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If your life depended on it !?!?!

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Topic: If your life depended on it !?!?!
Posted By: Stephanie
Subject: If your life depended on it !?!?!
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 14:29

Like most people in the military, their lives depend on optics and firearms...

 

For a civilian that was facing a life or death situation, and you only had one chance to make the right choice

No matter what the price is!

 

Which gun and rifle would you put on the line?

 

Which scope would you choice??

 



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"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales



Replies:
Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 14:32
what are we doing with the choices, are we defending our homes or are we being put out in the field with a platoon??

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Stephanie
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 14:34

This would be your home, family and all the things around you that you love dearly...

 



-------------
"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 14:39

h&k usp 45 nice fit in my smaller hands, open sights.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 14:47

Mossberg 500 persuader with 00 buck - just the ticket for repelling boarders!

p.s. no scope required



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God save the Empire!


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 15:34
Hello Stephanie for CQ defense it would be a AK74 M 5.45  with a S&B short dot and a Bizon 7.62x25MM on the side.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:01

Goddess, I think the best weapon to defend my home would be a 12ga. shotgun and buckshot.

 

Are you looking to "gear up"??



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:03
Stephanie; Glocks, H&K USP's, Colt AR15's and H&K 91. I've got choices and I am quite comfortable. Also Garand, M1911 and BHP, too. They all work. As for as optics, none on these guns, brick sh*thouses don't have glass windows. Remy 870 for spray and pray. Handguns are always the last choice.


Posted By: TPS_Phil
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:12
  Glock...

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We refuse to compromise our quality for pricing.
100% USA Made.


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 18:20
Reminton 870 with 18" barrel, 7 shot, Surefire weapn light, loaded with #1 buckshot.


Posted By: sandsock
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 19:05
Mossberg 9200 Jungle Gun 12 ga with birdshot field loads....Vang Comp Rem 870 with Surefire is also available but that will be heading back to Hans for some sight work (f/s replacement).


Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 22:23

MP5 with an aimpoint, with full spray switch

 

If my target was armored I would go with an FN P90

 

[I have never even seen either of them, but I just can't pass up the chance to pick a sub-machinegun]



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/19/2007 at 22:30

Hello Stephanie !!  Anybody answering this question for the lady that recomends the 12ga. has nailed it!!  IMO !!!  An autoloading 12ga. , ya just point and shoot will clear anybodies nightmares from the room or doorway and it stays basicly in the house!!!  If your mother-inlaw lives next-door she will like it also..  and besides, when you just wake up who wants to or can see your invader that well to take carefull aim at him or her????  Just remember what your families sillohuette looks like..

 

 Hot 30



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30


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 05:49
Okay, one gun, HK91


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 08:07

The Mossberg Persuader can be had in 20 gauge as well for those who might like a slimmer gun/less recoil.  Birdshot OK for close in work (my preference in birdshot would be #2 or BB) if over penetration a concern. other wise stick to 2 3/4,  00 Buck.  Federal makes reduced recoil loads  - like geting hit with nine 9mm rounds.

 

Most of the time that big hole in the end pointed in the right direction should disuade a fight!



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God save the Empire!


Posted By: 1stscope
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 10:16

One firearm for anything ? A 12ga 870 will do well for short range; slugs for big stuff, birdshot for birds, buckshot for 2 or 4 legged varmits, but I'd take a rifle as I like a bit more reach. A .223 is attractive as you can carry more ammo and still handle most things that you'd be likely to run into, but I'm partial to the 30.06 as it handles varmits to bear, and I used it on the target range for a few years. On the range you pretty much use a Model 70 if aren't shooting service rifle, so I'm partial to that too. Aperture sights were fine for working up loads, letting me tell the difference between sub MOA and MOA plus loads, it worked fine on the range out to 600 yards, but my eyes aren't as good as they use to be up close so I'd probably use a scope. The scope would probably be the one that I just received in the mail this week, a Sightron S2 1.5-6, as I don't want to give up the close shots (the scope focuses really close, even better than I expected) or the instant target aquisition that I'm use to from using aperure sights. 

 

 



Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 17:33

1.  If the fight is both inside and outside the house (a mob, for example):

     Mini-14 with 30-round clips and a Weaver Grand Slam 1.75-5x scope.

 

2.  Inside the house:

     Glock 23 (.40 caliber) with large capacity mags, and laser sight if my wife is doing the shooting.

 



Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 18:00

Steph,

For me, I use a Glock 23.  For a woman other than my wife, I mean one that can't shoot. I go with Mwyates.  Normally a rack of the slide will get most folks to turn tail.  If I didn't have to be concerned about the law suites afterwards a supressed MP5 with sub-sonic rounds. Why hurt your ears, even with your mouth open, jaw jutted out and screamin' like a banchee you'll loose your ability to hear after a couple rounds in a hallway. Oh, and empty the weapon, one round right between the eyes means your going to the big house. 



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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 18:43
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

Hello Stephanie !!  Anybody answering this question for the lady that recomends the 12ga. has nailed it!!  IMO !!!  An autoloading 12ga. , ya just point and shoot will clear anybodies nightmares from the room or doorway and it stays basicly in the house!!!  If your mother-inlaw lives next-door she will like it also..  and besides, when you just wake up who wants to or can see your invader that well to take carefull aim at him or her????  Just remember what your families sillohuette looks like..

 

 Hot 30

 

It don't work quite that way.  At ten feet your pattern will be about an inch.  At twenty feet it still is about 4".  If you use some sort of NFA shotgun then, you get some manuverablity.  Your pattern will open up, but at close quaters is still pretty small. You have the NFA hassle to be legal.  Auto gauges in NFA are finicky, high maintaince problem children from the ones I have seen. Something like a 14" 870 with a flashlight forend, and Ghost rings is a better choice.

 

Any  non -NFA shotgun is too long to work up close.  You end up with the thing pointed at your toes most of the time. Now If you have some sort of "fort" made up of some patio blocks glued to some plywood like a sort of police shield and can keep an area covered with the shotgun ok...



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 18:58
Originally posted by Stephanie Stephanie wrote:

Like most people in the military, their lives depend on optics and firearms...

 

For a civilian that was facing a life or death situation, and you only had one chance to make the right choice

No matter what the price is!

 

Which gun and rifle would you put on the line?

 

Which scope would you choice??

 

 

A better AK, I want some thing that can saw up a car.  I want car suppresion on the driver

 A Valmet or othe AK varient would be ok, IF YOU COULD FIND ONE.  A FAL would warrent points too.  You can find the FAL and mags now. 

 

My freinds who collect exotic firearms have let me use some of the "industry standards" like the MP-5, UZI, Thompson, Sten, AUG, MP-38, MP-40, and M-4. For inside the house I would want the UZI, but like the MP-5 better overall.   

 

No scope, but dot or night vision would get points. Flash light forends rule



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 19:01
Originally posted by Stephanie Stephanie wrote:

Which gun and rifle would you put on the line?

 

 

 

After looking at this, your statement would imply two fireams is that correct? 



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 22:08

hey SILVER, 12ga. works for me..  I didnt see anything in Stephanies question about sawing up the bad guys car??

                 See ya in the forum, HOT 30



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30


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 22:53
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

hey SILVER, 12ga. works for me..  I didnt see anything in Stephanies question about sawing up the bad guys car??

                 See ya in the forum, HOT 30

 

There were some neighbors that were into free enterprise pharma distributership recently... 

 

So you have to understand concealement  verses cover  so by denying other people cover you change the tactical situation. So with the wheel man gone and the cops coming what would you do?



