Print Page | Close Window

Sako 85 vs. Weatherby Mark V

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Firearms
Forum Description: All makes, models and uses
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8100
Printed Date: March/28/2024 at 10:54
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Sako 85 vs. Weatherby Mark V
Posted By: timber
Subject: Sako 85 vs. Weatherby Mark V
Date Posted: October/11/2007 at 22:29

Okay, I've written several times that I like the Sako 85 more than the Weatherby Mark V and some other rifles because of their safeties and triggers.  But as I've stated I have VERY little experience with the Magnum Mark V action.  Tell me why you guys like them better than the Sako.  And don't hold back.  You ain't gonna hurt my feelin's.

 

timber




Replies:
Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/12/2007 at 10:25

Keep in mind that any answer you're likely to receive here will naturally be very subjective, as we all have our individual preferences which are usually neither right nor wrong.

 

I personally am not a big fan of the Mark V and Weatherby's in general, mainly because I don't like the Weatherby stock style at all -- it has a very 1970's "dated" look to me, and is unnecessarily chunky, with squared-off lines and flat surfaces that don't feel "right" in my hands.  The Mark V carries more weight than it really needs to for standard calibers, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the harder kicking chamberings.  I do like aspects of the Mark V action, namely the overall quality and smoothness of bolt operation.  Like you, I don't like the trigger (mainly because there aren't very many aftermarket triggers available for it), and I absolutely detest the safety.

 

I am a big fan of Sako actions, both old and new.  Like the MK V, the 75 and new 85 are also a very smooth operating, well made actions.  The Sako has the same short bolt throw as the MK V, and 3 lugs are just as strong as 6 or 9, yet are more likely to all evenly bear the loads from firing.  I like the changes Sako made to the 85, namely CRF and the new classic style stock shape with shadowline cheekpiece.  From what I've seen, it appears to me that Sako wood quality has declined over the years for whatever reason, so I wouldn't buy one sight unseen, as I've seen many Sakos with extremely plain wood and yet some with really nice wood.  I got lucky with my 75 in that it does have quite pretty wood figure in the butt portion of the stock.  I'm definitely fond of Sako triggers, which are always very crisp and can be adjusted to a reasonably light pull weight.  While I think the 75/85 safety is an improvement over the previous Sako safeties, I still wouldn't consider it my favorite design.  I like the Winchester 70 style 3-position safety the best.  I don't like the Sako tapered dovetail grooves because it limits your choices in scope mounts as well as mount positioning on the rifle, though Talley mounts for Sako have worked well for me.

 

Basically most actions have at least 1 design feature that I like, and it would be difficult to incorporate all the "best" features into one action because some features cannot coexist together on the same rifle.



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/12/2007 at 11:11

Rifledude makes some very good points.  It really is a subjective issue.  Both the Sako and Wby. are two of the finest production rifles made and it really is a matter of choice regarding aesthetics and those other issues he brings up.  I personally have never handled an 85, but have had some experience with the 75, albeit limited.  I have no problems with the safety on the Wby.  All I want in a safety personally, is it to be on or off and I do not mind if the bolt is locked in place.  In fact, in some cases that maybe a positive, if you are in the woods and do not want the bolt accidently bumped open.  But, again it is all personal preference.  You also have to consider the chamberings.  Both manufactures offer some cross over into standard chambering (Wby.) and Wby. calibers (Sako), at least the last time I checked for Sako.  Sako has a great reputation for accuracy with hammer forged barrels, while many Wby. barrels are button rifled.  I like the Wby. look, Rifledude does not, do you?  I wrote Ed Weatherby and e-mail about bringing out more different wood styles, such as matte, as they used to, as well as some benchrest actions.  My reply, was that was a possibility for the former, but they really wanted to remain a producer of hunting rifles.  Bottom line.  Both fine rifles.  Now you have to make a choice and you will not be wrong either way.



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: martin3175
Date Posted: October/12/2007 at 16:23
I have 3 Mark V's  (  Deluxe, custom shop fluted barrel Sporter with satin stock, and stainless in a B&C stock ) and lovem'''     I don't have or have shot either Sako action, but know those that do and they lovem' also....I have to agree with Dolphin comments that ya can't go wrong either way


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/12/2007 at 20:53
i dont know jack about actions, but i will disagree with ted for once in my life and say i kinda like the way weatherby's stock looks, it fits me very nicely and i think the next time i buy a new rifle it will be a weatherby. i dont have any real experience with either actions, as i have never fired a rifle made by  either company, but i will offer this, i dont think either action is a piece of sh*t, face it these names have been in business for many years, and they both make a damn nice rifle either way you look at it, i would have to save my sheckels for many many months maybe even a year to afford a mkv or a sako85 actioned rifle, if i wasnt going to buy a  magnum caliber i would buy a sako 85 right now, but if i wanted a magnum i think i would buy a weatherby, my saying is this if you buy a weatherby dont waste you money by buying a non weatherby caliber.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/13/2007 at 00:18

Thanks guys.  I'm going to try to put together a list of both rifles' features so we can objectively compare the two.  They really seem to be quite different in many respects.  To me Weatherby Magnums seem to favor ultra long shots and the newer Sako 85 feels more like a medium range rifle. For now I'd like to add a few thoughts to what has already been said. 

 

I'm paraphrasing but it's been said 'as long as you're comparing quality pieces the fit to the shooter may be the most important of all in choosing a rifle (shotgun, etc)'.  No doubt both Weatherby and Sako are very high 'quality'.  So in my opinion they are comparable and I like them both.  I don't mean to denigrate the Weatherby because I like a few things better about the Sako.

 

RifleDude said: The Mark V carries more weight than it really needs to for standard calibers, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the harder kicking chamberings.  I do like aspects of the Mark V action, namely the overall quality and smoothness of bolt operation. 

 

I like the added weight of the Weatherby magnums and think the lighter Sako 85 is not as suited for magnum calibers.  In fact my biggest criticisim of the new Sako is the trimmed down straight stock, especially the buttstock/recoil pad.  I like the look but you really feel the recoil.  I think others here have agreed with this sentiment.  If you're thinking about one handle it first - I didn't and although I would have probably bought it anyway it sure would have given me pause.  I think Weatherby's monte carlo stock is known for handling heavy recoil well.

 

RifleDude said:  From what I've seen, it appears to me that Sako wood quality has declined over the years for whatever reason, so I wouldn't buy one sight unseen, as I've seen many Sakos with extremely plain wood and yet some with really nice wood.

 

This may be true but I couldn't afford a Sako for a long time and didn't really follow them.  Mine is pretty nice for a production rifle but I really like the oil finish and I don't mean polyurethane.  Sako recommends 100% tung oil occasionally to 'refresh' the finish.  This is 'old school' and I love it.  In the hands it feels like real wood and should take on a patina with age.

 

RifleDude said:  I don't like the Sako tapered dovetail grooves because it limits your choices in scope mounts as well as mount positioning on the rifle.

 

Right on.  To me the worst aspect of the rifle by far.  I know all the arguments about how scope bases can't be shot loose because recoil actually 'tightens' the bases.  Still, they are a pain and really limit the choice of scope mounts.  If you're listening Sako, when you come out with the 95 someday, consider something like the Icon's integrated Weaver base.

 

Dolphin said:  I have no problems with the safety on the Wby.  All I want in a safety personally, is it to be on or off and I do not mind if the bolt is locked in place.  In fact, in some cases that maybe a positive, if you are in the woods and do not want the bolt accidently bumped open.

 

I said elsewhere this is my least favorite thing about the Weatherby and hope the scaled up magnum (9-lug) version is better than my standard (6-lug) action Weatherby safeties.  (I've never owned a magnum Weatherby).  I also screwed up by trying to lower the trigger pull weight of my standard actions too much.  This made the trigger trip (dry fire) when taking the safety off.  This only happened on one of my three Weatherbys and may have been an anomaly.  I shouldn't have made a blanket statement about these safeties/triggers.  I did call Weatherby and was told the mininum weight is about 3#'s.  This is really low enough for most people, especially considering Weatherby's are for the most part dedicated hunting pieces.  My preference for 2.5#'s is really splitting hairs here.

 

As to the locking bolt feature this is found on both Weatherby's and Sako's.  With Weatherby Mark V's, like the Browning A-Bolt, Tikka, and others, the safety must be off to load or unload the rifle.  Sako, the new Icon, Model 70's (and perhaps others) have the capability to load and unload with the safety on.  I really like this feature.

