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Tactical Shooting FAQs

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Tactical Scopes
Forum Description: Police and military tools of the trade
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8651
Printed Date: October/20/2017 at 05:34


Topic: Tactical Shooting FAQs
Posted By: cheaptrick
Subject: Tactical Shooting FAQs
Date Posted: November/25/2007 at 15:41

This thread was graciously made available by "Low Light" over at Sniper's Hide.

 

I contacted the the original poster, "JT505th" who compiled this info, via PM and asked if I could post it over here for the members and he said yes and got approval from LL and SH .

Thanks Low Light and Jim.

 

There's more topics in here than just tactical optics. There's MILES of ground thats covered in this link, so look through it and enjoy.    

 

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=237232#Post237232 - http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat &Number=237232#Post237232



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.



Replies:
Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: November/25/2007 at 15:47
Tons of good info, thanks


Posted By: JT505th
Date Posted: November/25/2007 at 16:51

cheaptrick,

Thanks for posting the link. The information is excellent. I hope it helps the members here as much as it helped me. I hope you 'tack' this thread so it stays on top for the new shooters.

 

Thanks again,

Jim 



Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: November/25/2007 at 16:54
Thank you, Sir!!

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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/25/2007 at 20:14
Wonderful CT MUCHAS GRACIAS BRO.

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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Graysteel
Date Posted: November/25/2007 at 22:23

I looked over the threads myself. I would suggest taking some of them with a grain of salt, especially those related to military such as: Expectations of Military Snipers (first round hits)

The thread is mostly conjecture and to be honest conflicts some with my experience.

Expectations are entirely situational. The wind, weather, quality of your ranging references, etc. There is no standard expectation, but most teams can make a good estimate of their chances when eyes on.

As an example, when I had good data and good conditions I considered 6" circle hit at 600 meters trivial. However, trying to get a bead on someone while laying in-between two wide open SAWs proved to be impossible. It is always entirely, environmentally dependent. Experience teaches you what you can and can't do, but there isn't any cart of expectations.



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http://www.whitesounddefense.com/pages/Tech-Articles.html - http://www.whitesounddefense.com/pages/Tech-Articles.html


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: November/26/2007 at 04:00

Duly noted, Graysteel. Thanks for your input. 

 

 



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Mithran
Date Posted: November/26/2007 at 16:57
Hey Cheap you got yourself a sticky post now.

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Fight Smarter
Not Harder


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: November/26/2007 at 18:01
Originally posted by Mithran Mithran wrote:

Hey Cheap you got yourself a sticky post now.
 
Yep!!
But unlike you, I had to "steal" mine......Embarrassed


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/26/2007 at 18:14
It don't matter it takes time and thought either way. WTG Mark Thumbs%20Up Clap

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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Mithran
Date Posted: November/27/2007 at 02:40

Yeah but YOU took the initiative and asked LL to post it here.  It's another place to get all this great info posted.



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Fight Smarter
Not Harder


Posted By: Tennessean
Date Posted: November/30/2007 at 09:51
cheaptrick,
 
Wanted to add my thanks for posting the link.  As someone who hasn't had the advantage of having an experienced shooter to guide them through the learning process, it has been very informative to read.  As with anything else you read online, I understand the need to take things with a grain of salt, at least until you know who you're dealing with.  I can already see where I've been doing several things wrong, or where I could improve.  Until now, I've been able to consistently shoot ~1" groups @ 100 yards with the Savage I purchased this summer, but I've never known proper shooting techniques.  I'm anxious now to get LOTS of practice with some of the things I learned.  I never even thought about things like breathing and trigger finger placement.  It'll be interesting to see how much I can improve.
 
Thanks again. 


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: December/03/2007 at 17:31
Tenn your more than welcome, of course. I don't really deserve any credit, I just ran across what JT505th compiled for them over at SH and ran with it.
 
Not to say that ALL you or any one else reads on these threads is the Alpha and Omega of tactical shooting, but there's some real deal shooters on SH and I have learned a lot over there and am still learning. I have a long way to go.
 
Low Light, Mike (Tactical) Miller, Rob01, and many, many more members over there are well versed on tactical shooting and have a lot of information to share. I appreciate them making it available.
 
Appreciate your post!
 
 


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: ericsrussell
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 13:02
Great Source of info! And not trying to flame anyone but Military snipers are expected to make those shots 6inches at 600 yards.... in the prone is a cakewalk..... Their rifles are made for it. And with the training they recieve 600 should be no prob and I know at USMC Sniper schools your expected to make shots like that when your qualing for Known Distance. So for your basic shooter..... not the most practical...... for and expert that lives for the shot...... he could do it all day long.
Eric


Posted By: medic52
Date Posted: January/14/2008 at 17:53

Thanks Cheaptrick for getting the info, makes for interesting reading and so does some of the comments on their site...................



