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270 WSM -vs- 270 WTHBY

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Topic: 270 WSM -vs- 270 WTHBY
Posted By: SSvalhalla
Subject: 270 WSM -vs- 270 WTHBY
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 14:46

Any preferences?  I have decided to get a Weatherby SUB MOA SS.  I like the .270 caliber and can't see much difference in ballistics from a WSM versus a Weatherby in this caliber.  Other than the famed name and slightly higher cost of ammunition, are there any differences?  Will the recoil be the same? 




Replies:
Posted By: jowens
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 16:53

Here's the ballistics of both.

.270 WSM (150 Sp at 3150)
.270 Wby. Mag. (150 Sp at 3245)
 
The recoil of both is going to be basically the same. The weatherby may have a bit more recoil, but probably nothing noticeable.
 
Pro's and Con's of both.
 
.270WSM
Pro's: Short Action, cheaper ammo
Con's: Minor lose in FPS
 
.270 Weatherby Mag
Pro's: Shoots a bit faster
Con's: Slightly more recoil, long action, expensive ammo
 
So basically it all boils down to whether you want a long action or a short action rifle, and if you are willing to pay a bit more for ammo from Weatherby.
 
Good luck and let us know what you choose.


Posted By: flyspy1
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 17:27
I think I hear pyro lurking somewhere...  He'll definitely give you some insight into this one...


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 18:15
I like the 270wsm, I believe its a good choice. Better and cheaper brass available and a non-belted case. I prefer non-belted's and like the slightly shorter, slightly lighter, slightly more rigid, short actions for hunting rifles. A game animal will never know the difference which caliber is used. I also for my own reasons don't care for the freebore in weatherby calibers. I like to be able to tune back and forth off the lands when reloading. A vote for the 270wsm.

     Focus


-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 18:21
Pyro!!! We need you here buddy!!!

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: craSSh
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 18:41
I have a 270wsm and a 300win mag ... I prefer the short action.  So my vote goes to the wsm.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 19:07
the wby is the way to go, not only do you gain fps and ft lbs of energy, but you have a case that doesnt have that sharp shoulder that the wsm cases all have, i have a 300wsm and i cannot wait to get rid of it, i have a 300 win mag also and i absolutly wouldnt trade it for the world! my wifes cousin has a 270 wsm in an aboltII and he seems to think its ok, if you really want a wsm i would tell you to go with the 7wsm, if you reload the 7mm will give you a lot more choices in bullet weights to play with than the .277 will. im not a a fan of the 270 family but if i had a gun to my head and was told to buy a 270 now i would buy the weatherby

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 19:28
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the wby is the way to go, not only do you gain fps and ft lbs of energy, but you have a case that doesnt have that sharp shoulder that the wsm cases all have, i have a 300wsm and i cannot wait to get rid of it...
 
Pyro, I thought you were considering selling your .300WSM solely because of recoil, not because of any issues with the WSM case, and that you said you wish you could keep it because it shoots well.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 19:34
i said the 300wsm has a recoil issue i never  said any of the other wsm kick, and honestly i havent shot any of the other wsm's but if its anything like its standard length counter parts it works like this .270 win kicks a bit the 7mm rem mag kicks a little more the 300win mag kicks a little bit more yet so i would assume starting at the .270wsm and working my way up the recoil gets worse as you get bigger. when i mentioned the sharp shoulder i was adding a possible negative factor for the wsm i myself havent had any feeding issues with my wsm but i have heard from some people i know that they have, and its mostly been with the .270wsm and all of the wssm's. i am selling my 300 solely based on recoil cause i am a whimp, so what i'll admit i dont like that much recoil, so what do i do, buy a smaller gun the .264 win mag will be a nice fit for me i think

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 19:48
BTW -- if I were trying to decide between those two chamberings, I'd steer away from .270 altogether and go with 7WSM, 7Rem, 7Wby, or some other "big 7."  Keep in mind, if you have your heart set on the Weatherby Sub MOA SS Vanguard, unless something has recently changed, it isn't available in .270 Wby (though it is available in .270WSM).  It isn't available in 7WSM either, but I was speaking of caliber choice, irrespective of rifles. 
 