 

Edit: Forgot about the Model 70's wing safety so I added it.  Also, made a mistake about saying you can load a Sako and others with the safety on and bolt locked.  What was I thinking?

 

Dolphin said:  I like the Wby. look, Rifledude does not, do you?  I wrote Ed Weatherby and e-mail about bringing out more different wood styles, such as matte, as they used to, as well as some benchrest actions.  My reply, was that was a possibility for the former, but they really wanted to remain a producer of hunting rifles. 

 

You've done a lot of other shooters/hunters a favor by doing this and I totally agree.  A lot of folks hate the shiny look.  I do have to admit that it looks sexy on a wood Mark V.  Have you guys seen the picture on Weatherby's website of the Ultramark?  Wow!  But lets hope one day they'll do a Mark V in a straight stock and/or a matte finish, especially true oil.

 

pyro6999 said:   if i wasnt going to buy a  magnum caliber i would buy a sako 85 right now, but if i wanted a magnum i think i would buy a weatherby, my saying is this if you buy a weatherby dont waste you money by buying a non weatherby caliber.

 

Agreed as I said above.  Just my opinion but the new Sako 85 stock is too trim for a magnum caliber.  Others may disagree.  I am moderately sensitive to recoil.

 

Let me relate a short story about Weatherby that will really date me.  I've lived in the southern US most of my life.  When I was in high school a couple of my hunting buddies and I went out shooting one day.  A girlfriend of ours came along - what a cool chick - her father did the whole Africa bit.  We drove out in one of the guys VW vans.  After shooting a few rifles she pulls one of her father's rifles out of a leather case, a beautiful wood Weatherby Mark V 300.  It was as if she had pulled out the sword of Damocles, so scary, dangerous, deadly, and mesmerizing it was, gleaming in the sun.  In my circle of friends it was the ultimate hunting rifle.  It was my first time seeing a Weatherby let alone handling one, truly breathtaking to a small town boy like me.  I was transfixed and smitten.

 

One by one we preceded to fire the piece.  We had opened up the huge 'moon roof' and stood up inside the van so that we were about shoulder level with the opening.  One of the guys was shooting 3-400 yards across a huge flat open swamp at some large white birds that seemed oblivious to what he was doing.  I know I know, irresponsible.  Anyway, finally, after one of the guys had hit and partially damaged the base of a pine tree limb perhaps a couple of hundred yards away, he handed me the rifle.  So I laid it over the roof, took aim at the same tree limb, and placed my finger on the trigger.  I was surprised when it went off and was thrilled when the limb fell.  Okay, it wasn't a great shot, but the sheer energy of the bullet at the base of the tree limb did the job.  Everyone was congratulating me on a fantastic shot and I felt like a hero.  I had a



Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 18:11

both are fine rifles, i work in a gun store (part time) and get to play with these things quite often. although in my opinion sako is a higher quality rifle, all internal parts are stainless the barrels are cold hammer forged 4groove rifling.

cold hammer forging produces a very uniform bore and actually hardens the bore surface it also reduces machining stress. sako also comes with a written guarantee to shoot 1 inch or less 5 shot groups at 100 yards. wertherby guarantees 1.5 three shot groups .three lugs are better as more of the lugs will be in contact with the reciever and therefor will be more true in the action also less dirt accumulation. there triggers are also much crisper and user adjustable.sako s free float the barrel weratheby does not .free floating helps with changes of point of impact due to heat and stock stresses due to weather changes. But what it really comes down to is what you want. if you want a lighter faster handling rifle in a standard or smaller magnum cartrage 300 wsm 300 win 7mm rm 270 wsm are anything smaller the sako will fit the bill. if you want a long range wander than get the weatherby but if you get the weatherby get it in a weatherby cal such as 30/378, 300 weatherby, 7mm weatherby ,338/378 . hell just go all out and get the 375 weatherby magnum. get what you feel fits you the best, if you like the gun you have and it fits you well and you are comfortable with it then, you will shoot that rifle the best



-------------
jay


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 20:38
i own a 300wsm and i dont recommend a light weight rifle in that caliber, its a kicking sob!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 20:45
Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

cold hammer forging produces a very uniform bore and actually hardens the bore surface it also reduces machining stress. 

 

Storm,

Actually, Weatherby rifles have hammer forged barrels as well, except for the models with the Criterion barrels, which are button rifled.  Also, even though some very fine, good shooting barrels can be made from the hammer forging process, it actually imparts the most stress on barrel steel of all rifling methods.  Button rifling produces much less stress, and cut rifling the least amount of stress of all.  This all doesn't necessarily mean much depending on whether or not the barrel was stress relieved and or lapped afterward.



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 20:48
one thing i have noticed about the whole buttoned vs hammered, browning abolts are buttoned and every browning i have owned has been exceptionaly accurate considering they were in the 300 mag class, my bro in law has a nasty ,270 in an abolt and its quite accurate as well, does the button have anything to do with this??

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 21:04
I'm pretty sure Browning A-Bolts have hammer forged barrels as well.  A-Bolts are made by Miroku of Japan, who to the best of my knowledge use the hammer forging process.  Most of the majors except Savage and TC hammer forge their barrels, because it is more adaptable to high volume manufacturing. 

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 21:23
i dont know what im think there cause i know i saw it somewhere i just cant find it anywhere, so i dont know who i am thinking of on that one cause browning web page doesnt say, and neither does savages at least that i could see.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 21:44

Nope pyro, you ain't loosing it. They are button rifled. I don't think Hart, Lilja or even Douglas for that matter are laying awake at night though.

 

http://www.browning.com/products/adsbroch/support/pdf/05_156_bfa.pdf - http://www.browning.com/products/adsbroch/support/pdf/05_156 _bfa.pdf

 

 



Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 22:17
Good find, Roy!  I hadn't seen any mention of how their barrels were made, so I assumed they were like most of the high volume mfgs.

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 22:30
I had no idea beforeI looked for it myself. I figured the same as you regarding hammer forged barrels.


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/14/2007 at 22:32

My Weatherby Mark V's:

 

     1) TRR 223rem - 5 shot groups attainable at 200 yards with a 20X scope - trigger is pretty good at slightly less than 3#'s with a small amount of creep - negligible recoil as the rifle weighs about 9.5#'s with scope - really fun too shoot

     2) Lightweight Sporter 30-06 with muzzle break (this one had the safety/trigger problem) - has very sharp recoil without break - worst trigger of the bunch at slightly more than 3#'s - wicked cool looks with the muzzle break and skinny #1 barrel

     3) SVM 7mm-08, singleshot - haven't scoped or shot this one yet - with it's weight, 8.5#'s sans scope, it should be a pussycat

 

     The SVM's trigger was replaced with a Timney Trigger because I really wanted a light trigger for this rifle.  I was unable to adjust the trigger pull weight below 3#'s and get it to pass the bolt slam and butt slam tests.  It also had a small but noticable amount of creep. 

 

     The Timney Trigger is advertised as being adjustable from 1.5 - 3.5#'s.  I had mine installed by an authorized Weatherby Service Center.  They were only able to get it down to 2.75#'s and pass both slam tests.  However, it doesn't have any creep.  It has a wider smooth surface but the edges are not radiused.

 

     I purchased it directly from Timney Triggers and had to wait 3 or 4 months for a production run.  It's about $130 (plus installation); you can see a picture of it on their website.  Had I known it wouldn't make it to 2#'s, my goal for this rifle, I would not have bought it.  As far as I know this trigger is the only aftermarket trigger made for Mark V's and fits both standard and magnum actions.

 

     I'd like to get a magnum Mark V just to experience the bigger action.  I've recently handled, but not shot, a 300 Weatherby and the action does feel slicker than the standard actions of my Weatherby Mark V's.  I guess it's because of the much larger bolt diameter. 

 

     It's weird but every time I pick up a Mark V magnum it feels a lot smaller in my hands than I would expect.  At 8.5#'s for a 257-340 they're heavier than a typical 700 but I actually like the extra heft.  I'm thinking the 257 at 8.5#'s would be fairly easy to shoot for a magnum, even for someone like me who likes a soft shooter.  I do wish there was more ammo choices for the 257 like what I've seen with the 270 and 7mm Weatherby. 