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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." G.K. Chesterton


Posted By: mercenary1947
Date Posted: April/22/2008 at 13:23
 Yes Trick ... you do deserve a pat on the back and a beer .... Cheers  alot of people would have never went to the trouble and posted it here with a sticky .

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One Shot One Kill .... *S.O.F * Head Shots Only
               SWFAM


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/20/2008 at 13:38
Good Info  ThanksWink

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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 18:14
Thanks CT! Lots of good info.

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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: December/20/2008 at 12:04
Thanks. Lots of good info.


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: December/24/2008 at 19:21
Thanks for the good info Mark
 
Duce Big Grin


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Duce


Posted By: Sandhillbilly
Date Posted: February/13/2009 at 08:17
Great info great post
 
Scott


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Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets. Quote George S Patton


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/24/2009 at 20:43
Great link CT, thanks for taking the time and making the effort to share it!!! Please let the guys over at Sniper's hide that their willingness to share  is appreciated immensely!

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: moosetrax
Date Posted: February/24/2009 at 23:06
There is no standard "expectation" of a sniper. At least not Army. The FM 23-10 doesn't even mention it. 6" at 600 isn't even close. That is what the marines require for a given rifle to be classified as a "sniper rifle". It has to be sub MOA. The armys ammunition specs are actually over 2 MOA with a requirement for the M118 being 12" at 550 Meters. Hardly 6" at 600. Although, the weapons and ammunition are capeable of better, there still is no published expectation... especially not between two SAWs

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Mom said if I didn't have anything nice to say, don't say anything... I never did listen well.


Posted By: Oculus Capitalis
Date Posted: March/28/2009 at 18:15
Now and then I pull on the cammies (no ghillie), and play Capt'n Tactikewl . . . But I ain't no sniper. I got the Army manual on sniper training. It's about recon and serveillance, not shooting!

I'm a bench bum, and feel good about it. :D

First thing I did on my rifle is remove the bipod. We have a Caldwell Rock for all that!


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Μολὼν λάβε


Posted By: moosetrax
Date Posted: March/28/2009 at 18:53
Originally posted by Oculus Capitalis Oculus Capitalis wrote:

I got the Army manual on sniper training. It's about recon and serveillance, not shooting
 
 
Apperently you must have overlooked chapter 3. The marksmanship chapter. or maybe you didn't actually have the sniper manual. Does it say FM 23-10 or "sniper training for dummies"


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Mom said if I didn't have anything nice to say, don't say anything... I never did listen well.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: March/28/2009 at 22:36
FM23-10 Chapter 3 is basic and high level instruction.  While there certainly is useful information there, it is NOT designed for advanced instruction of an experienced shooter.  It provides the groundwork for taking a beginning to fair shooter and assisting him in developing a set of tools he can use and improve to become a sniper.  However, reading Chapter 3 won't make you a sniper or even a good shooter.  Classroom and field instruction that support and build upon the entire manual are what makes/gives it continuing value.  One can read 23-10 all day every day and won't be a sniper after a LONG time.

Moosetrax, you might want to reconsider your comments.  Not very productive.  


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: moosetrax
Date Posted: March/29/2009 at 07:34
The quote was that the sniper manual is all about recon and surveillance and nothing about shooting which couldn't be further from the truth. A pet peave of mine is people who think they know what it in a book they never read. Apperently, kickboxer, you have read the book, or at least most of it. I spent countless hours in the field reading that manual and applying it to everything from range qualification to deer hunting. But I'm no sniper. Quantico and the Ft Benning Sniper scool make you a sniper. As for not productive, how productive is calling a book containing everything from camo and concealment, to range cards and ballistics, a "recon and surveillance book"

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Mom said if I didn't have anything nice to say, don't say anything... I never did listen well.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: March/29/2009 at 15:58
Trax, there are 9 chapters and 2 appendices.  One of them is on marksmanship.  I agree about people who think they know what is in a book, sometimes even if they have read it.  The marksmanship part is just about the mechanics.  Getting to where the mechanics can be applied is far more difficult. 
I don't have a problem with questioning the comments, just the manner.  Better ways to make your point.  Lighten up.  Read OT Rule 2.  


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: moosetrax
Date Posted: March/29/2009 at 16:55
Duly noted sir, duly noted

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Mom said if I didn't have anything nice to say, don't say anything... I never did listen well.