In the same bullet weights, 7mm will give identical performance as .277" with the same case capacity, plus offering the added versatility of being able to handle heavier bullets and greater bullet selection in general.  Under no circumstances would I ever choose any .270 caliber round over any equivalent 7mm caliber round.  The 7's are just plain more versatile.  The only disadvantage is when considering the 7WSM vs. .270WSM in terms of factory ammo availability and factory rifle chamberings.  For some reason, 7WSM never caught on like the other WSMs, but there are no shortage of rifles chambered in most all the other 7 mags, and if you find a suitable rifle chambered in 7WSM, ammo availability is a non-issue if you reload.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 19:53
6.5 will step it up even more something magical about the 6.5's sectional density and ballistic coeffiecient's are so high its sick

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 20:02
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i said the 300wsm has a recoil issue i never  said any of the other wsm kick, and honestly i havent shot any of the other wsm's but if its anything like its standard length counter parts it works like this .270 win kicks a bit the 7mm rem mag kicks a little more the 300win mag kicks a little bit more yet so i would assume starting at the .270wsm and working my way up the recoil gets worse as you get bigger.
 
I wasn't inferring that you did say that.  The wording of your post above sounded like you were saying the sharp shoulder of the WSM case was one of the reasons why you "couldn't wait to get rid of" your .300WSM.  It just sounded like there was another issue besides recoil with your .300WSM that made you consider selling it.  I'm not sure what you mean by the sharp shoulder being an issue with all WSMs, as the shoulder is not the issue with WSM feeding.  In some rifles, the short, fat geometry of the case can create somewhat of a feeding problem due to the severe angle a short case must travel from the magazine up the feed ramp into the chamber, combined with the large case diameter.  This is mainly a problem with short actions originally chambered for .308 family cartridges that were converted over to a WSM, though.  In the thread where you were discussing the possibility of getting rid of your .300WSM, you said you really didn't want to get rid of it because it shoots well, and I just thought by your post above that there was a secondary issue that made you go from reluctantly wanting to sell it to "can't wait to sell it."


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 20:09
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

6.5 will step it up even more something magical about the 6.5's sectional density and ballistic coeffiecient's are so high its sick
 
True, but 7mm is no slouch in terms of SD and BC depending on the bullet choice, plus, just like the comparison with .277", it offers greater overall versatility than the 6.5s, not only in terms of bullet selection and being able to handle heavier bullets, but also in case choices as well, which is probably second only to .30 caliber.
 
6.5 is a very interesting, efficient caliber.  I'm a big fan of the .260 and 6.5-.284.  7 just offers more chambering options, more bullets to choose from, and more factory rifles chambered for it.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 20:12
you would be correct as usual ted i was also using some marketing hype to try and sway him away from a .270wsm with my comments and actually i can go from a 85-160gr bullets in the 6.5's not bad of course its not as broad as the .308's

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 20:27
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

...i was also using some marketing hype to try and sway him away from a .270wsm with my comments
 
I hear ya bro.  I'm not as adamantly against .277" dia bullets as you are, but I too believe the caliber is severely lacking compared to its closest siblings.  Go up only 0.007" in bullet dia to the 7mm's and you have infinitely better options in bullets, cases, and rifles with at least equal, and in most cases, better overall performance when comparing similar case capacity.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/05/2007 at 20:30
absolutely you know how i am ted i have a 6.5 a 7 and  .308 in the house im no stranger to the 7mm and .308's, so when you gonna send me a check for my 300wsm??

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/06/2007 at 06:51
The 270wsm and 300wsm will be around long after the rest of the batch is gone. Given the choice posted in the opening thread I will still say get the 270wsm between your two choices. Ballistic difference between the two are a wash as far as game is concerned and the cost for brass will favor the wsm.

  Focus


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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: SSvalhalla
Date Posted: December/06/2007 at 16:38
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

BTW -- if I were trying to decide between those two chamberings, I'd steer away from .270 altogether and go with 7WSM, 7Rem, 7Wby, or some other "big 7."  Keep in mind, if you have your heart set on the Weatherby Sub MOA SS Vanguard, unless something has recently changed, it isn't available in .270 Wby (though it is available in .270WSM).  It isn't available in 7WSM either, but I was speaking of caliber choice, irrespective of rifles. 
 