 

     I used to own a Tikka 270WSM Hunter (6#'s 13 oz.s without scope) that to me kicked pretty good with 150 grain rounds.  I've been told by others had I replaced the factory recoil pad with a Limbsaver it would have been tamed.  I sold it to a friend of mine, full disclosure of course.  He likes it factory stock but told me, seriously, it recoils more than his 700BDL 300win mag.  So that's another reason I'm thinking the 257 Weatherby Mark V should be okay for me. 

 

     Any recommendations? And FYI - I haven't shot a 300 since my school days and the funny thing is I don't remember it being a heavy kicker.  Of course I was pumped on adrenaline.

 

timber

 

 



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/15/2007 at 06:35
i put a limbsaver on my 300 wsm and it helped some but i would assume the 300 weatherby to be comparable to my 300 wsm my 300 win mag on the other hand is what you would call a pussy cat, and i dont know why because they are basicaly the same rifle except one is ss barrel the other is matte finished. the .257 is a very could candidate for a reloader, you can mix it up and really give yourself options like you say you want by doing so.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/15/2007 at 06:38
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Nope pyro, you ain't loosing it. They are button rifled. I don't think Hart, Lilja or even Douglas for that matter are laying awake at night though.

 

http://www.browning.com/products/adsbroch/support/pdf/05_156_bfa.pdf - http://www.browning.com/products/adsbroch/support/pdf/05_156 _bfa.pdf

 

 

 

thanks roy! i could swear it was true i just couldnt find it now i can sleep better knowing im not going



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/15/2007 at 10:54

browning a bolt barrels are button rifled. browning does a very good job on there barrels once they are rifled they check them for straightness and air gauged for uniformity. there tolerences may be lower than the high end manufactures like shilen and hart. but it is still a nice q.c step. browning b.a.r barrels are hammer forged in belgum.

pyro i to have a light rifle in 300 wsm its a sako 85 synthetic stainless, i find to that it kicks very hard ,it is more of a punch than a push like my 300 wm ,my wm is 2 pounds heaver though.

timber if you go online and google "big game info" that site has a good recoil calculator.

for a 7.5 pound tikka (scoped) 270 wsm recoil energy is around 25.9 flb

for a 9.5 pound 257 weatherby (scoped) recoil is only 16 flbs



-------------
jay


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/15/2007 at 12:39
Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

My Weatherby Mark V's:

 

     1) TRR 223rem - 5 shot groups attainable at 200 yards with a 20X scope - trigger is pretty good at slightly less than 3#'s with a small amount of creep - negligible recoil as the rifle weighs about 9.5#'s with scope - really fun too shoot

     2) Lightweight Sporter 30-06 with muzzle break (this one had the safety/trigger problem) - has very sharp recoil without break - worst trigger of the bunch at slightly more than 3#'s - wicked cool looks with the muzzle break and skinny #1 barrel

     3) SVM 7mm-08, singleshot - haven't scoped or shot this one yet - with it's weight, 8.5#'s sans scope, it should be a pussycat

 

     The SVM's trigger was replaced with a Timney Trigger because I really wanted a light trigger for this rifle.  I was unable to adjust the trigger pull weight below 3#'s and get it to pass the bolt slam and butt slam tests.  It also had a small but noticable amount of creep. 

 

     The Timney Trigger is advertised as being adjustable from 1.5 - 3.5#'s.  I had mine installed by an authorized Weatherby Service Center.  They were only able to get it down to 2.75#'s and pass both slam tests.  However, it doesn't have any creep.  It has a wider smooth surface but the edges are not radiused.

 

     I purchased it directly from Timney Triggers and had to wait 3 or 4 months for a production run.  It's about $130 (plus installation); you can see a picture of it on their website.  Had I known it wouldn't make it to 2#'s, my goal for this rifle, I would not have bought it.  As far as I know this trigger is the only aftermarket trigger made for Mark V's and fits both standard and magnum actions.

 

     I'd like to get a magnum Mark V just to experience the bigger action.  I've recently handled, but not shot, a 300 Weatherby and the action does feel slicker than the standard actions of my Weatherby Mark V's.  I guess it's because of the much larger bolt diameter. 

 

     It's weird but every time I pick up a Mark V magnum it feels a lot smaller in my hands than I would expect.  At 8.5#'s for a 257-340 they're heavier than a typical 700 but I actually like the extra heft.  I'm thinking the 257 at 8.5#'s would be fairly easy to shoot for a magnum, even for someone like me who likes a soft shooter.  I do wish there was more ammo choices for the 257 like what I've seen with the 270 and 7mm Weatherby. 

 

     I used to own a Tikka 270WSM Hunter (6#'s 13 oz.s without scope) that to me kicked pretty good with 150 grain rounds.  I've been told by others had I replaced the factory recoil pad with a Limbsaver it would have been tamed.  I sold it to a friend of mine, full disclosure of course.  He likes it factory stock but told me, seriously, it recoils more than his 700BDL 300win mag.  So that's another reason I'm thinking the 257 Weatherby Mark V should be okay for me. 

 

     Any recommendations? And FYI - I haven't shot a 300 since my school days and the funny thing is I don't remember it being a heavy kicker.  Of course I was pumped on adrenaline.

 

timber

 

 

Timber, as the owner of multiple Mark Vs, the most recent purchase of which was a synthetic 270 Wby. with a SS action and barrel, used, minimally, looks brand new, as almost all of my Wby. purchases have been, I think I can lend some help.  The 300 that I own has a nice gloss wooden stock with a #1 contour barrel and does kick, but to me it is not bother me, or create any flinching.  Now, that might because I weigh about 235 and seem to be gaining all the time.  Believe it or not, my 7mmSTW with a 9 lug action, re-barreled from a 7Wby. in a matted Euromark stock, kicks much harder than the 300 and believe weighs more.  This is with similar weight bullets and factory (Wby.) ammo.  Personally, I would get the 300, just because you will have more versatility with respect to the game you will be able to take and take safely.  The 257 can easily down a black bear, but you are on the edge, easily on the edge and if shot placement is not just right, good luck finding the animal or even worse, if you do not get another shot off, getting away.  Just a few of my thoughts.  On the other hand, you have a 30-06, which can do about everything the 300 can do, so if you look at it that way, get the 257, which was Roy's favorite caliber.



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/15/2007 at 18:41
the .257wby would be my caliber of choice if i had the money to go buy a new rifle today,the only issue i have with the  caliber is i enjoy shooting and so one has to really be careful not to shoot the .257 while hot, but if you pay attention to the temp of the barrel its not an issue

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/15/2007 at 20:16
if my 300wsm wasnt so accurate i think i would get rid of it cause the recoil is somewhat obnoxious from the bench

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/15/2007 at 23:03

storm 2844 wrote:

 

timber if you go online and google "big game info" that site has a good recoil calculator.

 

Good info.  I don't handload.  How do I know what 'powder charge' to use for any given calculation?

 

pyro6999 wrote:

 

the .257wby would be my caliber of choice if i had the money to go buy a new rifle today,the only issue i have with the  caliber is i enjoy shooting and so one has to really be careful not to shoot the .257 while hot, but if you pay attention to the temp of the barrel its not an issue

 

I don't understand technically what damage can occur if a barrel is shot hot.  I've been told erosion of the throat.  Does this mean that the metal is literally burned away to the point where a cartridge won't seat properly and therefore affects accuracy?  Is this what is meant when the barrel is 'shot out'?  Can someone explain this?  Also, I've noticed faster copper build-up if a rifle is shot when hot.  Is this another by-product of shooting with a hot barrel? 



Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 08:25
Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

storm 2844 wrote:

 

timber if you go online and google "big game info" that site has a good recoil calculator.

 

Good info.  I don't handload.  How do I know what 'powder charge' to use for any given calculation?

 

pyro6999 wrote:

 

the .257wby would be my caliber of choice if i had the money to go buy a new rifle today,the only issue i have with the  caliber is i enjoy shooting and so one has to really be careful not to shoot the .257 while hot, but if you pay attention to the temp of the barrel its not an issue

 

I don't understand technically what damage can occur if a barrel is shot hot.  I've been told erosion of the throat.  Does this mean that the metal is literally burned away to the point where a cartridge won't seat properly and therefore affects accuracy?  Is this what is meant when the barrel is 'shot out'?  Can someone explain this?  Also, I've noticed faster copper build-up if a rifle is shot when hot.  Is this another by-product of shooting with a hot barrel? 

Without repeating a discussion of throat erosion, here is a link to one of my last opinions regarding the subject:

  http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7586&KW=th roat+erosion - http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7586&KW=th roat+erosion

Read my first post on that page.