Posted By: Oculus Capitalis
Date Posted: April/18/2009 at 23:28
It says "TC 23-14, June 1989  -- Sniper Training & Employment. US Dept. of the Army."

My point is that those who think "sniper" is about long-range, precision shooting will find that what the manual and the job entail is a lot of reconaissance, and surveillance. It's not about being a precision shooter. It's about being a sneaky bastard. Being a sneaky bastard who can shoot works too.






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Μολὼν λάβε


Posted By: moosetrax
Date Posted: April/19/2009 at 06:50
Originally posted by Oculus Capitalis Oculus Capitalis wrote:

It says "TC 23-14, June 1989  -- Sniper Training & Employment. US Dept. of the Army."

My point is that those who think "sniper" is about long-range, precision shooting will find that what the manual and the job entail is a lot of reconaissance, and surveillance. It's not about being a precision shooter. It's about being a sneaky bastard. Being a sneaky bastard who can shoot works too.




 
It's not about being a precision shooter???? You might have misread something there. Granted, snipers do a lot of recon and things of that nature, but if it's not about precision shooting, why do they carry weapons that can make 1000 meter shots. Sit down and talk to a sniper sometime. I have. They can tell you what they do.
 
from the army training site
 

The sniper has special abilities, training, and equipment. His job is to deliver discriminatory, highly accurate rifle fire against enemy targets that cannot be engaged successfully by the regular rifleman because of range, size, location, fleeting nature, or visibility. Sniping requires the development of basic infantry skills to a high degree of perfection. A sniper's training incorporates a wide variety of subjects designed to increase his value as a force multiplier and to ensure his survival on the Battlefield. The art of sniping requires learning and repetitiously practicing these skills until mastered. A sniper must be highly trained in long range rifle marksmanship and field craft skills to ensure maximum effective engagements with minimum risk.

A lot of people have the misconception that to be a good sniper, you have to be a good shooter. Shooting is only 20 percent of the course at the Army Sniper School. It takes a patient person, a disciplined person, a person who is used to working alone. In addition to marksmanship skills, the school instructs on detecting and stalking a target, and estimating the range of a target. The course also covers concealment and camouflage, as well as observation exercises.



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Mom said if I didn't have anything nice to say, don't say anything... I never did listen well.


Posted By: nova88
Date Posted: August/17/2009 at 16:35
some good info for sure thanks for posting that link


Posted By: robb01
Date Posted: February/09/2010 at 13:36
yes, thanks

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Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: August/10/2010 at 19:06
Thanks for resurrecting this post,lot of great info.

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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: August/11/2010 at 08:44
Welcome to OT robb01....

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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: 338LAPUASLAP
Date Posted: May/02/2011 at 17:13
Just found this post somehow...  What a laughable conversation...

Decent Info in the first post the rest is well um a interesting...


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No one


Posted By: atomiclab
Date Posted: December/05/2011 at 20:12
awesome link.
I have a lot more reading to do now.



Posted By: RotoReuter_DM
Date Posted: December/13/2011 at 16:05
This will keep me busy on Christmas days off!!! Thank You

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Old Mil ftw


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: December/13/2011 at 16:21
What ever happened to Mithran? He hasn't been here for a couple of years now.

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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/13/2011 at 18:44
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

What ever happened to Mithran? He hasn't been here for a couple of years now.

....and several others...SVD666(wink wink), acenturian, anthony, .................all good memories for me


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Doug


Posted By: Captiva
Date Posted: April/10/2015 at 14:31
Any idea where the referenced post on Sniper's Hide went to?  Link takes you to the home page now...

http://opticstalk.com/tactical-shooting-faqs_topic8651.html#top - http://opticstalk.com/tactical-shooting-faqs_topic8651.html#top


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/10/2015 at 15:01
The old site is now archived at www.snipershide.info, but it isn't real user friendly, or fast.

It'll be somewhere in there.


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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Posted By: Recondo84
Date Posted: May/11/2015 at 20:35
What a sniper does also depends on the mission. If it's a war time mission shooting would more than likely be on the agenda. But a peace time mission probably not. I held down my units sniper slot for almost two years. So me being the "sniper" every time our unit did any training my role was  exclusively that of recon and or forward observer.

In Honduras during my time holding down the slot I worked in a two man team doing nothing but recon work. That is where I broke my ankle (the first time) six weeks before I was to go to sniper school.  I went to France and trained with the French Commandos working with their weapons systems.  That was the second time I broke my ankle, again just a few months before my next open slot in sniper school. After that I was done in my leg unit. They moved me to the BRM ranges as an instructor.


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Remington 700, 308 3.5-18X50 IOR
6.5 Creedmoor (custom) 12-52X56 IOR



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