In the same bullet weights, 7mm will give identical performance as .277" with the same case capacity, plus offering the added versatility of being able to handle heavier bullets and greater bullet selection in general.  Under no circumstances would I ever choose any .270 caliber round over any equivalent 7mm caliber round.  The 7's are just plain more versatile.  The only disadvantage is when considering the 7WSM vs. .270WSM in terms of factory ammo availability and factory rifle chamberings.  For some reason, 7WSM never caught on like the other WSMs, but there are no shortage of rifles chambered in most all the other 7 mags, and if you find a suitable rifle chambered in 7WSM, ammo availability is a non-issue if you reload.
 
Yes, I just noticed that RifleDude, just got a new Weatherby 08 catalog and it is only offered in WSM.  I think at one time the SUB MOA was offered in both then again maybe I'm mistaken.  
 
I'm only hunting antelope and deer with this rifle and the 140 grain Nosler Accubond would have plenty of ft-lbs of energy for elk if desired, not that I plan on going elk hunting with this gun.  1620 ft-lbs of energy at 500 yards is more than any 30-06, 308, 280, and many of the 7mm-mag loads.  Heck, that is more than a few 300 Win. Mag loads. 
 
But back to the recoil:  It seems that I hear of more people complaining about recoil from the WSM family compared to their close relatives?  Maybe it's just the gun selection, I don't know. 
 
I like the 270 caliber for what it is used for:  Deer and Antelope.  If you want a coyote gun buy a 223, if you want an elk/moose gun by a 300 Wthby MAG.  I guess that is my opinion.  Hey, if I used one gun for every hunt, how could I ever talk the wife into letting me buy more beautiful rifles and scopes...that wouldn't be any fun at all.   


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/06/2007 at 17:13
I found the wsm's start to get your attention when you get above 150gr. I think the 270 or 7mm wsm's would be quite reasonable with a decent recoil pad and stock. I had a 300wsm that with 180's in a savage with a tupperware stock was downright nasty! I plan on getting a 270wsm and than rebarreling when the barrels shot out or if it doesn't live up to expectations for accuracy with a 6.5wsm barrel. I believe that would be a hummer for a short action......

   Focus


-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/06/2007 at 17:14
my 300 wsm and my 300 win are both abolts composite stocks with a blued finish and the wsm kicks way more, im not sure if the extra couple inches of barrel length really makes that much difference i can see that 3" of extra barrel takes that much kick out of the shot.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/06/2007 at 22:43
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

...so when you gonna send me a check for my 300wsm??
 
Well buddy, that all depends on what number needs to be written on said check to make you part with it!  I already have a 300WM, a 7WSM, two 7RMs, and a 338WM, so I really don't have a need for a 300WSM.  But, hey, everything's negotiable.  Send me a PM and we can discuss, but I highly doubt I'd be willing to pay anywhere near what you need to get for it.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/06/2007 at 23:21
Originally posted by SSvalhalla SSvalhalla wrote:

But back to the recoil:  It seems that I hear of more people complaining about recoil from the WSM family compared to their close relatives?  Maybe it's just the gun selection, I don't know. 
 
Given equal velocity, bullet weight, and rifle weight, there is no difference in the recoil generated by a WSM and a "standard" magnum in the same caliber, period.  That's not to say that some physical characteristic of the rifle itself isn't contributing to higher felt recoil.  Unless the rifle chambered in a WSM is considerably lighter (which in some cases, is possible with a shorter action and barrel) or the stock design and butt pad isn't optimal for the recoil level, there's no reason why a WSM chambered rifle should punish the shooter more than a rifle chambered in a ballistically similar long magnum.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, so a bullet with the same mass, traveling at the same velocity will always produce the same recoil impulse regardless of the shape of the case that launched it.
 
Originally posted by SSvalhalla SSvalhalla wrote:

I like the 270 caliber for what it is used for:  Deer and Antelope.  If you want a coyote gun buy a 223, if you want an elk/moose gun by a 300 Wthby MAG.  I guess that is my opinion.  Hey, if I used one gun for every hunt, how could I ever talk the wife into letting me buy more beautiful rifles and scopes...that wouldn't be any fun at all.   
 