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 16:30

Okay, so throat erosion is not something to be concerned about for most hunting rifles because, in most cases, they're not shot enough.  But just for arguments' sake is shooting a barrel while hot even something to be concerned about for the typical hunting rifle? 

 

Say you're at the range and you're trying to get in a lot of practice (with a hunting rifle) in a short amount of time.  So you fire away and the barrel starts getting hot, usually after only 6 or 7 rounds in something like a 30-06.  If you keep shooting are you damaging the barrel?  Or is the point that you are probably damaging the barrel some but it doesn't matter much because you may only shoot a box or two at a time and then only once or twice a year?  The point being that even doing this you'll never even get close to a 1000 rounds in a lifetime.

 

I will say that I am aware of course that accuracy drops off with a hot barrel.  And it seems to me that copper build-up occurs faster with a hot barrel.  And further this is not something I make a practice of but I have experimented with this in the past.  What I've found beyond the accuracy and copper issues stated above is that the next time I fired the rifle cold it appeared to be perfectly fine.  Once the copper was removed accuracy seemed to be back to normal.

 

If anyone has information on where to find typical powder charges for various calibers I'd most appreciate it.  I'd like to play around with some recoil calculations and need these figures.

 

timber



Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 17:19

timber go on http://www.reloadersnest.com - www.reloadersnest.com  that site has alot of  reloading info for all calapers including all the weatherbys. if you can go out and buy a good reloading manual even if you dont reload. lymans 48th edition is a good one. it seems to be the most accurate in its info and loads and it isnt biast to its own brands. it will also give you a good rundown on reloading, and interior and exterior ballistics.

 



-------------
jay


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 17:31
as for as shooting out a barrel yes you can shoot one out very quickly. the more and the slower the powder is the faster it will burn out a barrel a 308win using 44 - 45 g 4895 powder will last approx 5000 rounds a 257weatherby will last about 1000.using 66 to 70g h100 powder check out  http://www.ranrrc.org/tech/BarrelLife.htm - http://www.ranrrc.org/tech/BarrelLife.htm  and yes watch out for barrel temp the hotter you get that barrel the faster it will burn out. throut errosion is coused by excessive heat in a way yes it is actually burning away. for a 257 weatherby shoot ony 3 shots then let it cool. i shoot 6 shots at a time with my 308win before letting it cool and only 3 with my 300 wsm.

-------------
jay


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 20:35
if you keep shooting a gun after its hot you could wear it out way faster than if you only shot it 5 times a year, say you ran two boxes of shells through your rifle only stopping to reload, you would do more damage there with those 40 shots than you could do in 10 years of 10-20 shots a year.you really knock barrel life off fast when you just keep shooting and shooting.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 20:37

Thanks.  I'll get a Lymans 48th edition.  I presume I'll be able to look up a cartridge/caliber/bullet weight and then find appropriate suggested(?) powder charges.  One of my gun shops I patronize has wanted to get me into hand-loading for years.  I've resisted mostly because I've always thought it would be too time intensive but also because I didn't feel I could do it safely.  Anyway, I'm pretty sure he'll have the manual and can help me find the information I need to make recoil calculations. 

 

It's interesting but I've never thought about the slow versus fast powder charges.  Logically the slower powder charges literally burn longer thus exposing the barrel to intensive heat for a longer period of time than a faster powder of the same weight?  Also a smaller caliber should rise in temperature faster than a larger caliber, all other variables being equal, because the powder flame is exposed to less metal to absorb the heat?

 

I'd bet the average hunter never gives it a second thought.  Most of my hunting buddies are not gun guys and really I only have a surface technical understanding of guns, a lot of it from experience and trial and error.  And I've made more than my share of incorrect assumptions and conclusions and have occasionally fallen prey to false myths passed around by hunters.

 

How do you determine when a barrel is too hot?  I've always gone by the old adage 'if you can't hold your hand on the barrel it's too hot'.  With that rule I'm lucky if I can get 5 slow shots with my Sako 30-06, maybe 10 (very quick shots) with my heavy barrel TRR 223.  I just wonder how precise this 'test' is for determining if a barrel is too hot and needs to be set aside to cool?  I've also wondered if additional damage can be done to a barrel if you clean it hot.  The idea is that you're putting a swab of solvent (ambient temperature) down a barrel that's very very hot - the inference being that it may be cooling the barrel too fast.  Any merit to this?



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 20:38
the newest hornady and lee manuals are also very good.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 20:51
i use the if its to hot to hold its to hot to shoot, another thing about slower powders is that it takes more of it to make speed which in theory makes the round more accurate, thats why a lot of guys load based on volume not weight. i dont use any means to cool my barrel other than time, sometimes cool weather helps but you dont want cold temps that could casue issues like pouring cold water on the barrel, i wouldnt say that size has much to do with it, barrel make up and pressure will though, take a round like the 22-250, not considered powerful but very fast, compare it to a 30-06 which isnt really considered fast but is somewhat powerful, both will heat in close proxmity if there barrels are comparable contours and thickness just because heat is a by product of squeezing the trigger, you would probably notice damage in both if you abused them by shooting a string of 40 in a row just because its small doesnt mean it wont heat.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 20:52

pyro6999.  We posted about the same time.  I just read yours.  Basically what you're saying is the hotter the barrel gets the faster it will wear?  And that goes up at a logarithmic rate, ie if the barrel is hot with 6 shots the 7th shot begins to damage the barrel and the 8th shot would be MUCH harder on the barrel than even #7?  I hope I said that clearly. 

 

This seems logical.  And in my example of trying to do a fast practice session with a lot of shots you'd say that is a VERY bad idea, regardless if the rifle is 'only' a hunting rifle, let alone a target or competition piece?



Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 20:59

pyro6999: " you would probably notice damage in both if you abused them by shooting a string of 40 in a row just because its small doesnt mean it wont heat."

 

I might not have said this right.  I was trying to say a smaller caliber would heat up FASTER (caps for emphasis only) than a larger caliber everything else being equal.  My thinking was because there is less metal exposed to the flame and would therefore logically heat up faster.  I know it's difficult to compare different calibers and keep everything else (bullet weight, powder charge, etc.) identical but am I thinking correctly about this?



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 21:03
yeah i would say that once the barrel gets hot  that more damage will be done with each successive shot but i dont know at what point you would say ok i have shot x amount of shots and with each shot after this i cant exponentialy raise the degree of damage the next shot will do, so in other words after so many shots the degree of damage wont increase cause you would have to like melt the barrel at some point to increase the damage after a given amount of time, i usually shot 3 shots wait a little a bit then shoot the last two shots and then i switch guns and give it a break for a bit. here is one thing to think about when you consider barrel life, the smaller the caliber and the bigger the case the more likely you will have a short barrel life, cause you can only force so much powder down the bore, take the .257 wby, its about as much powder as the .257 cal can handle, the .264 win mag is another example of this, most of you small diameter magnums like this can really eat a barrel fast if you dont be careful

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 21:06
Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

pyro6999: " you would probably notice damage in both if you abused them by shooting a string of 40 in a row just because its small doesnt mean it wont heat."

 

I might not have said this right.  I was trying to say a smaller caliber would heat up FASTER (caps for emphasis only) than a larger caliber everything else being equal.  My thinking was because there is less metal exposed to the flame and would therefore logically heat up faster.  I know it's difficult to compare different calibers and keep everything else (bullet weight, powder charge, etc.) identical but am I thinking correctly about this?

not really pressure  and speed are factors to consider here and the 22-250 has both as does the 30-06, just in lower levels than the 22-250, but you are also looking at a lot more powder and a ton more bullet surface to create friction in the 30-06, so really they would be comparable to heat up at a close pace.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/16/2007 at 22:39

"take the .257 wby, its about as much powder as the .257 cal can handle, the .264 win mag is another example of this, most of you small diameter magnums like this can really eat a barrel fast if you dont be careful"

 

That really sums it up for me and makes the most since.  Even though I don't have any of these small magnums right now, or any magnums for that matter, I'm going to pay more attention to barrel heat.  Thanks.  I also look forward to exploring recoil calculations.  I've seen some tables of calibers all ready calculated for recoil energy, etc. but they'll have the weight of the gun at some x value which may or may not be what my particular case would be.  So it will be very useful.

 

Maybe I should ask this elsewhere but I'd like to know if there is a concise definition of what makes a certain round a 'magnum'?  Is it pressure?  If so why have I read that some 'standard' rounds, like the 260rem, have very high pressure but are not classified as 'magnum'.  It seems as if I remember the figure of 60,000 cu, whatever that means, as the figure equated with the 260 and that was comparatively very high.