-------------
"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/20/2007 at 23:18

Why worry about NFA if your in the middle of the street sawing up cars??  I didnt know  Stephanies situation was in the middle of the street.. Her question, IMO was rather generic in context, tipycal.. unless you have more details on her delema than I do..  18.25"  patterns allittle better  at 10 feet than 4"..  Where does the conceilmant come into play??

 

                                   30



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30


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 13:06
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

Why worry about NFA if your in the middle of the street sawing up cars??  I didnt know  Stephanies situation was in the middle of the street.. Her question, IMO was rather generic in context, tipycal.. unless you have more details on her delema than I do..  18.25"  patterns allittle better  at 10 feet than 4"..  Where does the conceilmant come into play??

 

                                   30

 

Your the one making things up about being outside in the middle of the street, not me...

 

I can work this as urban, suburban, or rural.  It still workes out to speed, shock and violence of action.   If you can suppress the cover then you can suppress the fire.

 

I've patterned my shotguns with OO and # 4 buck.  I been in classes where patterning was a part of the class and watched other shooters patterns from regular guns and NFA guns. YMMV 

 

If you do not understand concealment or cover, then I can not expect you to understand movement either. 



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 14:53
 works without much resistance

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 19:30

Let's see...........

 

Problem inside the house.  That means we've pretty much screwed up every basic principle of home security and some person or persons has gained entry.

M4 carbine with collapsible stock. It stays bedside. It is the epitome of short and manueverable. No sights required.  It's a point and click situation.

Mag capacity. 

Close range terminal energy.

Lack of penetration of structure.  My neighbors ain't worth killing.............

 

Immedietly outside the home

12 gauge shotgun,

9 shot or better

backbored, forcing cone lengthened , fitted stock for point shooting.  Patterns 00 buck 18 inches or less at 45 yards.

Also deploys slugs for light armor ( cars and windshields )

 

Beyond that;

Cell phone, let the fuzz deal with it.

 

Always;

Sig 226 9mm.  Proper ammunition onboard.

 

Give me a choice of only two and I'll keep the pistol and trade all else for an AR10 with a scope.  No reason I'd need to solve an 800 yard problem but I could  

 

Stephanie I worry about you at times 



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 21:47

SILVER,  unless the car and driver you mentioned on your post of

   POSTED: 20 JAN/2007 at 18:58  was in the house, guess I cant read either !!

 Mike Macdonald explained the conditions on topic to a better degree, Id still use the 12 ga. in the house though!          ; 30



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30


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 22:12

Hot30,

 

I decided against the 12 gauge inside for a couple reasons;

 

As I described, the problem is that people not welcome are inside your dwelling.  They have to leave but the may have friends with them.  Now we have a multiple target situation.  I am not the fastest guy on the planet but after a  full years practice inside the house with a 12 gauge I cannot aquire multiple targets fast enough to survive a fight; there is too much length and weight to allow quick target to target transistion.  That does not even begin to address the recoil aspect.  Bear in mind I'm 6 feet tall and weigh 300 pounds, and the recoil still presents itself as a factor in speed and aquisition.  We're also wasting time delivering way too much energy on a soft target when we can do the same damage with a lighter weapon.  Remember, inside the home we want dead people, not deaf people.

The M4 allows multi shot target aquisition without the burdens of weight, length or recoil to slow me down.

Inside the home, 42 feet longest hallway,  I can aquire and hit multiple times as many targets as present themselves inside the space available.  Should the M4 run dry for some reason I can always drop it and transition to the 9mm, leaving the other guy with an empty weapon which also makes a very poor club.

 

Outside the house we're after accuracy, speed, and energy because the distances have increased.  I spent alot of time and some cash just to satisfy my curiosity and went to the junk yard...........er.....auto recycling center out here in the country and bought and shot up several cars.  I am really unimpressed with the mousegun, the 124 grain 9mm load out performs it on windshields, side glasss and side panels.

the 12 guage with slugs is king.

 

Again, give me just two and it's the AR10 and the 9mm.  the neighbors are 1/2 mile away anyway

 

Man that was long winded.

 



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 22:53

Mike you do say it better.. My neighbors are closer and I dont shoot "buck", I use BBs and yes "slugs" are king, the internal guard-rail of a car door doesnt stop it.. Try using full sized gabarge cans, the metal ones, there cheaper..  You are open minded

 

      30



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30


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 23:08
Benelli 12 bore tactical (the same one USMC uses)
AK47 (killed more people than any other weapon and it always works)
Kimber 1911 45 acp (pokes big holes)


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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/22/2007 at 00:32

Rootman, go BENELLI  !!!!!!!!!  If you think he or she is behind a door or wall, just move them!!!  My ol-lady puked when I took a hack-saw to mine..Benellis dont jam..

 

                     30

 

        who ever said , "if its too long", HACK-IT...  Laws dont apply when it comes to my family!!!!!!!!!!



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30


Posted By: 4T570
Date Posted: January/22/2007 at 06:31
rem 870, 12 ga, #1 buck


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/22/2007 at 07:52
I puke thinking about even doing that to my SBE. I guess it has too many turkeys and waterfowl under it's belt. It is at the front of the safe, that's for sure. So is one of my 870's, but barrels are comparatively cheap for those.


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 11:16

Originally posted by 4T570 4T570 wrote:

rem 870, 12 ga, #1 buck

 

+1



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 11:21
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

Rootman, go BENELLI  !!!!!!!!!  If you think he or she is behind a door or wall, just move them!!!  My ol-lady puked when I took a hack-saw to mine..Benellis dont jam..

 

                     30

 

If it mechanical it will break.  It has been a while since I was in a Shotgun class, but the only two guns that did not go down were mine and a state troopers newer 870's.  That included a couple of  Benellis and 1100's YMMV



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 11:48
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

        who ever said , "if its too long", HACK-IT...  Laws dont apply when it comes to my family!!!!!!!!!!

 

Ten years and ten thousand and that does not even get to the legal fees at 200 an hour.  That's what got Vickie Weaver killed... I would have to question the judgement of someone who would even suggest breaking federal law in a public forum.

 

Let's just say for the sake of instruction someone does shoot some one with a non-NFA compliant firearm...  

 

You go from whatever hassles your local police department and prosocuter may want to put you through to cover their backs; and the resulting legal fees in a "clear" shooting. I figure It will cost me at least 5 thousand retainer in a justified shooting. Any sort of creative problem solving will cost extra

 

To now being charged with a federal crime with a circus of pleas.   Can you put up a ten thousand dollar retainer? Your lawyer will want to get paid up front.  What are you going to trade for jail time?  You might want to see if your lawyer will take your guns for payment as you are not going to be able to keep them.

 

Perhaps some of our friends in law enforcement could cite some examples?

 



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Stephanie
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:46
Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

 

Stephanie I worry about you at times 

 

Here are a few reason I asked these questions.For a man this situation would be handled a lot better then how a women would handle it..Unlike the women that found the guy in her closet and shot him!  

 

Right?  "unless she is trained for this kind of stuff"

 

Every night what goes through my mind is what would I do if someone did brake in?!?!?

 

May be stupid, but real concerns!

 

  • Do I go for the gun?
  • Do I stay put "don't move"
  • Call 911  That's a givin I would do that any ways!
  • Do I hide? <----Yeah right I see that happening.
  • Exit the house?

 What would be a safe move..

 

 

 



-------------
"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:48
if you have a gun grab it and call 911 but make sure and tell them you have a gun, otherwise barney fife will show up and pop you instead of the bad guy.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Stephanie
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:53

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

if you have a gun grab it and call 911 but make sure and tell them you have a gun, otherwise barney fife will show up and pop you instead of the bad guy.