I can certainly relate to any justification used for buying another rifle. Wink My comments on the .270 are in no way meant to say it doesn't work well for its intended use.  Far from it.  My only point is that since .270 (.277") and 7mm are so close to each other and cover the exact same niche, given equal case capacity and bullet weight, what one will do, the other will do equally as well...except that the 7mm is more versatile because of the broader range of bullet weights and designs available.  Given the much greater bullet selection in 7mm, I simply don't understand why someone would choose a .270 caliber chambering over an equivalent 7mm, unless the decision is based more on a particular rifle than the caliber it's chambered for.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/07/2007 at 07:54
ted i agree with most of what you said but i will add some food for thought, take the 30-06 family 25-06 .270 .280 and 30-06 load them all up with the same 50 grains of powder and put there normal bullets in the cases so say 117-130-150-165 you cant possibly tell me since they shoot different weights that the felt recoil doesnt change between them, i know you said given that all the factors are equal it wont matter, but when you change the bullet weights it will the 165 gr 30-06 will kick more than the 117gr 25-06 i know you know this, and in the wsm family its no different. i will run a recoil calc on your 7wsm i already put what my 300's was.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/07/2007 at 08:02
30lbs of mailto:recoil@%2017fps - recoil @ 17fps   in the 7wsm with a 150gr bullet with the same speed as the load i shoot out of my 300wsm which when i entered the exact numbers puts my 300wsm at 38lbs of recoil @ 19fps but the bullets are going the same speed. so bullet weight has a lot to do with felt recoil.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: December/07/2007 at 11:10
Svalhalla................................The real difference between the 270 WBY. and the WSM as far as hunting is concerned or its affect on game is,,,,ZIP, ZERO, NADA!!!! Either will do for your needs.........The minimal performance advantage that the 270 Wby. would have, would make absolutely no difference on your quarry! My personal preference in this case would be for the 270WSM!............Why? Shorter action, reduced rifle expense without buying the MK5, reduction in rifle weight, ammo will be lesser expensive, reloading expenses, such as powder due to the shorter WSM case should be somewhat less (less powder capacity for the WSM).......The entire concept behind the WSM`s was to produce a shorter but fatter cartridge, in lighter rifles, while maintaining about the same ballistic performance as the longer mags. The 270 WSM well exceeds the 270 Win. in performance and is close enough to the WBY. to not even really be concerned whatsoever!! WinkWinkWinkWink

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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/07/2007 at 11:43

Hi guys, recoil energy calculation also requires the mass of the powder charge also.

I agree that ballisically there is not much difference between the WSM and Wby .270's. The biggest difference is the guns they come in as already stated.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/07/2007 at 14:52
yeah i had to put in my powder weight in gr and my bullet weight in grains the fps at the muzzle and the weight of the rifle in lbs and then it gives the recoil in lbs as well as the velocity in fps that the energy is transfered??

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/07/2007 at 16:55
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

ted i agree with most of what you said but i will add some food for thought, take the 30-06 family 25-06 .270 .280 and 30-06 load them all up with the same 50 grains of powder and put there normal bullets in the cases so say 117-130-150-165 you cant possibly tell me since they shoot different weights that the felt recoil doesnt change between them, i know you said given that all the factors are equal it wont matter, but when you change the bullet weights it will the 165 gr 30-06 will kick more than the 117gr 25-06 i know you know this, and in the wsm family its no different. i will run a recoil calc on your 7wsm i already put what my 300's was.
 
But that's not at all what I was saying.  Obviously firing lighter bullets from the same capacity case will always produce less recoil.  I was responding to the statement that WSMs somehow kick more than other equivalent performance magnums and comparing the WSM's with their standard length belted magnum siblings firing the same weight bullets at the same velocity.  Firing a 180 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2950 from a 300WSM will generate exactly the same felt recoil as the same 180 grain bullet at the same 2950 MV fired from a .300WM, given 2 rifles of the same weight and stock design.  The point being, the idea that somehow WSM's kick more than any other magnum round of the same caliber producing essentially the same ballistic performance is false, as the laws of physics dictate they would be the same.  There might be a very tiny difference in recoil impulse when the powder charge weight is taken into consideration, but it would be pretty much negligible and it would actually favor the WSM.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/07/2007 at 17:54
ted i know what your saying and i dont disagree with you on paper, but from my own personal experience i can tell you that the wsm's produce more felt recoil in the 300's i just did the calcs on felt recoil for my 2 300's and my win mag only weighs .9 lbs more than my wsm and yet the felt recoil is 2 lbs less, so explain to me how 4 lbs difference feels a lot more like 10-15lbs cause i dont understand it at all, do i have a freak of nature between one of these 2 300's or what cause i understand what you say and any given sunday its 100% right not only because its coming from you but also because its the cold hard facts, but come on .9 of a # cant make that much difference and espcially since i need 6 more grains of powder in my win mag to equal the fps i get in my wsm and still have less felt recoil out of two guns with identical composite stocks, this is a mystery to me.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 21:07
i ran some more recoil calcs tonight and i almost cried, did you know that a maxed out 30-378wby kicks harder with a full load 180gr bullet than a .458win mag fully loaded with a 500gr bullet does! it was like 73lbs to 68lbs ouch!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/10/2007 at 06:34
Pyro,
Can't explain why you feel a big difference in recoil between your two .300's out of essentially identical rifles.  Could it be possible you simply shoot your .300WM less than you did your .300WSM, since you spent alot of bench time with the WSM not too long ago working up loads?  Therefore, you don't remember the Win Mag kicking as much as the WSM?  I don't think .9 lbs weight difference is insignificant at all!  That's almost a pound difference in the two rifles!  Keep in mind you're dealing with FELT recoil instead of some number calculation on paper, and you're not likely to perceive recoil differences directly linear to calculated numbers.  You may already be on the edge of your comfort threshold with the .300 Win Mag already, so the seemingly small difference in weight causes just enough increase in recoil with the .300WSM that your mind makes you think it's a huge difference when it really isn't.  One thing's for certain, though -- a bullet of a given weight propelled at a given velocity will generate a given amount of recoil regardless of what case it was launched from.
 