 

Back to the 257 Weatherby.  In your opinion, given a requirement for moderate felt recoil, would you say it might be a good possibility for the ultimate (or best) very long range medium game (whitetail, etc.) caliber in a production rifle?  Or would you go a little larger for wind tolerance at longer ranges, say a 270WSM or 270WBY?



Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 01:40

Timber,

 

Look into the 7mm magnums such as the 7mm Weatherby STW Ultramag as they have really high ballastics coefience.  If you go back to the http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx - http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx  and play with the ballastics calculator you can enter bullet diamater, ballastic coefience, speed, wind drift, etc... and it will do all caculations for you on bullet drop, wind drift energy, etc... out to 1000 yards.  Go on there and play with different calibers and speeds from realoding manuels and factory ammunitions ballastics to see which suits you the best.



-------------
jay


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 01:46

Timber,

What constitues a magnum is usually the speed of what your bullet travels or cartirdge that is bigger than a previous cartridge such as a 30/06 is a standard cartridge and a 300 is it's magnum.   A 7mm/08 is a standard cartridge and 7mm magnum is it's magnum.  A magnum usually has a powder charge of 65 grains or more and is able to launch bullet of decent weight for that calliber at speeds of over 3000 feet per seconds.  Such as a 30/06 will shoot a 165 grain bullet at 2850 feet per second and a 300 magnum will launch it at 3100 feet per second.



-------------
jay


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 06:35

the whole premise behind magnums is to reach out further with more oomph, until the wsm wssm and rum and rsaums came out magnums had a belted case and a used a bit more powder and a magnum primer.

 

the .257 is the fastest, long distance  whitetail  round for the recoil conscience i can think off, you step up to a .270 and its going to be felt more and then more again when you go up to a 7mm mag. one more to think about it the .264win mag, the only reason i like it is because the 6.5 's (.264) have a huge sectional density rating on their bullets which means they will hit hard, and the .264 is a very good round for elk & bear sized game as well.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 08:13

This thread seems to have taken a slight detour. To cover two threads at once:

Barrel heat can be quite a topic. During my infantry days, we used a Bren gun, which is a 7.62 Nato heavy barrel machine gun, used for those "cover me boys" situations. These guns liked to jam, and whilst the rifleman is unblocking the jam, the no2 rifleman has to continue providing cover fire, using his standard FN 7.62 Nato (308Win). I have personally fired such a rifle on full automatic (I recall the firing rate to be 650 rounds per min) untill the Bren can kick to life again. The rifle becomes so hot that you cannot hold it in your hand, even with the ventilated plastic forend. The rounds start to go off without one even holding the trigger down, the heat of the barrel is enough to set the rounds off. I have seen one barrel so hot that it drooped and glowed red in the dark. Despite this abuse, these rifle short perfectly well once cooled off. We shot targets out to 300m and shot top scores. I cannot talk about barrel wear and life, as I did not know these things even excisted. I know that the barrel was shiny and clean enough inside to pass any inspection.

That said, my 300H&H had a worn throat that could not shoot. The inside throat area looked like the grand canyon and could not be cleaned properly.

I personally do not like to heat a barrel up. When target shooting or load developing I count 1 min between each shot and use the back of my hand to feel for barrel heat built-up. I stop the moment it feels hot, that is I must be able to keep my hand on the barrel or I stop for a while.

During hunting it is more like providing "cover fire". I only check for barrel heat after the buck is down!!!!!

 

On the original topic, I have a Sako L61R or long action for the Finnbear model. Whenever I pick up any other rifle it cannot compare with the smoothness of the Sako action. However, finding after-sales parts for the Sako is a BITCH. I am waiting on Timney Triggers since May  2007 for a trigger, no go. The same on scope mounts etc.



Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 13:00

Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

as for as shooting out a barrel yes you can shoot one out very quickly. the more and the slower the powder is the faster it will burn out a barrel a 308win using 44 - 45 g 4895 powder will last approx 5000 rounds a 257weatherby will last about 1000.using 66 to 70g h100 powder check out  http://www.ranrrc.org/tech/BarrelLife.htm - http://www.ranrrc.org/tech/BarrelLife.htm  and yes watch out for barrel temp the hotter you get that barrel the faster it will burn out. throut errosion is coused by excessive heat in a way yes it is actually burning away. for a 257 weatherby shoot ony 3 shots then let it cool. i shoot 6 shots at a time with my 308win before letting it cool and only 3 with my 300 wsm.

The statements frequently made regarding shooting out Wby. barrels in 1000 shots are anectdotal and in my research regarding the topic began to surface years ago in order to increase the sales of other brands of rifles.  I have looked into this topic extensively, probably more so than any one or group of individuals and it just does not hold water.  Please read my first post on the following page, which gives a little more in depth summary on the subject:

   http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7586&KW=th roat+erosion - http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7586&KW=th roat+erosion



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 15:19

Dolphin i didnt make this statement to pick on weatherby calabers but it is a fact that the more slow burning powder in a case for a given bore size will in fact burn out a barrel faster. hence most weatherby calabers.

this holds true for th 264 win mag the 7mm rem mags all the rem ultra mags 22-250 220 swift any cal with a small bore and large powder capacity is going to burn out a barrel faster. sh*t the 223 wssm is burning them out in 400 rounds.  the 7mm rem mag will get about 1500 - 2000 rounds as will the 7mm weatherby but as soon as you neck that same 7mm weatherby case down to 257 burning the same amount of powder(also slower powder) your barrel life is reduced. to maby 1000.  the statement is true and frequently made about the weatherby calabers becouse most weatherby cals. are overbore calabers. http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/barrel_life.html - http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/barrel_life.html  check out that site http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reference/rifleinout.cfm - http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reference/rifleinout.cfm  and that one. and look at the chat on my previouse post its in your window above this post. we can get into looking at the lazzaroni cals. if you want they burn  barrels out faster than any other magnum. 4-500 rounds.

 



-------------
jay


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 16:49
Again, I have done the research and done so quite thoroughly.  A site or two does not make it true.  Having spent quite a bit on this topic I know what I what I am talking about.  It does not bother me because it involves Wby. and I love their calibers and rifles, because it involves any over bored caliber.  I spoke to two guys who had 5000 rounds out of their 300 Wby. magnums and still shooting 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards.  I would say that is burned out for bench shooting, but adequate for hunting.  My research and this topic took me through the internet, discussions with many shooters, e-mails to many writers of magazines, discussions with gunsmiths who I had been referred to (as they personal had alot of experience with Wby. rifles) and the list goes on.  The other thing I would like to say, is that does something magical happen at the 1000 round mark.  Kind of like a pill going out of date.  Also, as far as Lazzeroni is concerned, while inflation of all ballistics are concerned by manufactures, Lazzeroni is king.  Their testing is done at 3000 feet of altitude and despite what is posted on their website, there is a question of whether they use a 28 inch barrel.  Personally, I do not give them credit for their velocities as being the fastest, but being close to some of the fastest and the fact that they should be given credit for starting the short fat magnum craze as opposed to the big manufactures.  The other thing, if your barrel wears out at 1000 yards, replace it.  It really is not that costly, compared to the price of a brand new Mark V or other rifles and you can get a match grade barrel, especially when people are paying 1000 dollars plus for rifle scopes.

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 19:38

ok if you talking about 2-3 inch groups you can shoot a magnum pretty much till its throat is as long as its barrel and if these people are proud of there 2-3 inch groups then well good for them. and since i burn out a barrel in 308 win a year and one in 300 win mag a year .308 in sil comp and 300 at 900 yard targets. ya i have know idea what i am talking about. but then again i like to keep all my shots in a group of at least .75 of an inch at 100. and for hunting a hunting rifle should group at least 1.5 at 100y unless you are always shooting deer or what ever at exactly 100 with no wind or other variables. think about it if you shooting a deer with your 300 weatherby at 250 yards in a 20 mile per hour cross wind and frontal shot at deer velocity is 3200 fps 180g bullet .475 bc,(nos partition) wind drift alone is 7.4 inches at 250 yards. now wich way is that bullit going to go. to the left? to the right? by the time it hits that deer your shooting at it may be 10 inches to the left or to the right so this is acceptable mmmm ok. the point is to be as a responsable hunter should be removing as many variables out of the equation as possible. 

so instead of calling a barrel burnt out lets call it "the barrel has retired its repeatible accuracy but it still ok for huntin". 

weather lazz shoots its ammo from 3000 feet or 10 feet the difference is only 80 fps

and there velocities are from a 27 inch barrels for there long actions and 24 inch barrels for there short actions.

and yes 1000 is the magic number. no no its actually 1001 or maby its 999 i cant remember.

magazine writers. they only write what the sponcering company wants the people to hear. there like used car salesmen.

and oh ya i am a big fan of weatherby. this hole forum topic is exactly what i went though about 3 weeks ago when i was looking for a new hunting rifle. (i chose the sako 300wsm).

but weatherby would have been my next choice. i really like the 30-378. barrel burner though haha

but that will be my next years hunting rifle.