 

See I did not know that!   Thanks!



-------------
"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales


Posted By: jonbravado
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 12:56

shotgun would be my 'street sweeper' for home defense - remington 1100, 5 buckshot locked and loaded.

 

rifle would be a sako TRG-S 30.06 w/ a fixed power 4x scope. failsafe as the ammo allows. and deadly accurate out to 300+ yards.

 

pistol would be a 6inch barrell S&W 357 magnum w/ starfire hollowpoints - nickel w/ wooden grips.

 

J

 

 



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 13:00
i your case being a woman, no offense i hope, you arent going to want to deal with something like a 12 gauge in a pinch, you dont want the recoil some thing small like a .357 sig in a smaller frame like a springfield xd pistol would be niceand light on the recoil and you could keep shooting and not notice much recoil imo!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Stephanie
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 13:16

No offense taken!  Like I said ealier. A women would handle it in a different way..

 

How about a .380?

 

 Would this be a good choice?



-------------
"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 13:27
the .357 sig is a hot little round the .380 will work well too, i just like the .357 sig great performance small case. the .380 has got to be one the most popular with the ladies.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 13:32

This is opinion only 'cause I hope never to have to make it a regular practice.  My thoughts on priorities are:

1. prevent the fight if possible

2. if above doesn't work, stop the fight NOW

 

Big psychological edge to pointing any weapon at someone but more so from all I have ever read if it's the hole in the end of a shotgun (assuming not in total darkeness).  Would probably give a goblin time to rethink not a good thing to pursue their actions.

 

If you have to pull thge trigger a 380 head shot ok, but would think iffy if a body shot & give more time to return fire.  Buckshot in the body would probably stop the argument.

 

Just my opinion.



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God save the Empire!


Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 13:58

SILVER, you can question me all you want sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  When it comes to my family the law wouldnt be there quick enough!!!!!!!!  As you can see , there are others who think as I do..You made your point SIR..  But what I do inside of my home in reguard to my families safety is not your concern!!  You ,"SIR" are narrow minded, you should make suggestions on this forum, not CRAM your ideals down the forums "muzzle" !!Now I do realize I may get some "slapping" from the manner in wich I address you "sir",  but I will take that risk!!!  You "sir" are beating a dead horse...

 

Hot 30

  PS, street sweepers work also!!



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30


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:16
Originally posted by Stephanie Stephanie wrote:

No offense taken!  Like I said ealier. A women would handle it in a different way..

 

How about a .380?

 

 Would this be a good choice?

 

Some .380's are better than others.  A lot of it has to do with how it fits your hand.  The thing is most .380 are straight blow back.  This means you get a little more recoil.  It also means that the barrel will not unlock if you have to make contact. Like sticking a gun into a gut.

 

If you have longer fingers then a Sig 230/232 would make a great choice.  A Little shorter finger, then the Walther makes a good choice. I'm a bit POed at the quality of the Walthers I've handled recently, there are lots of sharp edges. 

 

The next players in this field are the Beretta's and their Browning half brother. High marks for fit and finish!  Good trigger.  Too many safety features. They are a bit bulky and about the same size a Colt Officers model.  Nickel is avaible, but stainless is not.  The shrinking dollar is pushing their prices up.  I have a 85 Cheetah that I have just bought.  The double stack versions I'd think about a getting a tuned Hi-Power.

 

CZ is the final player as Colts are out of production and the prices are up on even the crapy ones here.  CZ is a double stack gun and very close to the Browning .380.  Yes, there is the Bersa, hey for the money I can get a CZ.

 

I put it down to Sig and Beretta.  The Sig was slimer and lighter, but I did not like the sights, the trigger or the grip. The Sigs trigger had a longer gritter pull over the dozen I handled, kinda like a gritty tooth paste.  The Beretta held a couple more shots had a shorter smoother trigger, better sights, and  the forestrap and backstrap had verticle serations for a better grip and was not that much wider.  



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Stephanie
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:35

I plan on shooting a .380 this weekend.. I hope it's something I can grip easy, and get comfortable with.

This is something I plan on keeping around the house. I'm sure it's a lot better then mace!

 



-------------
"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:36
just dont be affraid to try different calibers find one you can control very well that fits your hands well and everything will be fine.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:48
Originally posted by Stephanie Stephanie wrote:

Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

 

Stephanie I worry about you at times 

 

Here are a few reason I asked these questions.For a man this situation would be handled a lot better then how a women would handle it..Unlike the women that found the guy in her closet and shot him!  

 

Right?  "unless she is trained for this kind of stuff"

 

Every night what goes through my mind is what would I do if someone did brake in?!?!?

 

May be stupid, but real concerns!

 

  • Do I go for the gun?
  • Do I stay put "don't move"
  • Call 911  That's a givin I would do that any ways!
  • Do I hide? <----Yeah right I see that happening.
  • Exit the house?

 What would be a safe move..

 

 

 

 

You have to plan for a couple of ways to handle things.  The biggest thing is to get things handled quickly. Where you are at in the house and what you are doing will affect your responce.

 

Let's start with some light reading: The Truth About Self-Protection by Massad Ayoob,

Family Protection Guide by Craig Fox Huber from Wolfe Publishing, Affordable Security by Steven Hampton from Paladin-press.  Read this stuff, then progess to Jeff Cooper 

 

Now, you need to make up some check lists so you can put a plan in place.  The Real basic parts of it are detection and buying time.  You need time to respond.  You need to map out your points of entry.  You need to map out choke points.  Take a look at the shots you need to practice. Can you lock things down and set up "fire" walls or a safe room? 

 

For example a solid core bedroom door with an extra lock and a peep hole combined with a  couple of lights in the hall that you control from inside the bedroom is a fort in most places.  A simple motion detector night light in a hall is a big help.  A simple wedge for the door is a big help.  

 

 

 



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 14:50
i'd buy that

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 16:37

Haven't read all the post on this tread, but I agree with silvers last post.  Get informed before bad thing happen, under stand what you can do, what you are capable of doing, think things through and then practice that.  A plan that is not drilled is not used. Think of all options while you have a clear and focused mind, practice it until in the fog of trouble its second nature.  Thats the only way to stay healthly when things go south.  Trust me on this, I know from first hand experience.  I'm not a fan of a .380, stupid people may think you can't hurt them with it, forcing you to shoot them.  I like something that is going to make the crazed biker think you are bigger and badder than he is.

12 Ga. pump all the way.  Police forces use them not as much for firepower but the physiological firepower it brings to the table. At any rate use what you feel comfortable with.  The key is to know what your going to do before bad thing happen and follow that plan.



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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 17:14

 

 

One of the other things that you need to do is get an understanding of your "threat level."   Let me give some examples:

 1) A general concern about theft

2)) A defined concern like I have a big collection guns that someone would steal.

3) A more directed personal concern such as a manager in company with labor problems, A person holding elected office,  or someone who has higher profile such as a local TV personality.

4) A person who has had a threat made against them, such as the "crazy ex"

5) A person with some sort of special need, such as a bank manager, doctor, or pharmacist.

 

These people all have protectives need that differ.  Which means the answer to their problems differ. As you can define the problem then it is eaiser to work with thought the cost may be greater. As the problem is defined then the answer can be tailored to it.



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 20:18

Stephanie,

 

I'm going to offer you the very best advice I can on "what does a girl do?"

 

I want you, since you are obviously very concerned with the situation, to go see Bill Davison at TacPro Shooting Center.