I'm surprised by your results on the 30-378 / 180 vs. .458 WM / 500 recoil calcs.  I'll run the numbers and see if I come up with the same results.
 
I'm sure Svalhalla, asking for advice on 270WSM vs. 270 Wby, tuned out of this discussion a long time ago.  We probably should have started another thread on recoil rather than hijack his thread.
 
Svalhalla, I apologize for my part in steering this discussion off-topic a little.  There is nothing wrong with either .270 from a performance standpoint, and really, between the two, it's essentially a wash -- what one will do the other will do, though the 270 Wby shoots a little flatter.  I do honestly believe that if you're considering a magnum class .270 that you should give serious thought to one of the 7 mags, since, again, it basically duplicates or exceeds the .270 mags in performance with negligible recoil difference, plus offers the much better bullet selection and factory ammo selection (except for the 7WSM).


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/10/2007 at 06:48
well ted i could say that yeah i havent spent any time with the 300win in a while, but i have a fail safe if you remember my dad has that rifle and recoil doenst bother him at all, and he even says the wsm is kicking sob, so no its not me
with the recoil i kinda used high end numbers too , the calc i used of course wanted bullet weight  weight of gun vel of bullet i used a rem 700 custom for the big boys 9lbs and i just guessed on the 30-378 7 lbs sounded good


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: SSvalhalla
Date Posted: December/10/2007 at 09:37
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Pyro,
 
 
I'm sure Svalhalla, asking for advice on 270WSM vs. 270 Wby, tuned out of this discussion a long time ago.  We probably should have started another thread on recoil rather than hijack his thread.
 
Svalhalla, I apologize for my part in steering this discussion off-topic a little.  There is nothing wrong with either .270 from a performance standpoint, and really, between the two, it's essentially a wash -- what one will do the other will do, though the 270 Wby shoots a little flatter.  I do honestly believe that if you're considering a magnum class .270 that you should give serious thought to one of the 7 mags, since, again, it basically duplicates or exceeds the .270 mags in performance with negligible recoil difference, plus offers the much better bullet selection and factory ammo selection (except for the 7WSM).
 
It don't bother me a bit, there is nothing to be sorry for...I kind of enjoy reading this discussion. 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/10/2007 at 09:43
i guess we are kinda hijacking your thread in a way but also at the same time i feel we are giving a bit of insight to the recoil levels as well so i guess we are sorta on topic, i still agree with ted that a 7mm mag wby win or wsm would be a better choice, but recoil will only go up as you get a bigger gun!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: TheDrakeTaker
Date Posted: December/20/2007 at 11:42
pyro, dont neglect the fact that the relationship between a reduction in rifle weight and felt recoil is not a linear one.  If it was then the felt recoil would not increase greatly with a reduction in weight.  I do not know what the exact exponential or polynomial fit is, it varies with several factors.  .9 lbs difference in the weight will not translate to a .9 difference in the felt recoil.  .9lbs is a substantial weight reduction as you can tell from your shoulder screaming at you.  I have a Tikka T3 lite win 300 wm and a friend of mine has the same rifle in a 300 wsm.  The difference in weight is only 3 ounces, but you can tell a difference in the recoil because of the weight difference.  Hard to believe but it's true.  