 



-------------
jay


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 20:40
30-378 thats a hefty hay burner of a horse to feed powder to, you wont even get a 100 rounds out of a pound powder feeding that mule! but will they lay a bullet way out there and way flat!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 21:25

hehe ya at 115g of h870 you get only 60 rounds you can get a 190 grain sierra hpbt matchking going at 3300 fps

so with its bc at .533 one min and ill punch that info in, with a 300 zero that puts you 2.5 inches high at 100 yards at 500 yards you will only drop 20.7 inches at 1000 yards your drop is only 187.4 inches. if you used it for hunting using a 180g accubond for say with a bc of .507 at  500 yards your bullet is still going 2476 fps and still carrying 2450 ft/lbs of energy



-------------
jay


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 23:03

Dolphin says: "The other thing, if your barrel wears out at 1000 yards, replace it.  It really is not that costly, compared to the price of a brand new Mark V or other rifles and you can get a match grade barrel, especially when people are paying 1000 dollars plus for rifle scopes."

 

I really like this thinking.  Don't deliberately mistreat the barrel/rifle but when it wears out, just replace it.  Like a tool.  Probably end up with a better than factory barrel and maybe even better accuracy/precision.
 

storm2844 say: " the point is to be as a responsable hunter should be removing as many variables out of the equation as possible. 

so instead of calling a barrel burnt out lets call it "the barrel has retired its repeatible accuracy but it still ok for huntin". "

 

I think everybody can agree with this.  If it's not accurate enough to hunt humanely then it's time to replace the barrel.

 

I appreciate all the discussion and have learned from all.  I gotta say I've been more of a hunting guy than a gun guy but this new Sako 85 with it's challenges has pushed me and it's been enjoyable.

 

I'd still like to know if there is a universally accepted definition of what a magnum round really is: muzzle velocity, pressure, whatever.  I've research some and can't find the answer.  Thanks,

 

timber

 

timber



Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/17/2007 at 23:16

storm2844 says:  "the 7mm rem mag will get about 1500 - 2000 rounds as will the 7mm weatherby but as soon as you neck that same 7mm weatherby case down to 257 burning the same amount of powder(also slower powder) your barrel life is reduced."

 

Let me see if I can summarize what you're saying.  Take a magnum caliber that will shoot X amount of rounds.  If you take that same casing and 'neck' it down to a smaller round (same powder capacity but smaller caliber - diameter - bullet) the resultant round being fired in a smaller caliber barrel will wear FASTER (caps for emphasis only) than the original magnum round.  That's why, all other varibles being equal, a 264win mag barrel will wear out faster than a 7mm rem mag which will wear out faster than a 338 win mag because all are based on the 458 win mag, which should last the longest.  Am I thinking right?

 

timber



Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/18/2007 at 00:18

ya timber you are thinking correctly if you take 4 cartrages you mentioned above they all use the same amount of powder although the

458 win mag will use a faster burning powder such as 'alliant re7' which  is a fast burning powder (the fastest of alliant 're' series of rifle powders)the

338 win mag uses allient 're19' which is much slower than 're7'

7mm remington mag works well with 're22' which in turn is slower burning than 're19' and the

264 win mag works well with 're25' which is alliants slowest powder.

 



-------------
jay


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/18/2007 at 00:21

timber

 

did you make a decision on what kind of rifle and calaber you are going to puchase?



-------------
jay


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/18/2007 at 00:48

magnums are not called magnums due to the pressure most rifle rounds weather it be 308 win 30/06 300 win mag 223 rem all run pressures in the 62000 to 65000 psi range magnums are generally related to the amount of powder that they use generally 65 grains or more powder. this is kinda were the magnum primers come into effect generally you should use a magnum primer in a case that has a powder capacity of 65 grains or more.

for example...

308 win is a standard short action cartrage it uses around 43-48g of powder

30/06 springfield. is a standard long action cartrage that uses 53-61 grains of powder

300 win mag is a long action magnum using 67 to 78g of powder

velocity is not a good indication of a magnum either take the

338 win mag its velocity is only 2700 -2900 fps but it uses 67 - 77g of powder

 

Timber rifle shooting, target shooting, reloading ,is a very fullfilling hobby. get into relaoding if you can.if your looking for a new hobbie

when you start looking into interiour and exteriour ballistics and finding out what your rifle can do at 100-1000 yards

and how it reacts to different primers powders and bullets. it gets pretty interesting. there are alot of programs out there that can help you along with handloading, ballistic tables which can give you wind drift bullet drop etc...

there is alot more out there to rifle shooting than most people think.

good luck 



-------------
jay


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/18/2007 at 08:20
Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

ok if you talking about 2-3 inch groups you can shoot a magnum pretty much till its throat is as long as its barrel and if these people are proud of there 2-3 inch groups then well good for them. and since i burn out a barrel in 308 win a year and one in 300 win mag a year .308 in sil comp and 300 at 900 yard targets. ya i have know idea what i am talking about. but then again i like to keep all my shots in a group of at least .75 of an inch at 100. and for hunting a hunting rifle should group at least 1.5 at 100y unless you are always shooting deer or what ever at exactly 100 with no wind or other variables. think about it if you shooting a deer with your 300 weatherby at 250 yards in a 20 mile per hour cross wind and frontal shot at deer velocity is 3200 fps 180g bullet .475 bc,(nos partition) wind drift alone is 7.4 inches at 250 yards. now wich way is that bullit going to go. to the left? to the right? by the time it hits that deer your shooting at it may be 10 inches to the left or to the right so this is acceptable mmmm ok. the point is to be as a responsable hunter should be removing as many variables out of the equation as possible. 

so instead of calling a barrel burnt out lets call it "the barrel has retired its repeatible accuracy but it still ok for huntin". 

weather lazz shoots its ammo from 3000 feet or 10 feet the difference is only 80 fps

and there velocities are from a 27 inch barrels for there long actions and 24 inch barrels for there short actions.

and yes 1000 is the magic number. no no its actually 1001 or maby its 999 i cant remember.

magazine writers. they only write what the sponcering company wants the people to hear. there like used car salesmen.

and oh ya i am a big fan of weatherby. this hole forum topic is exactly what i went though about 3 weeks ago when i was looking for a new hunting rifle. (i chose the sako 300wsm).

but weatherby would have been my next choice. i really like the 30-378. barrel burner though haha

but that will be my next years hunting rifle.

 

Now lets get things into perspective.  The 2 to 3 inch groups, that some rifles out of the box and that some shooters cannot obtain, were obtained with 5000 rounds through a 300 Wby. magnum.  Point is that while some would callled the barrel burned out, you are right it has been used to the point accuracy has suffered.  Now as far as it not being able to used while hunting.  Here in NC where we do sniping most of the time for deer in fair weather at less than 300 yards, it would still be usable, but that was not the point.

 

Second, how do you burn out a .308 barrel a year unless you you doing competition shooting?

 

Third, you are completly wrong about alot of magazine writers.  There are two camps.  The old and the new.  Writers like Craig Boddington and Layne Simpson have been around a long time, with the former having been friends with Roy Weatherby.  These guys know more about the rifles than you and I combined and I do not necessarily mean the technical data, but the rifles, how they shoot, what to shoot, the bullets, what caliber to use, places to hunt, trophies taken and experiences etc.  So, do not summarily discount writers as being on the take, besides they have nothing to gain by giving me information and the names of other people to talk to.

