball is it?

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 12:09
 RL15, RL19, IMR 4064, IMR4831   Winchester magnum primers
  The loads i chrono were 60.5 gr rl15  & 59.5 Imr 4064 both with 150 gr nosler ballistic tip
  both around 2950fps the 4064 load was a little slower
 Thanks


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 12:10
 i forgot to mention it was 34 degrees


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 12:16
Your lack of velocity is probably a combo of your barrel and the cold temps!!!........Chrono those same loads in the summer and see what the difference is!!! A 300 Win. Mag should well exceed the `06, regardless of weather temps.

-------------
300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 14:11
None of the powders you listed do well below 50 degrees F.
 
If you'l find a Hodgedons equivilent powder you'll see less velocity loss below 50 degrees and alot less under 40 degrees.
 
Stay away from Vhiti Vhouhri powders, they don't do well in cold temps at all, regarding velocity retention.
 
BTW, alot of research has been done on primers as a pressure indicator and all of it indicates that the use of primers as an indicator is not a good thing.
That sticky bolt is telling you that the max safe pressure for the action has been exceeded.......by alot.
 
Spend time with the chronograph as a load density indicator, and graph the velocity based on X load increment increase = Y velocity increase.
When you see something like 2/10th grain powder charge increase giving you 75fps velocity increase, there's room to continue.
When that same 2/10th gives you 10fps you're over max and need to back down.
 
 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 16:24
i havent ever had any luck with any bullets in the 300's wsm or winmag weighing less than 165gr, and had best success with the 180gr

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 17:25
Well your a grain under max in the nosler book for both loads.....they also post velocities with a 26" barrel. I think when its warm you will be about 75-100fps off there posted velocities with the same powder.

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/26/2007 at 17:26
i think my book is done with a 24" barrel in the 300wsm its 26" for the 300winmag though

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 15:10
You might want to check out the information on Richard Franklin`s website on 300 wsm he is pushing them past 4000 fps
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/favoritevarmintrifles.htm - http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/favoritevarmintrifles.htm
 
Duce  Smile


-------------
Duce


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 15:13
wow thats nuts! gotta be hard one throats at that speed

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 15:29
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/300%20WSM%20HOGS.wmv - http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/300%20WSM%20HOGS.wmv
Link to Richard`s video clip of him blasting some ground hogs with a 300 wsm, impressive to say the least.  I have his shooting DVDs some very impressive long shots on ground hogs.
 
Duce  Smile


-------------
Duce


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 16:28
Well when your shooting 125's as fast as 50's out of a 220 swift at about 5 grains over max and shooting them into one hole........who cares about throat life! 6 minutes at 600yds, the things a lazer for long range! With what the gun weighs recoil is probably pretty comfortable too.....

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 16:31
suppose that stretches the hell out of the cases?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 17:54
6MOA  at 600 yards = 36 inches.  That's quite some laser ya got there cowboy  :)


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 18:19
Getting back to the post.....you know RL powder can vary a lot from bottle to bottle....been a complaint for some time. Maybe you got a really slow batch....

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: December/31/2007 at 19:08
 I'm waiting on the man in the brown truck to bounce up my road with the Tubb'sBore polishing system. I'm going to do that and maybe try some varget. Then when it warms up i'll chrono some loads and let you gentlemen know how it turns out.
 I read on another forum that some one else was having some problems with his fps in a 300 wsm. They talked about the reloader powder being slower in different lots.
 RL 15 is about all i use in my 22-250's anymore. But i don't shoot paper with them to much just varmits & predator.
 Thank again for all your input.


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: January/01/2008 at 07:15
The reloader powders have a reputation for varying sometimes quite a lot from batch to batch. Some shooters won't use it for just this reason. I tend to buy several pounds with the same lot number when doing load work with it.....in case I hit a load I like and don't want to have anything effect it. Warmer weather will eliminate the cold factor but it still seems you are running a tad slow.

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: January/01/2008 at 19:11
 If his problem were a slow batch of powder, his bolt would probably not be sticking. I think there are other factors involved, that are causing some type of pressure spike.


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: January/01/2008 at 19:45
You could be right Ronk, it could be any number of things. Also the IMR powders hes using aren't known for much if any variation from batch to batch.

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: January/04/2008 at 11:30
 Hello again, 300 wsm update
 I did the tubbs bore finsh system ( the ol' woman had to come out to see what i was shootin at, set up in front of the shop shootin at the hillside. 50 shots total)
  I chronod 2 loads 165 gr remington psp, .040 off the lands   32 degrees
 67.5 gr imr 4831     2980 fps
 70 gr h4831 sc       2970 fps
 no pressure signs. both a little slow but room to work up.
A couple more questions if you don't mind? i'm learning quite a little here!
 The bolt is a little harder to open than most rifles after a dry fire. Are the military springs stronger than most?
 When they turned the bolt face for the magnum, it is not very smooth, lathe marks i guess.
is that ok, or should it be polished and trued? Could this be affecting the pressure? It has to be part of the sticky bolt towards max? there are scratch marks on the brass.
 
 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/04/2008 at 11:53
you can get it blue printed and it will help with accuracy

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: January/05/2008 at 15:20
 
 The first thing to look for when a bolt is difficult to open when dry-firing, is the cocking cam surface in the bolt body.  This is the angled cut at the bottom rear of the bolt on your Mauser. As you rotate the bolt handle upward to begin to cycle the action, this angled surface cams the striker and firing pin assembly rearward to cock them. It must be glass- smooth and lightly greased to function smoothly working against that strong Mauser mainspring.
 Also be sure to check the rear surfaces of your bolt lugs for any galling or roughness, and apply a dab of grease to them as well.
 I doubt the bolt face is giving you pressure problems unless it is REALLY fubared.
As pyro suggested, getting a good gunsmith to blueprint the receiver would possibly help accuracy, but it can be quite costly.


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/05/2008 at 15:33
Good advice from Ronk
Density altitude make a big difference in bullet speed the lower the altitude number the more the solid air will slow you bullet. The standard is sea level at 59 degrees if want to know the density altitude where you are call your local airport an they can usually tell you with no problem or go here http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm - http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm
 
This can make so much difference you will not belive it when you start useing it, at high altitude on hot days your shots will go a lot faster and farther.
Good shooting & good luck on your bedding project
 
Duce Big%20Smile  Yippee
 


-------------
Duce


Posted By: OLRVRAT
Date Posted: January/05/2008 at 20:32
 Thanks. I don't have much money in this rifle but i don't want to put much in it either.
  It shoots groups under an inch. I'll keep playing with it see what i can come up with, even if it's only a little better than an 06 it has less recoil than the o6 i have so that's one good thing. As long as it's safe is the main thing. I have too many huntin rifles anyway  so it's just going to be put in the safe and taken out once in awhile. But i'm learnin alot more about rifles & reloading than i knew. And i been at this awhile.So i would like to thank you gentlemen one more time for all your advice and i hope all the new people reading this realize you can always learn something and there's lots of knowledge to be gained here!!!
  Thanks again


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: January/05/2008 at 23:16
 
 I'll say this with the disclaimer that I don't have any way to know for certain, but I have a sneaking suspicion that your pressures are not as high as you think they are, thus neither are your velocity readings, nor is the recoil.  The only problem you mentioned in your opening post was a sticky bolt lift, which you later mention also occurs when DRY-FIRING. No mention of loose or cratered primers, excess or unusual muzzle blast or recoil, nor erratic accuracy. In fact, accuracy is very good. I'm NOT going to tell you that you may have room to spare, but I think it MAY be possible.
 



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