 

I have never, ever, met anyone more qualified AND adept at training for personal protection than Bill.

This man operates in a no hype BS free environment completely dedicated to making certain you as a student understand exactly how these things are dealt with.

 

I would willingly trust the man with my life.   Moreover I would implicitly trust Bill with the lives of my family.

 

The only other man I would trust in such manner is the guy you met this morning.



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 22:24

OH and SILVER, if you read more carefully, you would see that your lashing is unnessasary like you sir!!  Take a class on "legal" barrel length.. In most states it reads 18".. If you care to quote me on my , I stated 18.25"..  go look or come back with more....................................

30



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30


Posted By: Mithran
Date Posted: January/23/2007 at 23:47

Mike hit the nail on the head.  Plenty of places to go down there in Texas, and soak in the knowledge.  Not a big fan of 9mm.  Being a woman the slim grip of a nice single stack 1911 might fit your hand really well.  Mine is loaded with 165gr +P Power Ball's, leaving the barrel at 1225 fps.  Feeds like FMJ ammo expands like a hollowpoint.  Went out shooting steel and holy f*ck those rounds made a louder ting than 230gr FMJ PMC rounds.  A bright flashlight, Surefire G2 is my choice.  I would never ever go room to room to see what that bump in the night was, unless I had kids (which I don't) in another room, in which I would go straight to their room.  You'll have no idea who or how many perps are in you house.  My plan, grab the gun, flashlight and phone, dial 911 and defend myself if necissary.  Mike said it best though, if they go in then you already failed the first rule of home defense, keeping your home secure.

 

If you want a long gun I'd say a nice 20gauge shotgun loaded with #4 shot alternated every other rounds with 3/4 ounce slugs will do ya pretty darn good down the hallway.  Not a lot of recoil and plenty of knockdown in close quarters.



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Fight Smarter
Not Harder


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/24/2007 at 05:40
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

 18.25"  patterns allittle better  at 10 feet than 4".. 

                                   30

 

This statement as written can be read to say that an 18.25 inch pattern at 10 feet is better than 4 inch (pattern).  Sir, it was your wording (or lack of) that confussed the issue.

 

The law governing barrel lenght is federal, whatever state law is in addition to federal law.  The BAFTE would be happy to send you a copy of the law and how the courts understand that part of the law.  It makes for interesting reading. Please note, that the law, as written, the 18 inches is AFTER the chamber.

 

It is a lot easier to work some over time and get a factory barrel, than to have to deal with all the issues you get from cutting the barrel yourself.  We get back to the 200 dollar a hour legal fees.  Ya, you might save a hundred bucks, but do you want to be jacked around by the cops, the DA, all at 200 dollars an hour?  Maybe an extra day in jail while it all gets straightened up, at 200 dollars an hour?

  

Sooner or later most cops get sued because somebody did not like their treatment. It is a free country and people can and do sue with or without cause.  Ask them who they got to defend them and how much it cost.

 

I have advised people that they should be a as legal as possable.  You don't want the hole getting any deeper than you have to. Sometimes that may mean taking some extra steps.  We keep becoming a more and more "oprah" nation. If you are not there yet,locally, you are only one or two election cycles from it.



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: January/24/2007 at 20:03

At "inside the house" ranges, a 20 gauge will work as well as a 12 gauge with a lot less recoil.  Important, if there is a lady "behind the wheel."

 

The .380 is an "iffy" caliber.  A .357, .40, or .45 provides a lot more stopping power.  If you choose an automatic, be sure to hold on tight.  They can (and do) jam when held with a loose hold by an inexperienced shooter.

 

A Smith & Wesson Model 60 3" .357 revolver with adjustable sights is a good, reliable gun for a small hand, and has great stopping power.  If you are planning on a small, light, inexpensive gun for pocket carry (concealed carry permit), it's hard to beat a Kel-Tec .32 with Winchester silvertips.  



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/24/2007 at 20:52
Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

 

 

The .380 is an "iffy" caliber.  A .357, .40, or .45 provides a lot more stopping power.  If you choose an automatic, be sure to hold on tight.  They can (and do) jam when held with a loose hold by an inexperienced shooter.

 

A Smith & Wesson Model 60 3" .357 revolver with adjustable sights is a good, reliable gun for a small hand, and has great stopping power.  If you are planning on a small, light, inexpensive gun for pocket carry (concealed carry permit), it's hard to beat a Kel-Tec .32 with Winchester silvertips.  

 

    Have you ever shot something at night in an enclosed space with a 3" .357?  The gap of a revolver really adds to the problem.  The extra powder that is not getting burned makes things even worst. You wind up flash banging yourself.

 

A lot of women can not handle the extra spring weights of a .40 or.45 slide.  They lack the up body strenght.  Your basic .380, 9mm, or .38 is the upper limit for a lot of women until they have had a lot of training. Those may be "iffy" calibers, but all handgun calibers are iffy.

 

+1 on the Kel-tec, Same for 20 gauge



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: January/24/2007 at 21:04

"Have you ever shot something at night in an enclosed space with a 3" .357?"

 

I have.

 

Given the circumstance I didn't feel the recoil, see the muzzle blast or hear the discharge.



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/24/2007 at 22:17


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30


Posted By: Chris Farris
Date Posted: January/25/2007 at 13:10
Originally posted by Stephanie Stephanie wrote:

......For a civilian that was facing a life or death situation, and you only had one chance to make the right choice

No matter what the price is!

Which gun would you put on the line?

 

Like most people have been posting, it depends on the situation.  It's tough to beat a shotgun for inside the house because the aim is a little more forgiving, working the action should send most perps running and the chances of hitting an innocent bystanders through the wall are slimmer.  On my person, I like the .32 Seecamp because of its size and weight but when clothing permits I really like my .357 Sig 229.  In my truck I love my Glock 21 (nothing says lovin' like 14 rounds of .45).

 

But my favorite all around do everything threat gun at any price would be my little MP5K briefcase.

 

 

Here is a link to one in action.  http://www.hkpro.com/video/MP5K_case.mov - http://www.hkpro.com/video/MP5K_case.mov



-------------
SWFA, Inc.
http://SWFA.com - SWFA.com
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http://www.mil-dot.com - Mil-Dot.com
http://www.samplelist.com - SampleList.com


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:46
Is that your G21 under the desk, Chris?

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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: dilligaf
Date Posted: January/25/2007 at 18:07
Originally posted by Stephanie Stephanie wrote:

Like most people in the military, their lives depend on optics and firearms...

 

For a civilian that was facing a life or death situation, and you only had one chance to make the right choice

No matter what the price is!

 

Which gun and rifle would you put on the line?

 

Which scope would you choice??

 

 

For a SHTF rig and there are no restrictions on me. A supressed FN-FAL carbine (10.5" barrel) with a railed cover & handguard using an Aimpoint M2 & (if in darkness head mounted AN-PVS-14D NVG's & a PAC-4 laser). I'd also like to have about a half dozen DefTech flash bangs. (Bad guys are easier to shoot if they are laying on the ground, disoriented, blinded, & deaf) 



Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: January/25/2007 at 19:29
Chis,
 That is wicked sick dude,
James Bond stuff doesn't count, but its cool.



Steph, Do not try that for home defense.  Even in Texas, that would be stretching it. LOL

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Stephanie
Date Posted: January/26/2007 at 08:34

Yeah I can see it now!

 

I run for my briefcase and the thief say "What do you think your gonna do with that, sale me something"?

 

LOL!   Yeah I have AMMO 1/2 off right now! Would you like to buy some? 

 

   "keep the change you filthy animal"!!!