 

Fourth, you are obviously very smart and know your ballistics.  I have been running ballistic tables for years, Exbal and Ballistics Explorer are two of my favorite and have one on my PC phone for use at the range and one on a slim line PC for the same purpose.  Most guys here like pyro6999 know this information, so while impressive as it is to spout it out, please do so when in response to a specific issue.  I am well aware of how altitude affects ballistics and actually, it is more than just the altitude but also the partial pressure of H20 that affects the said ballistics.  Regardless 80 to 125 fps can make a big difference to the guy looking through the Shooters Bible trying to make a decision on which caliber to buy, when he wants the fastest in a certain size.  That was my point there.  In addition, I am fully aware regarding the ballistics of the 30-378 Wby. as I own an Accumark in that caliber used and sighted in for long distance deer hunting.  Here in NC, we have to shoot from 8 feet above the ground, at least in the county I live in and most of the surrounding counties.  It can get pretty boring shooting/sniping deer at up to 300 yards.  Yes I am responsible and this has been discussed in other posts, so no further discussion is necessary.



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/18/2007 at 11:37

OK i was quoting the 30-378"s ballistics for pyro as he ask "if it was flat shooting"

 

i do burn out a .308 barrel a year and a 300 win mag barrel a year. i belong to 2 shooting clubs and yes i do shoot in compititions i use my .308win for slhouette and pricision marksmen. and my .300wm for long range 900m target compitition. i usually put around 4000-6000 rounds through my .308 and 2000-2500 in my .300wm a year my .300 is getting a new barrel right now (lilja 3 groove 11 twist) both rifles are remington 700p"s hs stocks. bedded and actions trued.

 

i also work part time in a gun store were i do talk to many people and many gunsmiths. i am also starting to get into gunsmithing as one of the gunsmiths in the shop is teaching me.(i need something to do besides being an industreal electrician). 

 

so here we have a couple of people with lots of experence. haha with some different opinions. but isnt deferences in opinions what makes us all individuals.

 

thanks for the conversations on this forum i found it very interesting. i posted some pics of some of my rifles and a target handguns etc. check em out if you get a chanch



-------------
jay


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/18/2007 at 11:57
Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

OK i was quoting the 30-378"s ballistics for pyro as he ask "if it was flat shooting"

 

i do burn out a .308 barrel a year and a 300 win mag barrel a year. i belong to 2 shooting clubs and yes i do shoot in compititions i use my .308win for slhouette and pricision marksmen. and my .300wm for long range 900m target compitition. i usually put around 4000-6000 rounds through my .308 and 2000-2500 in my .300wm a year my .300 is getting a new barrel right now (lilja 3 groove 11 twist) both rifles are remington 700p"s hs stocks. bedded and actions trued.

 

i also work part time in a gun store were i do talk to many people and many gunsmiths. i am also starting to get into gunsmithing as one of the gunsmiths in the shop is teaching me.(i need something to do besides being an industreal electrician). 

 

so here we have a couple of people with lots of experence. haha with some different opinions. but isnt deferences in opinions what makes us all individuals.

 

thanks for the conversations on this forum i found it very interesting. i posted some pics of some of my rifles and a target handguns etc. check em out if you get a chanch

Sorry about coming on a little strong, I just put alot of time into that little research project and found that there are so many variables that go into play regarding barrel life, I get a little defensive.  Sorry.  It is good to have you on the OT.  Sound like you know what you are talking about and will make a great addition.  Over the last 2 years, I have made a gradual transition to amateur gunsmithing and am working on another custom rifle in a .243 Winchester.  Almost finished.  I do not own a lathe, but would love to get one.  Toyed with the idea of one of those mini-lathes, but from what I have read, they run out of room just when you need it.  Besides, any barrel work, except removing metal can be done by hand with a reamer, even to increase headspace, recrowning, etc.  Looking forward to your pics.  I plan to post mine, when I am finished.



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/20/2007 at 00:35

Good postings.  I'm really enjoying the conversation and learning stuff too.

 

For a moderate recoiling magnum deer round I'm looking at the 264 Win Mag, 257 and 270 Wbys, and the 7mm Rem Mag.  Maybe the 7mm Rem Mag in the big Weatherby action so I can try out a 9-lug.  Just not many MkV models to choose from in this caliber but a lot more ammo available.

 

My original posting was about the comparison between the Sako 85 and Weatherby Mark V.  I've tried to make a list of their various features for comparison:

 

Sako 85: Cast receiver, dovetail scope mounting, safety with bolt lock (bolt release with safety on), 2-4# user adjustable trigger, detachable magazine, 70 degree bolt lift, various stocks

 

Weatherby MkV: machined receiver, standard scope base attachment (screws), safety with bolt lock (no bolt release with safety on), 3# mininum (factory recommendation)- factory set at approximately 4 pounds, hinged magazine, 54 degree bolt lift, various stocks

 

A few of my personal opinions, many of which I've already mentioned: Sako's safety seems like a better design, especially the bolt release feature.  Trigger can also be adjusted lower - no creep in my examples.  Really dislike the scope dovetail mounting, magazine takes getting used to, bolt seems a little harder to lift/cock (after firing) than one would expect but the action is smooth, buttstock is too thin/small for larger rounds - a lot of people may differ with me on the stock issue.

 

On the Weatherby:  Generally feels heavier duty than the Sako.  Bolt travel very smooth.  Seems easier to lift/cock (after firing) than the Sako, especially considering an even shorter bolt lift.  Great proven hinged magazine.  Standard scope mounting is good.  Safety on the 6-lug a little hard to operate and a little finicky (my rifles), no bolt release with safety on.  Trigger can't be adjusted as low as Sako, has a small amount of creep (my rifles).  Monte Carlo stock handles heavy recoil well but it's a love or hate design.  Can't really comment on whether some of these observations do/do not apply to the 9-lug magnum action - never owned one.

 

Please make additions and corrections.

 

timber



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/21/2007 at 20:09
to be real honest i am thinking about either a .257 wby or a .264 win mag myself.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 15:32

OK timber, here's one more to ponder if your looking for a really nice wood stocked rifle, the COOPER 52................Here is a pic of my shabby 22lr they threw together.

 



Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 19:18

Damn, I never get tired of looking at that beauty, Roy!  An absolutely SUPERB rifle, buddy!

 

Roy is right.  For what you pay for the Sako 85 and Wby MK V, you're in the general ballpark of a Cooper, and I guarantee you the average Cooper will outshoot both the average Sako and Weatherby by a considerable margin and will usually have nicer wood as well.  Cooper also has a more stringent accuracy guarantee.



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 20:05
the problem with the cooper 52 is the fact that they only show chamberings in 4 calibers 25-06 270.280 and 30-06 no mention of magnum calibers.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 20:48
Hey, I'm just trying to save the guy from disappointment. He, timber that is, stated earlier on in this thread that he was sensitive to recoil so I was not sure he had a specific caliber in mind. My point is when you consider the cost of a new Weatherby Mk5 the Cooper is right there cost wise, and miles apart from the Weatherby in terms of a true semi-custom rifle. Of course, if you like the style and shine of the Weatherby then that would be the route to go. Me, I like the classic look of the Cooper. I don't know what kind of resale value the Weatherby's have, but, I do know that the Cooper is very good and they are not a dime a dozen. I don't know if this is a fact, but there seems to be a trend in hunters going back to more sensible camberings for big game hunting these days.


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 20:59

Nice stick Roy.  Love the wood - looks custom compared to my Sako!  I didn't know they're doing repeaters - 25-06, 270, 280, 30-06 for the Model 52.  No magnums yet but I'd bet they're coming eventually.  Still a 280 would be nice!

 

On 264 Win Mag in case you guys haven't ran across this Remington is doing a special 250 run of them in their CDL SF.  I saw a couple advertised for sale on Gunsamerica.  I wish there was more factory ammo in 264.  What there is looks pretty tame.



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 21:04
its a 3 shot single stack and yes the .280 is a great caliber.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 21:10

Hey Roy yeah I've become somewhat sensitive to recoil over the years.  I'm looking at a Weatherby MkV 7mm Rem Mag because I've never owned a 9-lug and wanted to compare it to my 6-lugs for smoothness of action, safety operation, etc.  I'm thinking the 7mm Rem Mag should feel something like a 30-06.  It can't be worse than my Sako 30-06 with its' smallish buttstock.

 

I'm always on the look out for a new (to me) bolt design in a standard action size.  Have you handled or fired a Model 52 and how is the best way to buy one?  There are no dealers in my area and I heard the wait for Coopers can be long.

 

timber



Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 21:15
Any idea where I can find a close-up picture of the Cooper Model 52's receiver/action online?  The Cooper website doesn't have much details.