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Robert


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/20/2007 at 11:58
felt recoil, recoil in ft/lbs, and recoil velocity or g forces are the same in the sense that it is the calculas derivative of the other, ft/lbs can be thought of as the final effect, but the time frame over which it is delivered (or the derivative) is the "kick" factor. this recoil impulse, is best explained using the same wt. shotgun and load in a breakopen vs. say an 1100. both same wt, and contour, the absorption of the recoil of the energy by the spring mechanism doesn't change the moment of inertia but spreads it over a longer time frame. .9 lb is almost a decrease in the moment by a factor of 10% which substantial.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/20/2007 at 12:05
one thing you must add back into the discussion is the mass of the powder charge, in grs. If one shoots 10 gr more powder, that is the very same thing as going from a 140 gr to 150 gr bullet.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/20/2007 at 12:47
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

one thing you must add back into the discussion is the mass of the powder charge, in grs. If one shoots 10 gr more powder, that is the very same thing as going from a 140 gr to 150 gr bullet.
which i some what have i shoot the same 180gr bullet out of both rifles and the 300win mag uses more powder than the 300wsm does by about 7gr, granted they arent the same powders, one uses r-19 the other uses imr4831


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 45.308
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 12:31
Originally posted by Focus Focus wrote:

I prefer non-belted's and like the slightly shorter, slightly lighter, slightly more rigid, short actions for hunting rifles. A game animal will never know the difference which caliber is used. 
     Focus
 
Wow, thats common sense, preach it brother! Excellent
 
 


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 12:48
Well the long action long barrel guys come along and beat me with tire irons every once and a while.....I get away however, I can run faster with the lighter gun :>)

Focus

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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 13:37
I'm with you, Focus!Thunbs%20Up

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 13:47
you guys! come on people like me are a small minority, im sure that most people in the world dont like the 26" barrels on there rifles either!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 13:48
You Kidding I love a 26" barrel On some chamberings it makes sense.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 13:51
like say a .264win mag?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 13:52
Slower burn rate on the charge right?

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 13:55
i have read that the .264 gets the best performance if its shooting a 26" or longer barrel

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 14:03
If you're using a slower burning powder usually you will gain some benfit from having a longer barrel. That is of course dependent upon the cartridge as well, but yeah I believe that chambering would benefit as does the 300 WM, and some others.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 14:04
yeah and the slower the powder you use the more of it you can use and the less pressure and higher velocity you will get and with that longer barrel you can stabilize your bullet better

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 14:05
of course when you dont shoot further than say 200yds probably doesnt matter if its 22" or 30"

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 14:15
That's the truth there, unless you're hunting bullet holes

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 14:55
Be berry berry quiet.........I'm hunting those berry elusive bullet holes......

Focus

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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:07
small ones are very elusive and hard to come by right?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:19
They are berry smart and hard to find........and a lot harder to hit when you do....

    Focus

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I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:21
best use a very big gun like a 460wby

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:33
Heck I spend a lot of time chasing bullet holes. I think it keeps the bullet and powder suppliers happy. Its funny as a gun that shoots MOA is all any of us ever need for hunting but that last inth of accuracy can really get to be an obsession. I don't need to shoot bugholes....but I sure like to.

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:36
Oh that is so true. don't need to, just want to.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:38
back to the topic at hand do you think the wsm will out live the 270wby?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:46
That's a good question. I guess it's gonna depend on the buying publics demand. Time will tell all I suppose.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 15:47
most wbys have a long barrel on them in wby calibers and i cant say that either are hot calibers

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 16:13
I think from all indications the 270 and 300wsm's will be around for some time as evidenced by new brass becoming available and the number of rifles they are being chambered in. The two filled a void for the short action lovers and supplied a viable, powerful choice for hunting. The 7mm wsm just hasn't really done much and seems to be slipping in chamberings. Perhaps there are so many 7mm options out there that the interest is just not there. I believe the remington short mag offerings will fade out and be gone at some point in the future. The fact that remington is offering factory ammo for the wsm's seems to support this assumption.

What can you say about weatherbys? They will always have a loyal following and will always be popular. I wouldn't expect the 270 weatherby to disappear ever.