 

dilligaf,

 

  What are DefTech flash bangs???? I might want to see him some of that as well!!

 

 



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"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/26/2007 at 08:56
i dont think you want to see the flash bangs go off cause then you will know why they call them flash bangs

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Chris Farris
Date Posted: January/26/2007 at 10:12

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Is that your G21 under the desk, Chris?

 

 

I didn't realize the picture caught my "previously top secret" under the desk mounted Glock 21.



-------------
SWFA, Inc.
http://SWFA.com - SWFA.com
http://www.swfa-ss.com - SWFA-SS.com
http://www.mil-dot.com - Mil-Dot.com
http://www.samplelist.com - SampleList.com


Posted By: dilligaf
Date Posted: January/27/2007 at 21:47

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i dont think you want to see the flash bangs go off cause then you will know why they call them flash bangs

 

Used them quite a bit over the years. Even had them used on me in training. Very effective little piece of hardware. You are correct, being in the same room when they go off is bad juju unless you know they are coming. I had one go off about five foot from me and it put me on my butt quick, fast, and in a hurry.

 

Stephanie,

 

Flash bangs are a concussion greande. They make a big bright flash and a very loud boom. It disrupts an opponents ability top see, hear, and normally disrupts their balance & sense so bad it takes a few minutes for them to regain enough composure to continue the fight. SRT & HRT teams use them a lot in forced dynamic entries and for clearing rooms where they know armed bad guys are. You do have to becareful with them because they will start fires (dont ask how I know) and can cause some pretty sevear injuries if the go off on a person. We had a guy get a prety good chunk taken out of his calf when one went off next to his leg



Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: January/28/2007 at 02:15

A .357 revolver can be loaded with anything from .38 Special target loads (or .380 equivalents) all the way up to "full house" .357 loads.

 

If goblins (Jeff Cooper term)  knowingly invade your home while you are there, you are up against evil in its purest form.  You want to use a firearm that will stop them with immediacy and certainty, whatever your choice.

 

Lots of good suggestions in these posts.  Setting up your home defense plan in advance is particularly important.  (For example, you might leave a light on in the room outside the entrance to your bedroom so that (1) you can identify a family member; and (2) any intruder is lit up as a clear target; and (3) the intruder's vision will be conditioned to light, and it will be harder for him to see you in a darkened room.)

 



Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/28/2007 at 12:30
The gun that is next to my bed at night is a Sig P220 loaded with some 230gr Gold Dot ashtrays.  My house is pretty small and has severla shrp turns with little space.  A long gun would be hard to maneuver.  I do have a Rem 870 pumpgun just in case. with a Knoxx Copstock, which makes it a little easier to maneuver.

It looks like my P220 and I are going to make a trip to Frontsight for some training in April.

ILya


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/28/2007 at 17:58
Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

A .357 revolver can be loaded with anything from .38 Special target loads (or .380 equivalents) all the way up to "full house" .357 loads.

 

 

  I have had a .357 for over twenty years, and have heard this argument before that.  My .357 is now a safe queen.  To make the .357 work you wind up with a bulky gun.  You have to spend extra time getting the trigger control down.  If you don't have alot of training time, then you will not get good results.  If you do have the training time then you can make something else work even better. 

Hot 30 and I are now in agreement

 

There is the Mars and Venus thing going on. What is high speed and low drag for Venus is a bit differant than Mars.  Over the years, I have worked with women looking for a self defence gun. It is like goldy locks, you see two extremes when they come to the range. One is has too much.  One has two little.  The .25 is too small.  The .40 or .357 is too big. 

 

The next problem is that they need a gun that they can both carry and train on.  Our guns are too PC.  Our triggers suck!!!  We have all these complicated controls. They need to be able to feed the thing without reloading to. 

 

Most women have the best "luck" with .380's like the Sig or Walther, mid-sized .38s, or a smaller 9mm like the Hi-Power.  These guns fit their hands and upper body strenght.



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/28/2007 at 18:13

 

 

Let's redefine this question a bit.  You have a thousand dollars and a three day week end to get somebody with little or no experince turn key.  At the end of this weekend they need to be able to hit a pop can at 7 yards in the dark. The thousand includes, Gun, magazines, light, carry system and ammo. (Your) Instruction time and range time are not free, but deeply discounted.

 

So how would you do it? 



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: 1stscope
Date Posted: January/29/2007 at 09:16

If home defense is the primary concern start with good locks for doors and windows, paying attention to the size of the strike plate, length of bolts/screws, maybe an extra deadbolt at shoulder height, gravel around the house to hear people walking, shrubs away from the house, good lighting for seeing who's there, maybe a barky dog, etc. Pay attention to that before relying soley upon your firearms, and you'll avoid shooting someone accidently.

 

When I was doing bullseye shooting a lot I was also doing practical pistol, and ended up with a 6in .357 with a pretty light trigger for both. A .45 was used by almost all 'serious' shooters, but pistol was just fun for me and I didn't want to drop the cash for a tuned .45, and I noticed that they were often 'quirky' (not reliable). Anyway, I was handy with it (if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy :^). 

 

One night at about 11:00pm someone started banging very loudly on the door and was yelling to open the damn door. In a few seconds I popped in some hollowpoints and had the door covered. I recall having instinctively cocked the revolver, and I let the hammer back down as it was a very light target trigger. The door was holding while the banging and yelling was going on, so I positioned myself next to the door, and asked (yelled) who they were. They just kept yelling and banging, so I asked if they knew where they were. Looking thru the peephole I saw a drunk stagger back, heard say 'oh s***', and stagger off. If the door hadn't held the guy would be dead, for sure, and I'd be living with the fact that I had killed someone for no good reason.



Posted By: Stephanie
Date Posted: January/29/2007 at 10:08

Yeah, that would be a very scary thought! I have heard a lot of stories like that..

 

 

The funniest story I heard was when my father in law was driving a truck when he was younger. Well he need to make a pit stop at the rest stop. As he was using the rest room, he noticed a peep hole, and seen someone looking through it.Finishing what he was doing, he then went back to the truck to get his gun. When he got back in there to "use the restroom" he seen someone peeking again, stuck the gun in the peep hole and told him to get out and go  outside. Then made him take off his clothes, and told him to run. As he ran he shot in the air, it scared the guy have to death....

 



-------------
"Always give people more than what they expect to get!"       



Stephanie.Price@SWFA.com   Customer Service/Sales


Posted By: lucznik
Date Posted: January/30/2007 at 18:36

I'm not sure I understand you silver... 

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

To make the .357 work you wind up with a bulky gun. 

 

Why does "making a .357 work" result in a bulky gun? My S&W M60 is much smaller than most of the popular service-grade autos.  In fact, I can often slip it into a good pants pocket and have it totally inconspicuous.  This despite the fact that it sports a 3" barrel and adjustable sights.  

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

You have to spend extra time getting the trigger control down. 

 

Most of the revolvers I have owned have had far superior triggers when compared to any of the autos I have had. Trigger control is much easier with these revolvers.

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

If you don't have alot of training time, then you will not get good results. 

 

This would seem to be equally true about any weapon, not just revolvers.

 

 

Don't get me wrong; if you prefer autos that's perfectly O.K. with me.  I just don't understand your logic for why the .357/.38 revolver is less than desirable.

 

 

It requires no more training to shoot a revolver than an auto.



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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/30/2007 at 19:11
Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

I'm not sure I understand you silver... 

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

To make the .357 work you wind up with a bulky gun. 