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: October/22/2007 at 21:20
Thanks timber. I was just trying to give you another option in that price catagory. I have handled a Cooper 52 in 280 Ackley, a Custom Classic, and it is a real fine gun to say the least. You really have to have one in your hands to appreciate the fit and  finish of these. I know they are not cheap, but, if you order one you will have a year to save. For me, in that particular rifle, I wouldn't care if magnums are not available yet. Classic lines call for classic cartridges. Make mine a 280 or an 06 and I'll be a happy camper.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 07:26

Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Thanks timber. I was just trying to give you another option in that price catagory. I have handled a Cooper 52 in 280 Ackley, a Custom Classic, and it is a real fine gun to say the least. You really have to have one in your hands to appreciate the fit and  finish of these. I know they are not cheap, but, if you order one you will have a year to save. For me, in that particular rifle, I wouldn't care if magnums are not available yet. Classic lines call for classic cartridges. Make mine a 280 or an 06 and I'll be a happy camper.

 

I second that sentiment.  A man after my own heart!  I have 2 Cooper Varmint rifles, and a buddy of mine has 2 more.  All 4 are the most accurate factory rifles I've ever fired, bar none.  You will not find another factory rifle that will beat the average Cooper in the accuracy department.  The fit and finish is impeccable if you like satin oil finished stocks, real hand checkering, and metal and wood fitted by hand.  I'm not real crazy about Cooper's safety and bolt stop (both seem a little flimsy to me), but everything else about the rifle is superb.  The triggers are adjustable down to about 1.5 lbs.  They are a little expensive, but when you compare what you get to any other semi-custom rifle, you really get a lot for your money!  I guarantee you you wouldn't be disappointed, timber!



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 07:59
steyr arms also makes some really nice rifles (in my opinion.) check them out they have very nice wood (if you like wood) and there pro hunter has a very unique style. i found it to be very comfortable. they are also susposed to be very accurate.. i haver never heard of one not being accurate.

-------------
jay


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 08:10
Cooper is a nice rifle, as well is a Kimber and Steyr.  But, then again you are straying from your initial considerations and the other options do not stop there.  I think the Cooper and Kimber are great rifle, but do not believe they are better than a Sako or Weatherby by any means.  Finn is right, you will not see one very often, but where I live, I never see a Weatherby, occasionally a Sako and one Cooper and one Kimber.  99% of the time it is a Browning or Remington, just like Leupold scopes.  The Cooper and Kimber may be more accurate out of the box, but that may have more to do with the non-magnum caliber.  Weatherby will further customize your rifle, in a Mark V to guarantee to shoot sub-moa, if you wish, in their magnum calibers.  Cooper, from what I understand, has a somewhat flimsy firing pin, which I would replace, at the outset.  This is not my first hand knowledge, but I believe and I could be wrong, but something I learned from Rifledude, he knows much more about those rifles.

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 08:12
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

OK timber, here's one more to ponder if your looking for a really nice wood stocked rifle, the COOPER 52................Here is a pic of my shabby 22lr they threw together.

 

That is one beautiful rifle, Finn.



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 12:23

I can't tell from the few pictures (nothing on their website either) I've seen of Model 52's what kind of safety and bolt stop/release they have.  Is it a wing safety?  Is the release/stop located on the receiver in a similar location as a Browning A-Bolt? 

 

I'd like to do more research on these as I didn't even know Cooper did a repeater.  They certainly emphasize nice wood.  And their accuracy has been well publicized for years.  But I've never seen or handled any Cooper, let alone fired one.  And a one year wait is also a challenge.

 

What do you guys think of the Mark V Fibermark in a 7mm Rem Mag as a way to try out the big magnum action in a not so big magnum caliber?  I didn't care for the wood Sporter and the Deluxe (or Ultramark Smile) isn't available in that caliber.

 

Timber



Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 15:57

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Cooper, from what I understand, has a somewhat flimsy firing pin, which I would replace, at the outset.  This is not my first hand knowledge, but I believe and I could be wrong, but something I learned from Rifledude, he knows much more about those rifles.

 

Not the firing pin, the bolt stop pin.

 

Just giving timber more options.  All of the aforementioned rifles are good.

 

However, accuracy-wise, regardless of caliber chosen, Coopers will usually be more accurate than other factory rifles because they use match grade barrels, including Sako, Weatherby, and Kimber.  Accuracy at a comparatively reasonable price was the very foundation Cooper was created upon in the first place.  No not Hart, Shilen, Lilja level barrels, but the Wilson air gaged barrel they use is pretty darn good for the price of the rifle.



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 16:38
Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

I can't tell from the few pictures (nothing on their website either) I've seen of Model 52's what kind of safety and bolt stop/release they have.  Is it a wing safety?  Is the release/stop located on the receiver in a similar location as a Browning A-Bolt? 

 

I'd like to do more research on these as I didn't even know Cooper did a repeater.  They certainly emphasize nice wood.  And their accuracy has been well publicized for years.  But I've never seen or handled any Cooper, let alone fired one.  And a one year wait is also a challenge.

 

I think a little clarification on the Cooper bolt stop is in order.  First, yes, they are on the opposite side of the receiver as the bolt handle, in the same location as a Browning A-Bolt.  Like the A-Bolt, the Cooper bolt stop is a rectangular pivoting button. 

 

What I mean about the bolt stop pin being flimsy is that unlike some bolt stops where the actual stop is a beefy steel blade, the Cooper bolt stop (on their centerfires) is a small diameter dowel pin that protrudes through the receiver into the bolt lug race, and it's a separate piece from the bolt stop button.  In actual use on a hunting rifle, this may never pose a problem, but on a varmint rifle where you do a lot of rapid shooting and therefore are prone to open the bolt rather briskly in the heat of the moment, it can break fairly easily.  One of my buddies and I discovered this the hard way with our M21 rifles while shooting a very large prairie dog town.  He broke his bolt stop pin 3 times on 2 different rifles after slamming the bolt open a few hundred times.  Depending on your perspective, this may be a minor criticism, because if you don't make a habit of slamming the bolt open hard, you probably won't have a problem.  Still, it's worth mentioning.

 

The Cooper safety is a 2-position pivoting button located on the bolt handle side of the tang, like a Remington 700.  It is connected to a linkage that blocks trigger travel only.  It's essentially the same design as the Kimber of Oregon M82, which I believe it was modeled after, and basically functions the same way as a Rem 700 safety.  It isn't by any means my favorite design, but it it's smooth operating and fairly silent.

 

You don't necessarily have to wait a year to get one, though.  You can sometimes find one for sale at gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.com.  In addition, the Cabelas near me has some Cooper rifles in stock.  You can also call Cooper for a dealer near you that may have exactly what you're looking for in stock.

 

As for worrying that you might not like it after handling and shooting one, if you like accurate, nice looking rifles, you're not likely to be disappointed.  However, like Kimber, these rifles are for the person who prefers more "classic" lines and satin oil wood finishes.  If you prefer gloss finished wood and monte carlo style stocks, Cooper doesn't offer that style.



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 17:38

timber if you get a weatherby get a weatherby caliber. 7mm wm instead of 7mm rm



-------------
jay


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 20:38
Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

timber if you get a weatherby get a weatherby caliber. 7mm wm instead of 7mm rm

 

i agree with you 100% one of my biggest pet peeves is that if you wanna buy a weatherby rifle dont waste your money by buying a standard caliber.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: October/23/2007 at 20:40

I always slam my bolt open and close after I make a hunting shot.  But I don't varmint hunt so I won't be doing it that often.  I do like classic wood stocks.  I'll check them out online.

 

thanks,

Timber

 

 

 

 



Posted By: storm2844
Date Posted: November/12/2007 at 20:39
i had to get rid of my sako 85 in 300wsm due to extraction problems the distributer refunded me all my cash. and i puchased a weatherby ultralight in 7mm weatherby mag. much happier with the weatherby. but the sako is still very nice.

-------------
jay


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: November/13/2007 at 11:46

Originally posted by storm2844 storm2844 wrote:

i had to get rid of my sako 85 in 300wsm due to extraction problems the distributer refunded me all my cash. and i puchased a weatherby ultralight in 7mm weatherby mag. much happier with the weatherby. but the sako is still very nice.

Nice rifle, I saw it on the other thread.  While I have never owned a Sako, I have never been disappointed with a Wby. 



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: November/27/2007 at 22:57
Hey storm2844.  Tell me about the extraction problem on your 300 wsm Sako 85.  Is it caliber specific?  Thanks.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net