I think there is room for both 270 caliber offerings and both appear to be selling fine. If I ever buy a short mag it will be in the 270wsm caliber. With good bullets it would be as fine a long range big game rifle as you could want IMHO.

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/21/2007 at 16:16
yeah remington missed the boat by doing there own short mag imo, they should have waited and did the wsm's in the m700!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 45.308
Date Posted: December/22/2007 at 13:09
Originally posted by Focus Focus wrote:



What can you say about weatherbys? They will always have a loyal following and will always be popular. I wouldn't expect the 270 weatherby to disappear ever.

Focus
 
I owned this t shirt for quite sometime until I learned. I have owned and used 3 Wby over 35 years; 7mm, 300, 340. I bought into this high velocity round killing power until I realized my little ole 308 killed a 1300 pound on the hoof moose just as dead as my 340Wby with less recoil and expense out to 200-225 yards. If bullwinkle jumps at bullet impact, walks about 3 steps and fells or stands there at bullet impact, starts a trott, stumbles and crashed to earth in 10-15 yards, or fells at bullet impact, which is moose is more dead?
 
Go to our range for sight-in day and watch the groups from those hard kicking mags and the stories of moose soaking up 5 rounds of 338 and its easy to understand how myths get started.
 
Wbys are very popular here; 300 and 340, and the 378 cased are growing as are the groupings.
 
270 of anything is not in my vocabulary, go up to a 7mm/280 for better BC / SD and bullet selection. Not a big fan of 308 either but its what I use now until I can get it rebarreled to my fav, 338.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/22/2007 at 16:07
hmm i like this guy! no .270 for him!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: December/28/2007 at 18:04
SSvalhalla, I just bought a SS Sub-Moa in .270 WSM this year and topped it off with a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14 Rapid-z scope. I think you will be very happy with this gun and the wsm, if thats what you choose. It is a great combination for wide open South Dakota deer. Mine likes Winchester power points, but will not shoot 130gr. ballistic tips for some reason. Guess I'll have to keep trying other loads. but it shoots 1/2 in. groups all day long with soft points. Good luck with your choice

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/28/2007 at 19:05
Well to answer you 45308, the 270 weatherby has been around since 1948 and shows no sign of being in danger of disappearing anytime soon. I would go so far as to say that none of the three current 270 calibers are doing any fading out at this point. The 270wsm is the second best selling short mag behind the 300wsm. Some may not like the 27 caliber rifles and may prefer the 7mm instead but those 27's aren't going anyplace at this point. In my state the 270 has come in second behind the 30-06 for the last 8 years in deer hunting popularity, thats ahead of all 7mm's, the 308, and any big bore or lever action cartridge. Love em' or hate em' they're here to stay as well as old Roy's creations. Myself I could real easy see a 270wsm in my future, lot of horsepower for a short action man....

   Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: martin3175
Date Posted: December/29/2007 at 09:55

Both rounds are excellent choices-- Dollar wise, a premium WSM will run you real close to the cost of a wby ..not a decider there, plus availability will be about the same. Long action vs short action argument has its virtues. One could save a little LOA with the short action . The Wby travels a bit faster. etc. etc. etc.  For me, its a Weatherby thing,,,,I'd buy the Weatherby and wouldn't look back.

 
notice the avatar


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/29/2007 at 12:34
I like martin3175.Smile

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: SSvalhalla
Date Posted: January/23/2008 at 22:35
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

SSvalhalla, I just bought a SS Sub-Moa in .270 WSM this year and topped it off with a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14 Rapid-z scope. I think you will be very happy with this gun and the wsm, if thats what you choose. It is a great combination for wide open South Dakota deer. Mine likes Winchester power points, but will not shoot 130gr. ballistic tips for some reason. Guess I'll have to keep trying other loads. but it shoots 1/2 in. groups all day long with soft points. Good luck with your choice
 
I ended up buying the same gun, 270WSM weatherby vanguard sub-moa SS.  Only difference, I put on a Zeiss 3-9x40mm Rapid Z 600.  I havent got to shoot it yet...too cold, hard to sit at the range when its zero with a 15mph wind.  Did you do anything special to break in the barrel?  I read so many opinions on breaking in a new barrels.  I think once I get to shoot it, I'm going to try the shoot one and clean method for 10 shots.  It seems I hear a lot of riflesmiths use this approach????  I was looking at going with the 140 Nosler Accubond.  Have to see how it likes my barrel. 



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