 

Why does "making a .357 work" result in a bulky gun? My S&W M60 is much smaller than most of the popular service-grade autos.  In fact, I can often slip it into a good pants pocket and have it totally inconspicuous.  This despite the fact that it sports a 3" barrel and adjustable sights.  

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

You have to spend extra time getting the trigger control down. 

 

Most of the revolvers I have owned have had far superior triggers when compared to any of the autos I have had. Trigger control is much easier with these revolvers.

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

If you don't have alot of training time, then you will not get good results. 

 

This would seem to be equally true about any weapon, not just revolvers.

 

 

Don't get me wrong; if you prefer autos that's perfectly O.K. with me.  I just don't understand your logic for why the .357/.38 revolver is less than desirable.

 

 

It requires no more training to shoot a revolver than an auto.

 

Lucznik,

 

I used to run Pin matches.  I'll disagree with you.  You have power, speed and accuracy.  As you increase power you reduce one of the other two.

 

 Let's go back to the Pin match this game was designed by Rich Davis of Second Chance fame, after he was in a gun fight.  This game takes most of the same skills as a gun fight, but does not focus on tactics.  You are not focused on just one target, but 5 targets, they all have to clear the table.  You are also playing beat the clock. 

 

So with a revolver you have four perfect double action shots if you are lucky. After a while the pins get loaded and it takes more than luck.   So you are focused on getting double action shots, while the rest of the pack is shooting single action auto.

 

Now, to decrease the reaction from recoil, I can load down the gun with say +p .38 or I can increase the weight of the gun like a L-frame or Python.  Recoil is what cuts your reaction time between shoots.  

 

I have worked with lots of new people on the range.  Yes this is a YMMV thing, but the trend is that anybody who could shoot well with a revovler after a few hours of instruction can shoot with an auto.  Many people who can't shoot well with a revovler can shoot well with an auto.  If I have people who are having a problem I hand them my tuned Hi-power and start watching the hits happen.

 

If you are having real problems with your auto then I can try and get you an appointement with Badlands Bill



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/30/2007 at 19:13
Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

I'm not sure I understand you silver... .

 

 

Don't get me wrong; if you prefer autos that's perfectly O.K. with me.  I just don't understand your logic for why the .357/.38 revolver is less than desirable.

 

 

It requires no more training to shoot a revolver than an auto.

 

Ok, lets start with the surf test.... There is a big reason no military power uses revolvers.  They get mucked up and they do not work.  They get mucked up and the are harder to get back in service. Remove the slide and shake.  Remove the side plate and pray????????

 

Now, let shoot a couple of guns without any hearing protection.. Just like if you were having a defencive shooting...  Revolvers make my ears ring harder and longer than a 9mm or .45.

 

How 'bout flash when its dark...  That revolver gap that makes more flash. That is a problem.  More powder get burned up in an auto.  Auto rounds are more likley to have flash reduction treatments applied to the powder. 

 

I can carry a Commander with less buldge than a J-frame; I have both. It is the width, in most cases rather than lenght that make a gun harder to carry.  The .357 likes longer barrel lenghts too.

 

Now, we can get to older arguments like a reloads.  More than one agressor... Lots faster 

 

How 'bout shooting on the move? You can shoot on the move or be flanked... Again, more shots so that you can keep moving and shooting is a good thing. Working the DA trigger  while shooting on the move can be done, but as a person with knee problems, it does make things harder to do.



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: lucznik
Date Posted: January/31/2007 at 16:29
Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

If you are having real problems with your auto then I can try and get you an appointement with Badlands Bill

 

Actually, I don't even own a centerfire auto pistol anymore.  At last count I had at one time or another owned something like 20 total auto-loaders.  I have sold off all of them.  Currently I own only two centerfire handguns.  The first is the aforementioned S&W M60 with a 3" barrel.  This is my "every day, everywhere" gun.

 

The second is a S&W M686+. This is more of a home (or camp) defense / recreational plinker / small-medium game hunting gun.  It only occasionally gets carried - and usually only when there is a definate purpose for having it. As far as reliability is concerned, I'll put either of these guns up against any auto made with complete confidence that the auto will suffer some failure to feed, cycle, fire, etc. long before the revolver will. These revolvers are also far more accurate than any service-grade auto I've ever handled. To get an auto to shoot as well as my revolvers would cost a bunch of time, effort, and of course money having it "tricked out."

 

Silver, I think you and I just look at this issue from a different paradigm.  You seem more focussed on LE/military-styled tactics (outflanking, shooting on the move, firepower, multiple-threat engagment, etc.)  While very popular in firearms training circles and to some very interesting, these are based on scenarios that are unlikely to be encountered by a civilian like myself.  In fact, in all my reading (and I do a fair amount,) I have never come across an account where a civilian had to deal with those kinds of issues.  In fact, I am unaware of any time when a civilian even had to do a single "tactical reload."  Oh, I'm sure it's happened sometime but, the point is that it's awfully rare. (Otherwise the NRA would be loudly and zealously using such events as further proof that everyone needs a gun.) That stuff is mostly fodder for the movies, not real life.

 

I live in the mountains and the most likely threat to me or my family is going to be in the form of a mountain lion or a rabid dog, fox, raccoon, rat, etc. or perhaps even a coyote, bear, moose, and/or potentially even a wolf or two. Sure, we have criminals too but, you don't generally find them wandering in large groups engaging people in protracted firefights.  A well placed shot (or two +) from a .357 has as much (or even a better) chance of solving any of the problems I am likely to encounter as does any auto pistol on the planet. The revolver can however, also be loaded to a much wider spectrum of performance from .38 cal target wadcutters that even my children can shoot to super-hot hunting rounds that are actually legal in some places for big-game hunting - even from my gun's relatively short 4" barrel (not that I encourage such use.) This allows for everyone from the rank novice to the experienced trophy-hunter to use the same exact gun for almost all their handgun shooting needs.

 

As far as the military is concerned; they aren't very often my choice for an example to emulate - especially not when choosing gear. For example, the military chose to downgrade their .30 caliber rifles in favor of the .223.  The theory was (in part) that the reduced recoil would allow for better marksmanship across the board.  Now, the move is underway to get rid of the 5.56mm rounds in favor of something bigger because of poor terminal performance in combat. Similarly, the military chose to issue Berretta 92s in 9mm as a replacement for the .45, which is another brilliant move that has proven to be largely a mistake and is now being rethought.

 

Even if you like their equipment, the missions in which the military employs their weapons are vastly different than the kinds of uses civilians are going to see.  Thus, the same equipment choices are not necessarily the best option.



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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?


Posted By: lucznik
Date Posted: January/31/2007 at 17:04
Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

 

Ok, lets start with the surf test.... There is a big reason no military power uses revolvers.  They get mucked up and they do not work. 

 

I have always had more difficulty keeping auto operating properly than revolvers. Autos require constant care, cleaning, etc.  Militaries use autos for two reasons:

1. Amount of available initial firepower (# of rounds.)

2. Speed of reloading.

Of course, a soldier very likely can find themselves in a position where both of these things are of grave importance.  Civilians, well... not so much.

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

Now, let shoot a couple of guns without any hearing protection.. Just like if you were having a defencive shooting...  Revolvers make my ears ring harder and longer than a 9mm or .45.

 

How 'bout flash when its dark...  That revolver gap that makes more flash. That is a problem.  More powder get burned up in an auto.  Auto rounds are more likley to have flash reduction treatments applied to the powder. 

 

I have admittedly never fired a gun in anger but, all of my reading has suggested that in the heat of a "defensive shooting" neither recoil nor muzzle flash were noticed by the one(s) doing the shooting.  I have fired handguns in the (relative) darkness and have not found the muzzle flash to be significantly different between revolvers and autos.

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

I can carry a Commander with less buldge than a J-frame;

Which is, of course, why the Commander framed 1911 is so commonly the gun slipped into a front pants pocket rather than the J-frame.

 

Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

 Working the DA trigger  while shooting on the move can be done, but as a person with knee problems, it does make things harder to do.
 

 

I'm not sure I understand what a person's knees have to do with pulling a double action trigger.  

 

Oh, and by the way, who said a guy has to shoot double-action?

 

Autos are certainly "en vogue."  All the cool people on TV and in the movies carry them and they sure look sweet as they draw them from concealment to engage the oncoming horde of terrorists advancing across the border.   I'm sure all of us should be as prepared as possible for when Jack Bauer isn't available to single-handedly save us all (except of course for those who have to die for the plot line to be furthered.)

      

 

I know that I'm just an old-fashioned geezer who will always be out of place among such highly trained tacticians and that my equipment is antiquated and a criminal/terrorist would just laugh at me if I ever did have to confront them with it. 

 

I'll just have to console myself with the knowledge that it would likely be the last thing they ever did.



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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/31/2007 at 17:36

Lucznik,

 

Way back when... I lived on a farm and agreed with you.  In fact my first hand gun was 686 for many of the same reasons you cited. 

 

Well as a young man I had to move to town to find work. I lived in a nice town and most people did not lock thier doors.  Then I had a guy dealing outside my window   After we got rid of him, I had a drug dealer move in directly up stairs from me.  So yes, answering the door at strange hours at close quarters does change your paradigm.

 

Out on the farm area now many of the thieves work in a pair so that they can carry off larger more valuable things and faster. YMMV

 

As note I helped RO an even sponcered by the Secret Service for LE Explorer Scouts at our local range.  They provided about 50 686s for us to use.  We have lots of 148 grain wadcuters. Some where after three hundred rounds the L-frame needed a cleaning from the unburned  powder.  We have a few lock up on us. A hotter round would have done better. YMMV



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: January/31/2007 at 17:59
Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

 

 

Silver, I think you and I just look at this issue from a different paradigm.  You seem more focussed on LE/military-styled tactics (outflanking, shooting on the move, firepower, multiple-threat engagment, etc.)  While very popular in firearms training circles and to some very interesting, these are based on scenarios that are unlikely to be encountered by a civilian like myself.  In fact, in all my reading (and I do a fair amount,) I have never come across an account where a civilian had to deal with those kinds of issues.  In fact, I am unaware of any time when a civilian even had to do a single "tactical reload."  Oh, I'm sure it's happened sometime but, the point is that it's awfully rare. (Otherwise the NRA would be loudly and zealously using such events as further proof that everyone needs a gun.) That stuff is mostly fodder for the movies, not real life.

 

 

My last close call had a van load of recent arrived workers want my delivery truck.  They had their van side ways on a bridge and were trying to stop traffic.  They had passed me then slowed down a couple of times while looking the truck over.  "A V-8 beats a .45" Louis Awerbuck. I droped it a gear and made a round them because there was not any traffic in the other lane.  Yep, that changes your paradigm...

 

When I was 14, people did an armed robbery a few miles away.  They thought that they were raiding a floating card game.  Instead the people were a family who were starting an Ad company who lived in a trailer, but drove Buicks to impress the clients.  Five people died, all but the mom who was wearing a wig.  They thought that they had blown a part of her head off.  So that set off the largest man hunt since the depression and John Dillinger (one of John Dillingers hidouts was also in our neighborhood). Then in the middle of all that somebody tried to kick in the people next to us door in.  Yes, that changes your paradigm...

 

YMMV 



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: lucznik
Date Posted: January/31/2007 at 18:40

I don't doubt your experiences silver but, all you've really done is to emphasize the need to be armed (and aware.)  As far as I can tell from the details you have shared, none of these experiences illustrates the need for more than the 5-6 rounds available in a small revolver.

 

Drug dealer on corner = 1 round expended with 4 remaining

Drug dealer upstairs = 1 round expended with now 3 remaining

Pair of bandits carting off with heavier stuff = 2 rounds expended with now 1 more remaining.

Group of "recently arrived 'workers'" = Utilized V8 power, no rounds expended, still 1 remaining.

 

Heck, I've just taken care of your first four scenarios and haven't had to reload yet.

 

You didn't say how many perpetrators were involved in the ad company murders so; I don't know if I should have reloaded or not after the last incident. 

 

Of course, I'm being facetious. (I would have reloaded after each one of them. )

 

I know of a guy who claims that his personal daily "defensive" battery consists of two full size Glock 21's stuffed with high capacity (13 round) magazines. He also claims to carry two full hi-cap reloads for EACH gun. That comes to a total of 80 rounds of .45 ACP that this guy feels he needs to carry "just in case."

 

Of course, I pity this guy if he ever uses those guns to hurt/kill anyone and then gets me as one of his jurors. I am as firm a believer in the right to keep and bear (and use) arms as anyone I know but, he would have a hard "row to hoe" to convince me that he was carrying a legitimate defensive battery as opposed to having gone out looking for an opportunity to engage in a protracted firefight.

 

I'm not saying you're like this guy but, I am suggesting that the average "enthusiast" tends to get carried away with all the "tactical" stuff available and fails to understand that far less is needed to handle almost all defensive tactical scenarios. 

 

 



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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: January/31/2007 at 21:58

Guys,

   You two sound like old ladies arguing over who makes the best pie.  I've owned and shot a Jarvis built 686,  (Had it done when he was still working out of is house garage) wouldn't even think about carrying that thing around with me.  I've had a couple of series 70 Gold Cups, Glock 23 shot bulleye, pin matches, ipsc, have had bad dudes on my door step, when they got the dead bolt unlocked I open the door the rest of the way for them. The .45 in my hands cured the problem.  The sheriff didn't like it much, but at that point I didn't care what he thought!!! My wife was scared out of her wits with 5 bikers trying to get in. Had one of them done something stupid all 5 would have died seconds later.  The only good gun is one you can use, wheel gun, or auto it makes no difference. are you able to hit what your aiming at?  and are you ready to use it.  My wife can out shoot most cops in this state, but in a tight, I worry. Your best weapon sits between your right and left ears.  If you use that first you might not need the second one. You both make good points. You only really need to be able to protect yourself for about 2 min. realistically. Your going to win or loose it that time frame. Don't belive me, think about it, How many shootouts do you see on TV (real life not fairy tales) I can only think of one. "Glendale" whats the odds that happening in my living room?  about the same as a UFO landing in the same spot. Every other civilian or law enforcement shooting that I know of is under 2 min.  Realistically knockdown power is whats need, If the weapon your shooting can't put him down, it doesn't really matter how many times you hit'em. Read the La salle case. Thats why I don't like a 9mm. Lots of killing power, squat in knockdown.  OK I'm done with my rant.  



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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: February/05/2007 at 20:26

I'm sure eventually Jeff Cooper will  rise from the dead and chime in here.........................

 

9mm-vs-45-vs-wheelguns Oh My!

 



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: February/05/2007 at 22:51
9mm??? Cooper didn't even consider that a firearm. Here's classic Cooper "I suppose there is a reason for these 40 caliber pistols. When promoting the Bren Ten, the purpose was increased power and effective range, but I have since discovered that excess power seems difficult to control for many people, and excess range is irrelevant to the pistol situation. Besides, the hot ten cartridge is no longer with us. We have the 45, which is generally a better round, so I see no need for the 40, except as a sales item."

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: February/06/2007 at 17:17

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

9mm??? Cooper didn't even consider that a firearm. Here's classic Cooper "I suppose there is a reason for these 40 caliber pistols. When promoting the Bren Ten, the purpose was increased power and effective range, but I have since discovered that excess power seems difficult to control for many people, and excess range is irrelevant to the pistol situation. Besides, the hot ten cartridge is no longer with us. We have the 45, which is generally a better round, so I see no need for the 40, except as a sales item."

 

 

Thus explains El Jeffes love of the the .38 super...



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: March/02/2007 at 11:38

Rem 870 with short barrle 00 3inch buck shot.

 

First grab gun then phone hit 911 lay phone down .find an semi ( to keep me hiding sorta) open place to see the majority of your house.

then just see what happens.

 

Don't ever turn the lights on.If you do you should send the up a flare at the same time.

 

 

Big



Posted By: smitty47
Date Posted: March/02/2007 at 12:07

Big daddy raises an excellent point... along the lines of using your head before you use your weapon.

I am a firm beleiver that any person has an intrinsic right to defend themselves, their family, and property against a malicious intruder. However, the laws in places like here (Cal) are stacked in your adversary's favor.

 

According to statute, a person is allowed to use force UP TO the force or threat of force being used against them. Translation: One is just in shooting and killing only if the imminent danger of their own (or their family's) death is apparent. To guard yourself against a knockdown, dragout, one word against another spewfest in the courst after teh fact, it is prudent advice to find barricade for yourself and family, dial 911 and leave the call active and close to you while you EXPLICITLY verbalize that the intruder either leave or be dispatched accordingly.

 

What happens after that point is up to the intruder and completely justifiable. After all, a father or motehr in jail will be of little more use to their family than they will be dead.

 

This, of course, assumes a single intruder (possibly 2) and assumes that you have the advantage of barricade, or at least seeking cover while dialing. If that is not available... so be it... shoot to kill and sort it out later.

 

That said, I go for my Kimber 1911. With a trained operator behind the trigger, it will dispatch the unwelcome at least as efficiently as a 12ga, while being less likely to be grabbed and taken away rounding a corner as it can be kept closer to the body.

 

In a protracted situation with multiple threats (i.e. homeland invasion scenario, however unlikely) my one go-to would be a 6.5 Grendel AR equipped with a 2.5-10 or 1.5-6 (ish) optic and back up BUIS. Remember, in this type of situation, you will need a game-getter in addition to a defensive weapon. That, IMO, would be the vest do-it-all candidate.



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Exterior Ballistics held equal, he who shoots last shoots best (or just had better optics)


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: March/02/2007 at 12:21

yes always plane for the worst and except nothing but the best..

 

I have tought about if this happened to me ever since i built my house.

 

 1st If i just started shooting i would blast thru the wall of one of my kidds room.I wouldn't never do that my life would go first before that happened.

2nd it will give you time to see if there is one 2 or maybe even 3. 

3rd if you waint and let it play out a little more u might be able to get away with a wounding shot.

4th  if you lay the phone down with out saying anything you will see a great responce time.and it might just record what happens for later use in cout.

5th and as always like my uncle(x military cook lol) say a dead man can't talk and i have a none regersterd gun some where.

 

I know this is a big issue this day and time.I hope this might help some.

 



Posted By: jonbravado
Date Posted: March/02/2007 at 12:22

i like my odds w/ my rem 1100 (5 buckshot) and the home court advantage..........

 

i pitty the fool......

 

but if the adversary is of the weaker nature.......a shot from my single shot 16 guage sounds like the end of the world to

anything at the business end of it.

 

J



Posted By: anweis
Date Posted: March/02/2007 at 14:49

A Rem 870 with short barrel and buckshot for home. 

AK for out. Scope - nyet. Bayonet - Yes.



Posted By: Narrow Gap
Date Posted: March/02/2007 at 16:49
Sig Sauer P220 .45 ACP with Crimson Laser Grips


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: March/03/2007 at 20:41
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

yes always plane for the worst and except nothing but the best..

 

I have tought about if this happened to me ever since i built my house.

 

 1st If i just started shooting i would blast thru the wall of one of my kids room.I wouldn't never do that my life would go first before that happened.

 

*several good points deleted so that they may be focused on by themselves*

 

 

Have you thought about hardening the walls?



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: March/05/2007 at 06:40

 

Silver wrote

Have you thought about hardening the walls?

 

Silver,

that could be an option.But it is on the 2nd floor and if i went and starte hardening the walls (with seel and concreat) then everyone would have think i fliped my lid.but i would have one sterdy house well maybe a (fort) at that point

 

So i just got an alarm instead.

Big




Posted By: silver
Date Posted: March/05/2007 at 09:26

 

 

Big Daddy,

 

How about this instead... A bookshelf along a good part of the wall. It would only need to go up to about five feet, that would hide the sheet of 1/4"steel  Or thick tile backer board.  Maybe a some Advantek(sp) metal lathe, thin set mortar and tiles or fake stone.  You can fill the fill the walls with pea gravel, but that makes for a lot of extra weight.  You could just pick out a part of the wall and put some patio blocks under the sheet rock.

 

Hey, you were trying to add some outlets and tore up the sheet rock fishing the wires...It was faster and cheaper just to tear it all out and start over... Tell the wife she gets new paint and new carpet

 

While it is best to stop the projectile cold, if you can get it velocity cut down to where it does not penatrate the skin you have made goal.  Over the years of playing around with stuff for years I can tell you that even a thin sheet of soft metal, will drastically cut the amount of damage a projectile do.  Thin layers of metal layered to make up the same thickness as sheet can work even better in some cases.

 

Once you break up the bullet some then it stops much easier.  Even plain fiberglass insulation used for noise control helps slow bullets.  Compressed fiberglass with resin has been used to help armor things like judge's stand in court rooms.

 

Get some scrapes from a job site or lumber yard and play around.  Make some "mini" walls and shoot them.  BTW Glue lams do not stop bullets



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: March/05/2007 at 10:09

Silver,

 

i though about walpapering the up stairs with kevlar.The cost was a little but much for me.

I have actually thought of pouring sand in the walls but then the weight would be to much.Then the 2nd florr would become the 1st floor.my wife dose want a one level but i don't think she would want it on her car.Then she would want to drive my monster truck whitch she say i can't see out of.I don't think i like that much ether.

 

 

 



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: March/05/2007 at 10:49

 

 

Big Daddy,

 

What about just focusing on some choke points instead of the whole up stairs?  One of my friends has a designated dry fire spot that just happens to be in the those choke points he need to control. 

 

One of my friends installed a light on his stairway that can be easily changed but not shut off.  To help keep his teenagers from sneeking in or out. I have a motion detector night light that could also work for such.

 

Btw things only have to take a couple of shots.



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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: March/05/2007 at 10:56

Silver,

 

i do have an alarm instaled on ALL windows and doors,But when it gose off you still have the chance of someone running in grabing someone to shout it off.Thats where the inside trickie stuff falls into play.and from my bedroom i can see the only 2 ways in the upstairs.The back door and the stairs comming up.So if i did need to shoot i have a 3x10 or so lead way of an open shot but thats the worst case thing that could happen.I'm slao good at throwing a knife so that might be a thing to looka t also.

 

Reading some of thing i wrote make me seems so mean and wiked,but it's a fact of life we all have got to look at.

 

Big



Posted By: longbow308
Date Posted: March/08/2007 at 17:51


45acp Kimber custom 2 with stright 8 night sights
230 gr. +p hollow point


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longbow308
Aim small Miss small



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